animals knew the water was coming!

riley- dont you see my point? you have a belief system as well. evolution and secular theology are beliefs not facts! thats what i have is a belief in christian science and god. you have a belief in evolution and secular science. i cant understand why you wont just agree to that? i have to have faith to believe what i believe but science christian science backs me up. you have to have faith to believe what you believe but secular science backs you up. i will give you this, you are in the majority....but i ask you do numbers of people all doing the same thing or believing the same thing make them right? is it the majority that decides the accuracy of truth? if it is then we have trouble, throughout history people have gone in large groups down very wrong paths. my only point here with you, is to get you to say that your belief is a faith,backed by secular science. if you will admit this then you can understand that you live by faith, you have faith that god is not real, you have faith that he will not judge your sin, you have faith that there is no heaven and no hell, in these cases you have to have a very strong faith because as it would seem to me, the stakes are pretty high,,, its your eternal soul we are talking about! so to believe as you do you must be 100% sure right? i mean you would not want to miss the (boat)!!!!!!!!!!!!
all pun intended! in noahs day they had to have faith that noah was crazy, that god was not real, that they would not be judged for their sin, that hell and heaven did not exist, they succeded at their belief all the way up untell the earth started throwing open the flood gates of the deep and raining, i bet they were angry with god then...why???? they do not believe in him and yet when the crap hits the fan they blame him!! let me ask you this, have you ever pleaded for your life? in a hospital bed? in an accedent? have you ever pleaded for someone elses life a (child) a family meamber? who do you talk to?? who are you pleading with? i tell you inside the soul of every man there is that which knows his creator, that knows who to call. if you have not been there then you will, if you have then you know! why is it that when people are afraid they call on the name of jesus? all their life they avoid him, try to dis prove him, but when they are in real need to whom else do they go???? your faith in secular theology is based on a world viewpoint meant to distract you into eternity, there is an enemy of your soul and he wants you!! i just say put up a fight, look into the other side, you may find that your faith is lacking something, truth!! i guess if you will not admit that you have a faith theory then there is no point for us to go back and forth, i dont wish to fight, and i am tired of the argument so if you want to talk about faith in theory, i can do that. otherwise i will have to step out of this circle of debate.

Originally posted by ninki
riley- dont you see my point? you have a belief system as well. evolution and secular theology are beliefs not facts!

Secular theology? :shk: It actually has scientific evidence to back it.. 'christian science' [oxymoron] has some secular facts to back it.. and some made up ones. Hardly reputable.

thats what i have is a belief in christian science and god. you have a belief in evolution and secular science. i cant understand why you wont just agree to that?

The information you have thus far provided has not been scientifically accurate. The christians who have provided that 'information' did not research the facts themselves [as in archalogical digs/ observation/ lab studies etc] and have taken them so far of context that it is missleading.. so I fail to see how they can call themselves 'scientists'.

i have to have faith to believe what i believe but science christian science backs me up.

Christian science would also insist that the earth is the centre of the universe.. Ninki.. that is not science.. it is a contradiction.

you have to have faith to believe what you believe but secular science backs you up.

I take it that 'secular science' you mean anti god? No. It's just science. There is not such thing as 'christian science' as they already have the conclusions and try make facts fit them when they don't.

i will give you this, you are in the majority....but i ask you do numbers of people all doing the same thing or believing the same thing make them right? is it the majority that decides the accuracy of truth?

Ninki.. do you believe we are the centre of the universe?

let me ask you this, have you ever pleaded for your life? in a hospital bed? in an accedent? have you ever pleaded for someone elses life a (child) a family meamber? who do you talk to?? who are you pleading with?

f# excuse me? Yeah I have. I almost ended up a quadropledgic.. and no it was not god that prevented it. It just so happened my spinal cord was not severed. I pleaded to myself to gain the courage to get through it. I also pleaded with someone to put down a shotgun.. for about 6 hours. There are many other examples- like when a child's life is in danger- [pretty disgusting you asked that as I may have lost a child] but I'm not going to disclose them. Nice try going for the raw nerve there Ninki. What.. if I said someone died would you have said 'but you didn't plead to god'? I find it pretty distastful that you played the emotion card.. perhaps in future you should hesitate before trying to open strangers' emotional wounds with a view into just trying to convert them. This is apparently a method cult leaders use.

i tell you inside the soul of every man there is that which knows his creator, that knows who to call.

