animals knew the water was coming!

Originally posted by ninki
cheeser- everyone knows its not a bear! but thank you for enlightining us! Darwin was a pretty smart guy huh? well i tend to think he was greatly confused! block headed, and was into inbreading! dont sound smart to me! here are other statements made by darwin, i believe, Natural selection may explain the survival of the fittest, but it cannot explain the arrival of the fittest!!!! DARWIN QUOTES
"Though no evidence worth anything has yet, been advanced in favour of a living being, being developed from inorganic matter, I cannot avoid believing the possibility that this will be proved some day"

"My theology is a simple muddle; I cannot look at the universe as the result of blind chance, yet I can see no evidence of beneficient design"

"yet hoping (only hoping without any proof) that it will some day be proved, believed that the first living beings were born spontaneously, from inanimate matter!"

he then went on to marry his cousin and took a swim in his own gene pool! i dont believe what he claimed!

please, please, please.
I wouldnt care if Darwim had Down Syndrome. do you know that one of the greatest painter, designer, scientist, futurist and thinker of his time had Dyslexica, Stephen Halkings, on of the greatest minds of our time has Motorneuron disease. Clearly a scientific theory shouldn't be judged on the mental/physical stat of the author. I find it very ignorant for such a statement. It being very unfair and biast. please. Your pratically saying *darwin as inbreeding, hes a crackpot, dont believe him*.
dont wonna get to worked up, but sheeze.
You have to think about it, its really just the perception of reality, darwim obviousally saw it to marry his cousin alright. here something that might get you worried.... worried more about Darwin marring his cousin - Sex between sisters and cousins was normal and some King married his Sister or Daughter(www.1000and1.de...). Common ninki, be fair, your just making excuses. DARWIN HAD SEX WITH HIS COUSIN SO HE MUST BE WRONG.
you do know that what darwin was doing was not acceptable in his society, there would of been much ridicule, an hay darwin didnt even know about DNA, so how could he be fully confident with his brilliant idea?
I see the currently theory of natural selection and i agree with it, dispite who the founder of it was.
So what if Darwin didnt even believe in evolution himself, so what if he was confused. What difference does that make to the THEORY itself? nothing i would say. I wouldnt matter if it came to him in a dream, it wouldnt matter if it took him a lifes work, it wouldnt matter if the pope came up with the theory of evolution. It doesnt change the theory. - why do i say this. Because your quoting what darwin said throughout his life that points away from evolution. But yet you dont understand that i along with many, educate ourselves about the biological theory of natural selection, and it makes sense to us.

it makes sense to us, it makes logical sense.

its the theory of *natural selection*, not the theory of *if darwin doesnt believe in his own theory, why should anyone*

common, think a little

ps. you say darwim as confused, i think your confused, you believe in natural selection/survival of the fittest.
Sealpeople did ask you those question.

Originally posted by ninki
Seapeople-#1 every evening suns twinkle at us across the vast expanse of our galaxy, a massive ensemble of hundreds of millions of stars all gravitationally interacting, a beautiful dance, each star making its own sound, sort of like an amazing orchestra, i bet they dance for a reason!!
I cannot see exactly what you see in the night sky seapeople because i am not you, but i truly do appreciate the wonderfully beautiful universe we live in!!!
#2- jesus last words on the cross "It is finished, Father; into your hands I commit my spirit." and "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
# 3- the reason jesus said father why have you forsaken me? i will bet is the statement that bothers you! jesus said this because he had become the scapegoat, he took on our sin and felt true death for us! the seperation of himself and god, for a moment. he tasted true death so that we do not have to!
# 4-back to your statement of christians not bringing up obvious arguments against evolution, here are some obvious points that i love! only because i love probability studys!
THE POSSIBILITY OF A SINGLE CELL COMING INTO EXISTANCE BY CHANCE is 10 TO THE 262 POWER THIS IS THE PROBABILITY OF A MICROPLASM HOMINISH39 (the smallest known cell) coming into exhistiance by chance!!
The probability of a single human cell coming into existance by chance are 10 to the 119,000 power a number so high we cannot even comprehend it!
SIMPLE PROBABILITYS
right kind of galaxy for life- 1 in a thousand
right kind of star- 1 in a billon in acceptable galaxies
right kind of solar system- 1 in a billion
right kind of plannet for life-1 in 10 billion in an acceptable solar system
right kind of planet inside of the universe- 1 in 10 quadrillion quadrillion
likely number of actual planets- 10 billion trillion
the probability of a life friendly planet existing anywhere in in our universe-1 in one thousand quintillion,quintillion,quintillion,quintillion,quintillion,quintillion,quintillion
the probability of a chaotic bang creating a stable universe hospitable to life- 1 in a billion trillion

