Fetal tissue and how it has advanced medical science.

originally posted by: IAMTAT

originally posted by: dukeofjive696969
So weve got 2 nazy references, a bunch of childish comments, and where only on page 3.

It seems difficult for some people to understand, and abortion is a medical treatment that is decided between the women and her doctor, i love free speech and all , but damn people love to share how outraged they are when it does not affect them personaly.

Oh and stem cell research, is helping us the living live longer and cure diseases, to learn anout the human body.

How do you know people here haven't been affected deeply? Are you omniscient?

Someone very close to me, in my family, had an abortion when she was a young woman. Today she regrets it as the greatest mistake of her life. She prays for forgiveness from God every night for the life she feels she killed...and wonders every day who that child would have grown up to be.
Just because you are able to to be so cavalier about it...doesn't mean everyone else is.

Well, I know several women who have had abortions, put children up for adoption and raising children - the consesnus among my woman friends (many more then one) is that abortion is the least tramatic of the three options.

I suspect your young friend is tramatized by her religion and the shame rained upon her by her 'brothers & sisters" and not the actual abortion.

You know what shames women and causes endless grief to them: not being able to take care of thier children by reason of poverty or addiction, youth and immaturity, general lack of support from family and community. It's the things they are often required to do to support and care for their childrent.

When you go out and adopt a crack baby (as two friends have) care for it full time, pay for all the special education, specail health care and commit to caring for that child for the entirity of their life - then you can speak to the trauma of abortion.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: beezzer

Though umbilical blood also contains quite a lot of stem cells and could also be used without harming anyone.

Those are a different kind of stem cell. Embryonic stems cells are special.

Yes they are. Embryonic stem cells can go cancerous at the tip of a hat.

Cord blood, bone marrow and adult stem cells already have the genetic switch for accelerated growth switched off and are much less likely to turn cancerous.

a reply to: IAMTAT

lol....my favorite personal story is about the women I knew, she was a little mentally off, could be way off if she wasn't on her meds. well, somehow this women managed to get pregnant while being institutionalized. the meds they were given her were quite harmful for a developing fetus and well, it was pretty certain that the fetus would have severe problems. so well, she wouldn't consent to an abortion and her doctors had to go to the courts to get permission to do the abortion, which they got, and the abortion was done. but it really screwed this lady up!!

so, let's see what we can glean from this little story here....
one....state have been known to force abortion onto women when THEY see the need for it..
two...some medications can really mess up a baby....
and three...some women, really need those medications to remain functional in the world!!

so well,
let's say that a women does indeed a harmful medication to remain functional....
oh I don't know maybe treatment for cancer....
and she happens to become pregnant...
what do you prefer??
we deny her the medication because well, if will harm the baby?
we allow her have the medication and let the fetus develope abnormally to life a short life of pain and misery?
or
well we allow the abortion.

but, well, really if the truth be told, our view of abortion is irrelevant to this discussion. abortion is legal, and unless you can convince the legislatures and the supreme court it should not be, it will remain legal!
the discussion is about the stem cell research, and well, how the stem cells are obtained...
which there are laws that regulate it. and well, till someone in higher authority than us peabrains on ats actually does a thorough investigation and finds that those laws were violated, I will assume they weren't!
so, if anything, either the people that find this so offensive should be either calling for a real investigation or they should be telling their legislators to change the laws, or both....
so why are they all ranting about the women who are having the abortions (quite legally) and planned parenthood, who if they are making a profit and I would like to emphasize the word if here, it's peanuts to what stemexpress is making or the research companies will be making when they actually find the cures!
personally I don't really care about the research, personally, I think the gov't should pull all the funding that they are sending to the healthcare industry. but luckily for the rest of the american population my personal desires don't amount to a hill of beans in the grand scheme of things!
I just think that people are way off base if they expect a women to sacrifice her ability to function in the world for nine months, or to earn the funds she needs to ensure her family can have their needs met, or to accept that she will be living the rest of her life with a permanent disability, or sacrifice her life, because well.....
you know, some among us seem to think that just because she was born a women, well it's only natural that she would do all in her power to protect that baby that is growing inside her!!!

heck, close to half the US population wouldn't hesitate to start beating the wardrums calling for us to start bombing innocent people living in another country if the politicians told them that the country was a threat to their life, their families, their way of life!!

just because we are women doesn't mean we don't have the same instincts to preserve our health, our families, our way of life!

originally posted by: FyreByrd

originally posted by: IAMTAT

originally posted by: dukeofjive696969
So weve got 2 nazy references, a bunch of childish comments, and where only on page 3.