Yes and I respect nature. It created me.

if you have not been there then you will, if you have then you know! why is it that when people are afraid they call on the name of jesus? all their life they avoid him, try to dis prove him,

Oh I get it.. so you assume that all science is just out to attack your faith? Scientists are not interested in dissproving Jesus. I am not interested in dissproving Jesus. It is not relevant to me. If I want to read his words- I will. I could become a christian again if I so wanted to.. but I still would not [need to] believe in god.

your faith in secular theology is based on a world viewpoint meant to distract you into eternity,

What? No it isn't. When I was a kid and thought adam and eve were silly and so researched it.

there is an enemy of your soul and he wants you!!

Condemnation is not christian Ninki.

i just say put up a fight, look into the other side, you may find that your faith is lacking something, truth!!

Fight what? Facts? Knowledge? Shall I believe in Santa Claus as well Ninki just in case not believing will send me to hell? Or are you assuming that I must be 'evil' just because I respect science?

i dont wish to fight, and i am tired of the argument so if you want to talk about faith in theory, i can do that. otherwise i will have to step out of this circle of debate.

You are actually the one who keeps posting up and losing the same old arguments.

[Edit.] Whilst I am dubious to the motives of your personal questions.. in hard times I do become more 'connected' to a more universal energy.. the core of my being. It is not a creator god though. It is like the the light of a flickering flame in a black room. Life is what I believe in.. and it has it own divine power.

[edit on 16-1-2005 by riley]

well there you have it riley, you have it all figured out! i brought up god in the midst of trouble to remind you that we seek him when we need him, that is not to say that he answers the way we want! i do believe that many christian scientists have done the same work as secular scientists and have put in time, but have come to entirely different conclusions, and the conclusions reached are not liked or talked about by the masses
here is a list for you to look into!

Robert Boyle
Michael Faraday
James Joule
William Thompson a.k.a. Lord Kelvin
Johannes Kepler
Carl Linnaeus
Matthew Maury
James Clerk Maxwell
Samuel F.B. Morse
Isaac Newton
Blaise Pascal
Louis Pasteur
Sir Henry Rawlinson
George Stokes
Joseph Lister
John Ambrose Fleming
Henri Fabre
John Ray
Nicolaus Steno
William Petty, Georges Cuvier, Louis Agassiz, Gregory Mendel, Bernhard Riemann, Joseph Henry Gilbert, Charles Lindbergh, Thomas Anderson, William Mitchell Ramsay, John Ambrose Fleming, Werner Von Braun, John Coach Adams, Johann Baptist Cysat, John Woodward, Humphrey Davy, George Biddle Airy, James Bradley, and Albert Einstein, Leonardo Da Vinci, John Dalton, René Descartes, Jean Baptiste Biot, and Richard Kirwan

Originally posted by ninki
well there you have it riley, you have it all figured out! i brought up god in the midst of trouble to remind you that we seek him when we need him,

No. You did it to try win an argument and stir up emotions of grief. I find that disgusting.. even more so as I lost a very close fried who was like a daughter to me over christmas. Yeah- sure hit the jackpot there Ninki.

that is not to say that he answers the way we want!

Oh I get it.. if you pray and things don't work out.. it's 'god works in mysterious ways' :shk:
And if you actually bothered to READ MY POST I didn't mention GOD.. especially not a creator god. I mentioned an energy. It is what connects me to every living thing. It is this that has me appreciating those who are still in my life.

As for that list.. Einstein was actually AGNOSTIC.. and Leanardo was PAID to paint holy pictures.. and was nearly charged wih heresy [I think he may have been for disecting corpses]. He seemed to be a christian half the time.. [keeping the patrons happy] and an atheist the other.
www.straightdope.com...
So where does this bring us? Unfortunately, not to a definite answer. The likeliest explanation, after reviewing what I've found, is that Leonardo was a theist of some sort, probably a Christian. He was not, however, beholden to the Roman Catholic world view in all of its beliefs (which probably accounts for Vasari's statement). He believed in scientifically testing claims to knowledge, and came up with some results that the Church would not have liked. Meanwhile, though, he painted godly portraits that the Church did, indeed, like. His views aren't as clear-cut as some might wish, in part because, well, he was human, and like many humans not entirely consistent in his views.