Mathematicians consider any event with a probability of less than
1 CHANCE IN 10 to the 50th power as having a zero probability
(it is impossible)
IT IS BELIEVED THAT THERE IS NO CHANCE FOR IT HAPPENING!!

PRETTY COOL STUFF !! THAT IS JUST A SMALL AMOUNT OF THE PROBABILITYS THAT I HAVE LOOKED UP!! SO NOT BRINGING UP THE OBVIOUS? WELL NOW I HAVE AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO.

Exobiology
do you kno anything of it?

you wouldnt have a clue.
have a look at this.

Weak AP
The fact that we can observe physical and cosmological quantities and see that they are apparently 'tuned' for our existence is simply due to the fact that if they weren't, we wouldn't be alive to notice this fact. There should be no deeper meaning read into this fact.

Strong AP
The Universe must have cosmological constanst which allow life to develop within it at some stage in its history. Because:
There exists one possible Universe 'designed' with the goal of generating and sustaining life that can observe the universe
or...
Observers are necessary to bring the Universe into being (Wheeler's Participatory Anthropic Principle - this is related to quantum mechanics)
or...
There are an infinite number of universes that exist, each with different cosmological constants. It stands to reason, therefore, that at least one will have the right constants for life to exist. This may be related to the 'Many Worlds' interpretation of quantum mechanics.

Final AP
Intelligent information-processing (life) must come into existence in the Universe, and, once it comes into existence, it will never die out.

which one could overdo your probabilities? (without god)

*There are an infinite number of universes that exist, each with different cosmological constants. It stands to reason, therefore, that at least one will have the right constants for life to exist. This may be related to the 'Many Worlds' interpretation of quantum mechanics.*

this is saying, dispite the probability, life will arise.

so please dont get all...

*PRETTY COOL STUFF !! THAT IS JUST A SMALL AMOUNT OF THE PROBABILITYS THAT I HAVE LOOKED UP!! SO NOT BRINGING UP THE OBVIOUS? WELL NOW I HAVE AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO.*

its childish, if anyone was going to be childish, i thought it would be me, im 16 and bearly literate.
please.

PLUS.
Have you heard of Chemosynthesis, id gather not. quite interesting acturally. I dont believe in your probabilites anyway, can you please give me a link where you got them from. This is how life might first of arrived.
you should read it, you might learn something.
www.ibiblio.org...

The *Drakes Equation* is very well known and when solved, we'll truely know the probability for life to arise.

Drakes Equation = N = R* x fp x ne x fl x fi x fc x L

www.ibiblio.org...

its more reliable scientifically for the probability of life than you *probabilities*, and just if you acturally read it and are wondering. Some exobiolist/astrologists have estimated 40 advanced civilisations like us in our milky way

interesting




[edit on 12/17/2004 by cheeser]

Originally posted by cheeser
its childish, if anyone was going to be childish, i thought it would be me, im 16 and bearly literate.
please.

Only sixteen? You 've certainly got a brain on ya.. [especially for your age]
I hope you are doing well at school.. you could go very far in life.

Sorry- just an observation.



Oh f# I just sounded like an old fogie..