It seems difficult for some people to understand, and abortion is a medical treatment that is decided between the women and her doctor, i love free speech and all , but damn people love to share how outraged they are when it does not affect them personaly.

Oh and stem cell research, is helping us the living live longer and cure diseases, to learn anout the human body.

How do you know people here haven't been affected deeply? Are you omniscient?

Someone very close to me, in my family, had an abortion when she was a young woman. Today she regrets it as the greatest mistake of her life. She prays for forgiveness from God every night for the life she feels she killed...and wonders every day who that child would have grown up to be.
Just because you are able to to be so cavalier about it...doesn't mean everyone else is.

I suspect your young friend is tramatized by her religion and the shame rained upon her by her 'brothers & sisters" and not the actual abortion.

So you presume to know her feelings and her regrets more than she does?
My "young friend" is a middle-aged woman now and I love her very much...and you don't know a damned thing about her or how much pain and regret over aborting her child has caused her over the years.

Stick to your pro-choice propaganda if it fits your own worldview...but don't presume to know what is in somebody else's heart and mind. You don't get to go there.

originally posted by: IAMTAT
...but don't presume to know what is in somebody else's heart and mind. You don't get to go there.

...and nor do you get to push your stance on others, in what is a very personal and emotionally-laden choice.

Morals? Are transplants unmoral? Would it be right to say to a child who needs stem cell treatment to survive "sorry we just found out your treatment is from an evil woman who aborted her baby this has to stop you will die".
Like I said you are not going to stop abortion let some good come from it.
I hear bleating but I never hear solutions anti choice people come on you want to ban abortion? how unless you force women to do so? you want that? put a woman in a place where she is forced to carry a child? or not?.
Educate people better and we will see abortion rates decline.

a reply to: IAMTAT

Go on then tell me your solution what do you want to happen with the law to do with abortion and fetal tissue research?.

a reply to: boymonkey74

You're a brave monkey, and I applaud you. I thought about a thread such as this, but they warned me:

Okilly Dokilly

The irony of a Ned Flanders-themed band doesn't escape me either...

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
The Bible teaches that the human soul is imparted into the human vessel at the first breath.

Smells like an agenda to me...

It also clashes with countless eyewitness testimonies of those who have seen millions of babies in Heaven that died in childbirth.

I'll take the word of an eyewitness over someone's biased theology any day.

Marietta Davis and Colton Burpo are a few examples.

Colton Burpo's case for example, he died and met his own unborn sister that he never knew EXISTED.

In heaven, children are there, all the ones who died young, in childbirth, or were aborted.
Link

"In 1988, evangelist Jesse Duplantis was taken up into Heaven. While he was there, he saw a multitude of small children, singing and praising God as they played little harps. When he asked the angel who had brought him there who they were, he was told they were the children the earth did not want. As Duplantis watched these children, who appeared to be from three to ten years old, he realized that they were children who had been lost to abortion. The angel explained to him that these children longed to see their mothers come to Heaven and be reunited with them." Link

"This dome," said my guide, "is the place where all infants from earth are gathered for instruction. The outer buildings are the nurseries where they are first brought, to be nourished by their guardian angel."

"Whenever an infant dies on earth, the guardian angel who brings it here considers all of its abilities and places it with others of similar ability. According to its artistic, scientific or social abilities, each is given a home best suited to the development of its gifts."

Nine Days in Heaven: The Vision of Marietta Davis: Dennis Prince, Nolene Prince

CAUGHT UP TO THE INFANTS' PARADISE

"I believe all she says is true. (Marietta Davis) I too was able to see where the infants are. Everything she described was as I saw it. But I saw and was told more specifically they were all the babies that were born and died, and miscarriages and abortions. I was only allowed in that one room, I was not allowed to travel around like she was. When I was there, I was at home. That is where we belong. Make every effort to get there." Link

"Colton, still 4 years old, told his mother “you had a baby die in your tummy didn’t you”, which completely shocked them both because they had never told him about their miscarriage. They asked him how he knew and he said that he met his sister in Heaven and she told him what happened."