riley- you always disect every aspect of my post why? you also assume what i mean by twisting my words, i am sorry about your friend, and yes i do believe it was gods will, because we are not going to live forever here and one day our number is up! i dont know if you are realy interested in talking or more debating? i am interested in talking about creation and faith, i dont want to argue about my intentions.....i wish you the best in your life, and i pray you come to the knowledge of the true light and life his name is jesus! its hard to find sanity on this site, it seems lately to be taken over by realoritt and arky i am not sure i am into talking to people like that, they only act spiritual but lack any depth....later man

Originally posted by ninki
riley- you always disect every aspect of my post why? you also assume what i mean by twisting my words,

I assume nothing. I read what you wrote.. in the context that it is in. I went through every point made.. rather than having to write an entire essay and try address every point within it. By now I am used to your language.. and I can see what angle you're going for. If you were genuinely concerned about my feelings rather than just proving god.. [which seems to have been your intention irrospective of other people's beliefs] ..you would not have asked me about the deaths of loved ones in the first place.

i am sorry about your friend, and yes i do believe it was gods will, because we are not going to live forever here and one day our number is up!

Gods will huh? :shk: She did not die of natural causes and was just 20yo. What you call 'god's will'.. I call life.. and life is what you make it. Seems too many are wasting time waiting for god to save them when they could be saving themselves.. and people waste time praying for someone instead of getting in there and actually helping them. Not all believers do this but when they do it's a cop out.

i wish you the best in your life,

You too.. and thankyou for your simpathies.

and i pray you come to the knowledge of the true light and life his name is jesus!

Ninki. For the last time.. that is YOUR truth.. not mine. Why can't you accept that? Jesus is not for everybody. So long as people's beliefs are based on love and compassion.. and not hate and condemnation, that is all that matters.

its hard to find sanity on this site, it seems lately to be taken over by realoritt and arky i am not sure i am into talking to people like that, they only act spiritual but lack any depth....later man

I can appreciate the positive aspects of christianity.. and any religion for that matter. Problem is when people try FORCE their beliefs on others it becomes deisive and causes war. Some.. like Ark and realoritt take it to more of a distructive extreme.. as you can see by the state of the world this is dangerous. You, I admit, do not take it to that extent.. but.. you have tried to impose it as well. It should be only the message that matters. Why insist people convert? What was Jesus' basic message?:
Love one another.
Why focus on who said it? Why does this matter? Would it matter to Jesus or would he just like to see people living in peace with eachother? Why not just appreciate other belief systems that already share the same sentiments? They are already practicing what Jesus preached.. so they don't need to be converted.

i think you can do both! you can act and you can pray, i advise you do that in reverse order!! i also believe that if you profess faith and do not have actions to back you up then you are dead (spiritually) just as works without faith is dead. you dont believe in god? how do you supose we all got here? did you read this thread? The Can of Worms!!!??? just in case here are some questions for you,
what was the beginning? (the genesis) what was the first thing? the very first thing?where did it come from?( if you believe there was a bang! then where did the stuff for the bang come from?)
Where did matter come from?
When, and how did life come from non-living matter?
When, and how did life learn to reproduce itself?
what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce?
How did the intermediate forms live?
Which evolved first? The digestive system, or the food to be digested?
The drive to reproduce or the ability to reproduce?
Do you honestly believe that everything came from nothing?
How could the first living cell begin?
In order for a living thing to survive, its whole system and all its organs must come to be at the same time! why a mouth with no stomach? why a heart with no blood? why a brain with no nerves? why a kidney with no bladder? why a liver with no stomach or intestines? rather i should ask how????

jump on this thread please if you have answers!!

Wow. I just love this thread. I have been following it since the first post, and I am very glad I have. This was my first look at ATS, as I found this site through a link to this thread.

I can't use the phrase, "It changed my life", but it did help cement my feelings about the subject of Noah's Ark and the foundation upon which the Bible rests.

Long live science, baby.

Matrixsvigil,

I am assuming that your favorite and most enlightening part was the live field report from Seapeople? Correct?

I know, I know....Nobel Prize......

[edit on 1/24/2005 by Seapeople]

I wanted to give you, riley, and cheeser (forgive me if I spelled your names wrong or forgot a person) each a metal. It was amazing--your ability to continue to argue without getting too angry.

Although, ninki and bearmaw7, I would love to chat with you two sometime. You both seem very interesting.

-P.C.



[edit on 1/24/2005 by MatrexsVigil]

[edit on 1/24/2005 by MatrexsVigil]

thanks, sorry i havnt been posting guys, ive been on holidays... i start skool tomorrow