[edit on 6-1-2005 by riley]

Cheeser- no doubt you have got a intelegent mind for a 16 year old!! it is unfortunate that you kick against him the way you do, god created your mind and you choose to use it to build up walls of dis- belief in his his existance, could be he has great things for your 16 year old mind, i would give it over to him as soon as posible so you can start to live out the life god has for you!
Darwin was off because he was off, not because of his preference in mate!
YOU STATED:
Some exobiolist/astrologists have estimated 40 advanced civilisations like us in our milky way.
I SAY:
good for them! i dont give a ratts whoo!! you have BROKEN PIECES OF PROOF FOR YOUR THEORY !! and i am sick of talking to you about the FACT THAT WHAT YOU HAVE IS A THEORY !!! you will not admit that you have a theory, and so whats the point of arguing, you think you have the facts!
so go ahead and run with them untell your all burned out, because that is exactly where life without the truth will lead, its a no where land, paved with excuses and lies, with no one who cares and no one who knows, an empty existance, and a waist of a beautiful mind....


SEAPEOPLE-when jesus said "E'lo-i, E'lo-i, la'ma sabach-tha'ni?" He quoted in Aramaic because he wanted to direct our attention to Psalm 22, where we could see that he was fulfilling this prophetic psalm.
God had forsaken Jesus because Jesus, on the cross, became sin!
Christ, our High Priest and Sacrifice, was conveying, �I am the Lamb. This is the Passover. �
As both our High Priest and spotless sacrifice, He is "reading" a Passover psalm.
The significance of the question the Lord is posing, is to get us to think!! For instance, God said to Adam, �Adam, where are you?� It is because God lost track of Adam? No, of course not. God knows everything!!! He wanted Adam to think about where sin had brought him. God asks question not because He doesn�t know, but because He wants us to think about the significance of what the question evokes.
So when Jesus said, �Why have you forsaken me,� He was inviting all those who were watching Him on the cross, to consider why He was there!! ( It was a rhetorical question) Why was the Father separated from the Son? It�s because the Son was taking our sin; He was taking our place. Jesus was forsaken of the father for us, for our sin!!

Actually Ninki, that was an acceptable and well thought out answer to my concern. Good thinking. It does though bring us in full circle to God's true knowledge again. If God knows everything, including the future. Why then, would he even create me, knowing that the choices...well not choices but path, would take me to hell? He loves me, yet before I was ever conceived he knew I would go to hell. And as far as christians are concerned, God creates all life. He plans every one and has a hand in it. Why then, why would he bother to even create hell. He created the choices that lucifer would make. The choices that eve was to make. I don't mean he created free will for them to choose, but rather he fabricated the actual choices before they were ever alive. Their is no other logical conclusion if God knows everything. There is no way around that.

Again I will refer you back to the last words. You did give a good answer that made me thing on why he asked about being forsaken. However, you still did not adress the issue of his true last words. I think most all people would agree that a person as important as Jesus would accurately have his last words recorded. Yet we have 3 completely different phrases. Another thing you did not adress is the apostles. There are 12 apostles refered to in at least 2 gospels. 12 people who followed in the path of Jesus. I don't mean following his path as you do, but rather in a literal sense. Whereever Jesus went, as did they. Why is it that we cannot say for sure the names of these people? It is because they are different from one gospel to the next. How is it that we can take anything literally from the gospels with these problems.

Want another one? When Jesus rose from the dead. What happened? Who found out? How did they find out? Was the stone removed from the tomb? Was the tomb still closed? Was there an earthquake? Was there an angel in the tomb? Was there two angels? Was there no angel? Was the cloth covering Jesus missing? Or was it still present? Give me one story that is consitent between all four gospels. I challenge you to do that, without changeing what you read.

You wont be able to give me one answer. Yet this is supposed to be the single most important event in the life of Jesus.

[edit on 1/6/2005 by Seapeople]

SEAPEOPLE-
# 1 why would a loving god create hell? if he created our choices then he knew what we would do right?