"Well he’s 7 years old now and it took a couple of years for his parents to really understand what happened, but when Colton Burpo was four years he was having surgery in the hospital for a burst appendix. While he was in surgery he apparently had some sort of out of body experience and could see what his parents were doing. He witnessed that his dad was praying and his mom on her cellphone. Both parents say they have no clue how he knew that, but that it’s absolutely true. And the story just gets more interesting from there.

Apparently during the same surgery Colton went to Heaven where he recounts how he met his grandfather who he had never known, who he later recognized in photos. The interesting thing is that he didn’t recognize photos of his grandfather as an old man with glasses, which is how everyone knew him, but rather as a young man. Colton’s father literally had go find a photo of ‘Pop’ as a young man before Colton was able to recognize him. Now that’s pretty wild. Link

a reply to: aorAki

It's like to some the world is so black and white...either good or bad.
Bad can come from good things and good can come from bad things, we have to be grown ups and accept women have and always will have abortions.
Instead of looking at why women have abortions and understanding their reasons some wish to call them murderers.
Demonise the woman keep that woman in the house make her carry a child.
Much of this from us men...how we can even empathise and understand what women go through while pregnant...I really don't think we have any say in it at all I don't think we have the right.
I would love to hear solutions but I just hear bleating....sad isn't it?.

a reply to: boymonkey74

Twelve years ago, my partner at the time had an abortion. It's something I feel sad about, of course, but it was necessary. She would have lost her life if she had carried to full-term. If, in some small way, the research can save lives, enhance lives and cetera, then I am at peace with our decision. Even without the research I am at peace. I would rather she is here, alive, than have a child (which, at the time of the abortion was not a child, nor a baby. It was a foetus, and it was not sentient. The science backs this up).

Go on, judge me. I can stand tall and look myself in the mirror.

originally posted by: Murgatroid

Smells like an agenda to me...

What an utter load of twaddle that post was.
I applaud your consistency and bull-headedness in the face of everything else





but I also consider what you posted to be evangelical mind-control, bordering on child abuse.

originally posted by: aorAki
What an utter load of twaddle that post was.

Ohhhh careful, let me help you up my friend...

a reply to: Murgatroid
meanwhile god gives kids cancer....

originally posted by: IAMTAT

Today she regrets it as the greatest mistake of her life. She prays for forgiveness from God every night for the life she feels she killed....

^^^that is the crux of the issue and the major source of her regret/guilt right there

Your argument reminds me of the experiments on the Jews done by the nazis... They were horrible, but we did learn some things from them... Does that make it ethical and right no matter how great the outcome?

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

A pull qoute from this article...

"Benefits to Society

Despite the arguments that the Nazi experiments were unscientific, the data does exist. Although the data is morally tainted and soaked with the blood of its victims, one cannot escape confronting the dreaded possibility that perhaps the doctors at Dachau actually learned something that today could help save lives or "benefit" society.

Author Kristine Moe suggested that by using the hypothermia experimental data, "good" would be derived from the evil:

"Nor, however, should we let the inhumanity of such experiments blind us to the possibility that some "good" may be salvaged from the ashes."31

What kind of "good" could be salvaged from the victims' ashes? What societal benefit, if any, could be so compelling to justify using the Nazi data? Arguably, when the wickedness of the experiment has been very great, then only a colossally important objective can justify its use. Those that wish to use the data have to satisfy the burden of proof, which becomes greater in proportion to the wickedness of the experiment."

Graffik

a reply to: boymonkey74

Fair play monkey, this is a great post and delivered with only good intentions I believe. Once you've seen one of your loved ones with Alzheimer's. You would do anything to take it away, it's such a cruel disease that takes away people's dignity, the people you have loved you all your lives like your grand parents or parents. It is devastating to see the ones who have cared for you and been such important members of the family reduced by these illnesses. All the memories of happy times are replaced with images of a grandparent in a care home, who doesn't even recognise you.

a reply to: GraffikPleasure

So are we comparing people who have an abortion to Nazis now?.

originally posted by: beezzer
scientific advances are great. But there is always a line that cannot be crossed.
It differs from person to person.

That's where *Freedom of CHOICE* comes in?

However there are very many people who want to deny that CHOICE

to those with different views?

This kind of research is essential, so is abortion in some cases.