MH17: 'Russian missile parts' at Ukraine crash site

a reply to: Wasta

See how these people are liars.

Unlike the Russians who always tell the truth...oh wait.

If a buk was fired, it was far before the crash / crashside.
And only hollow words, no proof is shown,

I guess you missed the fact that Russia's own expert on the BUK has said it was indeed a BUK...that expert being the manufacturer of the BUK.

The west is already cornered and make things only worse.
I am Dutch, my people have died.

Unlike RUssia who is blocking the real truth from being shown.

Then if your Dutch why are you not outraged at Russia for trying to keep the truth from being shown?

But this showcase is a shame, I am very deeply ashamed by my own government,
I am proud to be Dutch, but can not stand the way this mh-17 case has been handled.

Why because it sheds the light on the real culprit...So what exactly is the problem with the investigation?

The sanctions, the punishment, while we know the truth.
The very fact that the truth has to stay a secret tells enough.

Yes, but the sanctions had nothing to do with MH 17 as they were in place before that tragic situation.

And your right, Russia is doing it's best at keeping the truth hid.

If we could blame Putin with proof, we surely would do so, but we can not.
We are to blame,
The forces the west has put in power is responsible.
So we are to blame,

They are trying to get the truth out, but when a certain President hinders that the truth will just take longer to be seen.

You do understand that it was the people of Ukraine who put this government there not the west.

No, we aren't.

We have the blood of the victims on our hands.

No the people that did this have that...

Parts of a russian missile at the crash site.
Bullocks!

Hard to refute the people who would know...like say the manufacturer that says it was a BUK that brought the plane down.

These stupid commands make things even worse, it proofs we are lying again!
If parts of a buk were found they should have been found at the place of impact.

You do understand that at the point of impact the airliner was destroyed at 33000 ft and spread over miles, so your going to have parts of the warhead fall with the plane all along the debris field.

They did not find any parts of no buk what so ever!
If true the parts would have been shown.

Of course, because investigator's always give out their evidence before the investigation is done...it doesn't work that way.

They were not found before, so is any parts are shown, they are placed as false evidence.

You do understand how difficult this investigation is right?

WHo placed them there?

I have issues, but if I spoke Russian, I would be glad to leave the Netherlands, lease these liars and join the truth in Russia!

WHy does not speaking Russian stop you, as there are many who don't and still live there...follow your dreams.

Russia and the truth...

Potin should protect everybody till the river don and make sure, that between the Don and Dnjepr is demilitarised, so Russia has a buffer from Nato.

Seems a bit funny when Russia was working along side NATO up until Ukraine and Putin didn't have a problem then...Also you should know Russia has NATO countries bordering Russia and never cried about that then...so why is he having problems now?

The world is sick and tired of all those false flags again and again.

And yet you want to go to Russia where their president pulled one of the biggest false flags by bombing apartment buildings to back his reason for going to war in Chechnya...but I guess that's okay because Russia is the good guy's, right?

A stupid thread.

Because you don't agree this is a stupid thread...Amazing.

a reply to: Wasta

""Where is he afraid of""?

EVer hear of the Hague?

a reply to: Zaphod58

If I were going to plan that mission, how far the intercept point was from the launch point of the fighters might be critical. And the closer the better, if one were flying a 25 lightly fueled with minimal weapons load, including cannon ammo.

It could be done, depending upon resources.

a reply to: dragonridr

If it were a really hot fighter pilot, if he had the right angle on the steady cruising airliner, close in cannon fire would be pretty concentrated.

And the line creased on the top of that outboard section of the left wing was perfectly lined up with the cockpit. It was one round out of maybe 100 that perfectly creased the top of the wing, for just that fraction of a second, as happens with such dynamic actions.

I wonder if the 27 had altitude and angle on the airliner, they used cannon first and AAM next, or vice versa?

a reply to: Salander

An Su-25 would have to be in firing position before MH17 arrived at the location. It's not fast enough to catch it so it would already have to be there waiting. And would have to be right on top of it to even hit the thing with that cannon. The muzzle velocity is so low it wouldn't be able to hit at all at any kind of range.