The Bible speaks about a place of final judgment for those who do not believe in the salvation provided by Jesus Christ. This place is known as hell. It is not a geographical place, but a state of existence. Jesus spoke of it as a place of eternal punishment.
Your incorrect assumption is, that a person who is "destined for hell" has been predestined for hell by God! That is false. People choose to go to hell rather than submit their lives to God. You have absolute free will within the confines of your personal ability!!!!
God says that we are all without excuse, so He provides witnesses of his plan, to give us a chance to change our minds, but he does not make up our mind for us!
When people think about the "perfect" plan for life and human relationship to god and what they think God "should have done," most people turn the ideal people into robots, since they would have no choice at all. (everyone plays nice and goes to heaven!)
Hell is separation from God!!!!
so hell is a product of free will created by our decisions!
hell has a purpose on earth, and it is, to turn us to God as we realize the separation from God in our minds.
and hell has purpose in death as a judgement, god is a god of love and a god of justice, the two are in total corilation, you cannot have one without the other.

# 2 If you read the gospels, as jesus is dying he says many things and each author records pretty much the same thing, no where in the gospels does it say "and this was jesus last words". alright i will go through each one!

Matthew- "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which means, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" he then proceeds to recount the death,with details about christ needing a drink, then says that ,again jesus cried out and gave up his spirit...it does not say what he cried out that last time or that he asked for a drink!! he cried out something and he was offered a drink but the details were not encluded.

Mark -says "eloi,eloi,lama sabachthani" then talkes about the death ,then talkes about the drink then says "with a loud cry jesus breathed his last"

luke- "father into your hands i commit my spirit" and when he had said this he breathed his last.

John-"it is finished with that he bowed his head and gave up his spirit"

OK DO YOU SEE THE POINT? MATTHEW, MARK, JOHN ALL SAY THAT WITH A LOUD CRY HE BREATHED HIS LAST, OR GAVE UP HIS SPIRIT. LUKE IS THE ONLY ONE WHO WROTE DOWN WHAT WAS IN THE LAST BREATH "FATHER INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT..YOU SEE, ALL OF THEM NOTED THAT WITH A LOUD SIGH JESUS GAVE UP HIS GHOST! ONLY LUKE SAYS THAT IN THAT BREATH WAS ALSO THE STATEMENT "INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT" THEY ALL SAID THE SAME THING!!! READ IT AGAIN YOU WILL SEE IT!

i gotta fly i will answer the next 2 as soon as i got time!!! sorry i realy do have to go!!

animals have great instint that we have lost along the way...
i think the only thing we have left is the "sixth sens" and we ususally ignore it anyway...

i know ppl are gonna think im crazy but im used to it so what the heck...

about 2 years ago, i had a "presence" in my house and my dog was the first one to notice. he would stare at the corner of my room, shake and growl... he would not do that anywhere else but there and always at the same corner........ well the fact is the "presence" was sent away and the dog stop shaking??? not only i know my dog felt it but im also sure he SAW whatever it was on that corner....

so go ahead ... call me NUTS !!! LOLOLOL its the mooshine !!! :w:

Again, I have to ask you simply this. If God knows everything, including the future as you have stated before, then there is only one possible result. There will be a whole lot of small choices you make tomorrow. God knows what you will choose right this very second accrding to you. So tomorrow, when you make that "choice", wouldn't that mean that it was destined? God knew yesterday what you would do.....that means that today you did what you were supposed to do...and thus you could have no free will.

Originally posted by ninki
you will not admit that you have a theory, and so whats the point of arguing, you think you have the facts!

correct me if im wrong, quote me if im wrong. but ive been pritty cearful that i havnt said whats theory is acturally fact.

and what is the point of arguing your side aswell, you only have a theory as i do, not fact...

what are you saying about me not admiting *i* have a theory?
i admit its a theory, 'i admit the theory of evolution is only a theory'. can you admit this to? that your believe/faith is only a theory? not fact

Here is an exmaple where you are being hipocritiacal, something that you have stated, which you�ve clearly stated as fact when its acturally just a theory or faith� whatever you wonna call it.

Originally posted by ninki
Hell is separation from God!!!!