A cannon still isn't going to cause an instantaneous break up of the target aircraft though. Neither would an air to air missile. The data recorders didn't record any impacts and immediately shut down, indicating a sudden breakup of the aircraft.

a reply to: Salander

Even concentrated cannon fire isn't going to cause a 777 to explode into pieces without leaving a trace on the recorders.

Getting the rounds to hit in a tight area isn't as easy as you think though. I've seen cases where even against slow flying level targets the gun hit 5-6 rounds out of 50-60 fired at the target.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Salander

An Su-25 would have to be in firing position before MH17 arrived at the location. It's not fast enough to catch it so it would already have to be there waiting. And would have to be right on top of it to even hit the thing with that cannon. The muzzle velocity is so low it wouldn't be able to hit at all at any kind of range.

A cannon still isn't going to cause an instantaneous break up of the target aircraft though. Neither would an air to air missile. The data recorders didn't record any impacts and immediately shut down, indicating a sudden breakup of the aircraft.

Yes, but for the 27 it would be a cake walk.

And I've never flown either, but I'll bet somebody really good in a light 25 could do it.

a reply to: Salander

It doesn't matter how light it is, the 777 cruises faster than the top speed of the -25. And that still doesn't change that fact that even hitting the target with that gun would be extremely difficult at best if not almost impossible.

And it still wouldn't tear it apart as fast as it did.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

""I guess you missed the fact that Russia's own expert on the BUK has said it was indeed a BUK...that expert being the manufacturer of the BUK. ""

When I go with parts of a missile to it's manufacturer, any manufacturer wil say, yes, those parts are from the missile we make, does not proof a thing

""Then if your Dutch why are you not outraged at Russia for trying to keep the truth from being shown? ""
The safety board of the Netherlands makes every country sign a nondisclosure agreement. We keep the truth from the world. Thanks to Russia we know the last sound when the canonfire entered the cockpit was "" a sound like being in a shredmill""

""You do understand that at the point of impact the airliner was destroyed at 33000 ft and spread over miles, so your going to have parts of the warhead fall with the plane all along the debris field. ""

There is a engine found (could be the engine that the same plane from the canonfire shot with a air to air missile. and on an other place a piece of the cockpit was found. So mh-17 was not destroyed at impact, but lost a engine and the piece with the canonfire along the long way down. The rest of mh-17 was as a plane a whole, when it crashed.

The crash of the mh-17 was captured on video from a very close distance, just 1 engine missing, the cocpit part that missed was at the other side. Mh-17 did not brake apart in the sky.
It just lost 1 engine and a small piece of the cockpit, the famous piece with the bulletholes.

The fact that Putin flew over the same route as mh-17 at that time, the plane of Putin is famous for spoofing.
The reason given by flightcontrol when mh-17 was send on a new course was ""because we have three of them"".
Looks to me that 3 of the same transpondersignals and the spoofincapabillety's of Putin's plane is likely to be connected.

I did not see a wing here and the tale a mile further, an other wing an other mile further, a big piece of the cockpit again a mile further.

It's just a engine (likely bij the air to air missile, and a little piece of the cockpit that was lost on the way down.
No breaking up of the plane in the air.

I know a thing or two about planting false evidence.
With a letter we make the same paper, use the same chemicals, spectrographs and labs exine the arabic gom, and make a exact copy, we make the same ink, use the fingerprints as false evidence and place even dna, just to fool a spy, fool a judge.
The falsification of evidence is on a very high level in our little country.

Colin Powel had better evidence , when he came with the major from Irak, the conversation between those militairy , the moving plant on the truck, the buildings. Now that was solid proof, facts and witnesses. More then enough to invade Irak, because we had proof of hidden weapons of mass destruction.

I know ""van Anraat"" sold in order of our secret service, a basic material that could be used in the making of chemical weapons. But fertilizer aswell.

Paid by our aivd.

We are masters in making false evidence, and play with a very small budget at the same level as NSA and GCHQ

""Unlike RUssia who is blocking the real truth from being shown.

Then if your Dutch why are you not outraged at Russia for trying to keep the truth from being shown?""

It is our safety board, that makes any country involved sighn a nondisclosure agreement, so we keep the truth hidden, not Russia

""Yes, but the sanctions had nothing to do with MH 17 as they were in place before that tragic situation.""
there were sanctions because of the retake of the Krim, but new sanctions were placed because of MH-17

The finding a parts of a buk at the crashside is crap evidence,
The place where the parts have supposingly been found at the crashside, shouls have been found at the place of impact.
Anyone could have placed parts of a nike or patriot at the crash-site , crappy and sloppy evidence.
This writes ""false flag"" again.

I just gave a few reactions to be polite, but am sorry that you can not convince me otherwise.
I stay with the fighterplane, the scratchmark on the wing and bulletholes and the simple forensics that comes with it, and thus the conclusion, that nor rebels, nor Russia could have shot the canonfire at the cockpit.

And to leave the very ground I was born on, just because of the lies of a few, is kidding myself.
My live is here. I am Dutch!
Most of my friends and even stranger do think the same as I do.
Just a few, who trust the news, wikipedia etc and are naïve to believe in the innocence of the Netherlands. low educated people believe we are not guilty.

So just leaving is betrayal of my friends and my fellow countryman.

I know you're point of view, you know mine.
You can not convince me and I can not convince you.

I ain't got the time to repeat myself or to go in circles.

This is a waste of time. I waste yours and you waste mine,

So I am not going to react anymore.

Not just you, but I have the same message for everybody.

Today I got angry.

So got emotional,

When I get angry and emotional I lose energy.

So to shut the drain of energy, I will talk face to face with friends and strangers.

At a forum like this there could be paid spy's.

They seem to have got the time, but I have other things to do.

I have to protect myself from myself.

The energy I lose is not worthy of the topic.

My view is steady and did not change, I only got more encouraged, that I was and am right all along.

But my temper, my emotions do ask energy I am not willing to give.

Good luck with others, but I am out of here.

Regards !

a reply to: Wasta

Once again you're proving you have no idea what you're talking about. Part of the fuselage was found over five miles from the main impact site. This aircraft was in no way intact when it hit the ground, or even anywhere near the ground.



The only way to get a debris field that large is a high altitude break up.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

The fony international court, you mean?

Where Milosovic was killed?

Where he got the anti malaria medicine, that made his own by the doctor described medicin not functional.

Even Saddam stood a better chance, in a court of only sji-ites and not one soeny, murdering the Layers of Saddam and even Chance the Judge, that court was fair. In the hague is no justice.
Milosovic was murdered by a bunch of loud monkey's, just as Saddam was.

If anyone should be in The Hague is it the bunch of crooks, who have killed many civilians in Irak.
But the Hero who showed just a few of those killings is hunted like a rabbit or duck.

www.youtube.com...

at 55 seconds we have the patriot act, new laws that came after 9/11

An other false flag...

Not a invention of Heinz Kissinger, those gulf of Tonkin and another false flags.

But if there should be someone standing trial at the international court, it should be Kissinger. not Putin.

But this a bey bey note.

I decided that I am wasting my time here, so...

Regards.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Wasta

Once again you're proving you have no idea what you're talking about. Part of the fuselage was found over five miles from the main impact site. This aircraft was in no way intact when it hit the ground, or even anywhere near the ground.

The only way to get a debris field that large is a high altitude break up.

Possible debri does not count, leaving just 2 others sides with debri before the crash-side

A engine seems debri to me, like a piece of the cockpit does, with bulletholes,

But I am wasting time, told it already.

The lies about dedri spread over many miles...

Some parts of the plane have to be close to the cras-side.

Before the crash items and people were sucked out of the plane.

The crime-side is between the first place of debri, the second place and the crash-side itself.

All distraction.

The point is that nor Russia nor the rebels could have shot the canonfire at the cockpit.

The only phrase I was willing to talk about, but distraction, derailing, buk and other distraction still keeps the canonfire at the cockpit standing.

Everything seems to be discussed, except the canonfire what could not have came from a plane from Russia.

So lets blame the rebels, who flew at the same level according to the scratchmark and bulletholes.
The rebels don't have planes, but let's blame them anyway.

The only thing of importance is the cockpit with bulletholes, everything else is distraction.

So good buks to you too, I am leaving.