-this is indirectly stating that there is a God- theory
-this is indirectly stating that there is a hell- theory
-that hell is separation from god(assuming they both exsist) -theory

this was only a five word quote, and I have found no facts, just beliefs?
DO YOU AGREE WITH THIS?

FACT dictionary meaning. www.dictionary.com

1. Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.
2.
a. Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed: Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact.
b. A real occurrence; an event: had to prove the facts of the case.
c. Something believed to be true or real: a document laced with mistaken facts.

THEORY dictionary meaning www.dictionary.com

1. A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.
2. The branch of a science or art consisting of its explanatory statements, accepted principles, and methods of analysis, as opposed to practice: a fine musician who had never studied theory.
3. A set of theorems that constitute a systematic view of a branch of mathematics.
4. Abstract reasoning; speculation: a decision based on experience rather than theory.
5. A belief or principle that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment: staked out the house on the theory that criminals usually return to the scene of the crime.
6. An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture.

So are you just arguing fact or theory?
I would say it leans more to theory, than more to fact. dont be hypocritical.


[edit on 12/17/2004 by cheeser]

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by cheeser
its childish, if anyone was going to be childish, i thought it would be me, im 16 and bearly literate.
please.

Only sixteen? You 've certainly got a brain on ya.. [especially for your age]
I hope you are doing well at school.. you could go very far in life.

Sorry- just an observation.

Oh f# I just sounded like an old fogie..

[edit on 6-1-2005 by riley]

nah im acturally pritty adverage in school overall. im good at math and science based subjects, i really enjoy them. but ill doubt ill ever get a good *end of school score*, i stuff around to much in class and im shocking at english (never read a novel in my life) and just about all the other subjects.
i got a short term memory like a fish...
o-well, thats life, lol

i got VCE over the near to 2 years(Victorian Certificate of Education).
wish me luck!


[edit on 12/17/2004 by cheeser]

CHEESER- ok cool man you agree you have a theory! good and i agree i as well have a theory, i have said this before! i guess it was riley who would not admit to having only a theory.

SEAPEOPLE-
# 3 the apostles are
Simon (Peter) - Fisherman from Galilee, Andrew's brother
Andrew - Fisherman from Galilee, Peter's brother
James - Son of Zebedee, brother to John; from Capernaum
John - Son of Zebedee, brother to James; from Capernaum
Philip - From Bethsaida
Bartholomew (Nathaniel) - From Cana in Galilee
Thomas (Didymus) - Possibly also a fisherman
Matthew (Levi) - Tax collector in Capernaum; son of Alphaeus, possibly James's brother
James - Son of Alphaeus, possibly Matthew's brother
Lebbaeus Thaddaeus (Judas) - May have taken the name Thaddaeus ("warm-hearted") because of the infamy that came to be attached to the name Judas
Simon (the Cananite) - From Cana; one of the Zealots, Jewish revolutionaries who opposed Rome
Judas Iscariot - From Kerioth, and possibly the only Judean among the twelve, *was the betrayer of Jesus and committed suicide by hanging
Matthias - *After Jesus's ascension to heaven, the eleven Apostles met in the upper room where they were staying and cast lots to decide between two disciples, Matthias and Joseph called Barsabus, who was surnamed Justus. Matthias replaced Judas Iscariot to bring the Apostles number back to twelve

#4 if he knew what we would do then why is it called free will?
ok, just because he knows what you will choose does that mean he took your free will? NO . it simply means he knows the end from the beginning, he is willing that all should be saved! but it is possible to have your name blotted out of the lambs book of life! so the choices are up to you,it is your own decision,your own will! just because i know that my son will grow up to be a man, and look like his daddy does not change the fact that he could choose to pierce his eyebrow, grow out a mullet and start bringin back the 70s! i know and love him and yet he makes his own choices, he is mine! i had him, i love him ! i want him with me always but he can make his own mind up! (do you see the thing i am getting at?) love requires choice!
ok this day is so crazy i gotta go again but answer # 6 comes tomorow THE RESURECTION TIMELINE, I AM WORKIN ON IT FOR YA!