Regards

a reply to: Wasta

So the tail, which was found five miles from the impact site was possible debris? The aft fuselage found three miles away was possible debris? The debris field is well documented and large pieces were found miles from the impact site.

graphics.wsj.com...
humanrightsinvestigations.org...
www.dailymail.co.uk... anger-victims-bodies-STILL-remain-morgue-train.html

The debris field, including large pieces covered 8 square miles.

originally posted by: Wasta

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Wasta

Once again you're proving you have no idea what you're talking about. Part of the fuselage was found over five miles from the main impact site. This aircraft was in no way intact when it hit the ground, or even anywhere near the ground.

The only way to get a debris field that large is a high altitude break up.

Possible debri does not count, leaving just 2 others sides with debri before the crash-side

A engine seems debri to me, like a piece of the cockpit does, with bulletholes,

But I am wasting time, told it already.

The lies about dedri spread over many miles...

Some parts of the plane have to be close to the cras-side.

Before the crash items and people were sucked out of the plane.

The crime-side is between the first place of debri, the second place and the crash-side itself.

All distraction.

The point is that nor Russia nor the rebels could have shot the canonfire at the cockpit.

The only phrase I was willing to talk about, but distraction, derailing, buk and other distraction still keeps the canonfire at the cockpit standing.

Everything seems to be discussed, except the canonfire what could not have came from a plane from Russia.

So lets blame the rebels, who flew at the same level according to the scratchmark and bulletholes.
The rebels don't have planes, but let's blame them anyway.

The only thing of importance is the cockpit with bulletholes, everything else is distraction.

So good buks to you too, I am leaving.

Regards

That's because no one believes it was cannon fire there was no cannon fire to the aircraft. Only missile damage. Your arguing a point that doesn't match the evidence. It's like walking into a murder seeing a gun laying on the ground and a dead body with bullet holes and your arguing it was done this a club.

On any investigation you have to match the facts to uncover the truth. You can't ignore the facts because you don't like the implications they make. By the way where did these magic bullets go any way apparently they didn't find any in the plane? Where they made of some too secret polymer and disappeared? And how come they made different sized holes? Most not even close to round or big enough to be from a 20 mm cannon. I really think you have no idea just how big they are. On one of the Russian sites they showed a pic of a guy putting a pencil in the hole and calling it cannon fire. Comical when we know the rebels where shooting at the plane with ah 47s.

They obviously didn't think about how big a 20 mm round is either. They won't make small holes and they won't make rips or gashes they make holes. Only shrapnel is going to tear into the aircraft.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Wasta

So the tail, which was found five miles from the impact site was possible debris? The aft fuselage found three miles away was possible debris? The debris field is well documented and large pieces were found miles from the impact site.

graphics.wsj.com...
humanrightsinvestigations.org...
www.dailymail.co.uk... anger-victims-bodies-STILL-remain-morgue-train.html

The debris field, including large pieces covered 8 square miles.

I pointed this out earlier cannon fire isn't going to rip the cockpit from the fusalage. Also isn't going to leave burn marks on the airframe. There is no way to explain the location of the parts and the burn marks without a large explosion of high explosives. You know like a buk that has 180 lbs of it.

a reply to: Wasta

Do you believe the witnesses who say they saw a plane? They are the only evidence that another plane was involved. They all claim they heard an explosion. An explosion, not cannon fire. Why is that, do you suppose?

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Salander

It doesn't matter how light it is, the 777 cruises faster than the top speed of the -25. And that still doesn't change that fact that even hitting the target with that gun would be extremely difficult at best if not almost impossible.

And it still wouldn't tear it apart as fast as it did.

Altitude=energy you know, and how heavy or light an airplane is has very much to do with performance and maneuverability.

Hitting the target might be difficult, but somebody got a lot of lead into that cockpit.

And with a 27, it would be a cakewalk.

a reply to: Salander

...after it crashed.

a reply to: Salander

Yes, altitude = energy because you can dive and accelerate. That's not going to get an Su-25 fast enough to catch up to a 777. You can make it as light as you want but that wing and fuselage have an absolute top speed no matter how light it is.

You keep completely ignoring the fact that guns don't cause planes to explode no matter their caliber. They also don't slice cockpits off.

Yeah it would be easier for an Su-27. Funny that every single person trotted forward claiming it was a Ukrainian fighter says Su-25 though.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Those peasants I saw interviewed did not know a 25 from a 27 is my bet.

You seem to keep ignoring the fact that MY theory is combination of AAM and cannon. But that's cool. We're both just speculating.