CHEESER- ok cool man you agree you have a theory! good and i agree i as well have a theory, i have said this before! i guess it was riley who would not admit to having only a theory.

SEAPEOPLE-
# 3 the apostles are
Simon (Peter) - Fisherman from Galilee, Andrew's brother
Andrew - Fisherman from Galilee, Peter's brother
James - Son of Zebedee, brother to John; from Capernaum
John - Son of Zebedee, brother to James; from Capernaum
Philip - From Bethsaida
Bartholomew (Nathaniel) - From Cana in Galilee
Thomas (Didymus) - Possibly also a fisherman
Matthew (Levi) - Tax collector in Capernaum; son of Alphaeus, possibly James's brother
James - Son of Alphaeus, possibly Matthew's brother
Lebbaeus Thaddaeus (Judas) - May have taken the name Thaddaeus ("warm-hearted") because of the infamy that came to be attached to the name Judas
Simon (the Cananite) - From Cana; one of the Zealots, Jewish revolutionaries who opposed Rome
Judas Iscariot - From Kerioth, and possibly the only Judean among the twelve, *was the betrayer of Jesus and committed suicide by hanging
Matthias - *After Jesus's ascension to heaven, the eleven Apostles met in the upper room where they were staying and cast lots to decide between two disciples, Matthias and Joseph called Barsabus, who was surnamed Justus. Matthias replaced Judas Iscariot to bring the Apostles number back to twelve

#4 if he knew what we would do then why is it called free will?
ok, just because he knows what you will choose does that mean he took your free will? NO . it simply means he knows the end from the beginning, he is willing that all should be saved! but it is possible to have your name blotted out of the lambs book of life! so the choices are up to you,it is your own decision,your own will! just because i know that my son will grow up to be a man, and look like his daddy does not change the fact that he could choose to pierce his eyebrow, grow out a mullet and start bringin back the 70s! i know and love him and yet he makes his own choices, he is mine! i had him, i love him ! i want him with me always but he can make his own mind up! (do you see the thing i am getting at?) love requires choice!
ok this day is so crazy i gotta go again but answer # 6 comes tomorow THE RESURECTION TIMELINE, I AM WORKIN ON IT FOR YA!

Originally posted by ninkibut there are many things in this world that i do not believe are beautiful..here is my short list......... dahmer

You'll have to change your opinion, I'm afraid.

In jail, he met a Christian minister and converted and repented and accepted Jesus shortly before he was murdered. So, according to your faith, he will be waltzing with you and others in heaven.

...though probably most of his victims won't.

(yes, I'm serious. Google up the story if you like. The minister was quite proud of his efforts. And since Dahmer was gay, then of course the boys he picked up were ALSO gay... and you can take the logic from there.)

...and an ON-topic reply to the thread title:

Actually, there are heaps of dead animals in the tsunami areas. If you google up the news stories, you'll see lots and lots of mention of this (once you knock out the "sixth sense" reports.")

The "Sixth sense" stuff came from two reports from reporters at a resort area where, indeed, they would have chased all the animals OUT of the resort (except, perhaps, for birds and the occasional cat or lizard) and out of the resort area.

Originally posted by ninki
CHEESER- ok cool man you agree you have a theory! good and i agree i as well have a theory, i have said this before! i guess it was riley who would not admit to having only a theory.

But remember ninki, my *theory* has alot more scientific *FACTS* to back it up than your theory, you cant argue this. My theory is based on science; scientific experiments, scientific observations... observations in general. Your theories heart is mostly derived from a book, a book written a long time ago, sections coming from second hand information, parts without total confidence of accurate cultural and langauge translations, many inconsistancies, parts that defy logic, stories that go against fact. a book written bye people whom believed the world was flat, in the centre of the universe. had no clue or other theory of how the sun could rise every morning...

this is why i believe in evolution, a logical theory to me, not what i see as a fairy tail- what you believe in

[edit on 12/17/2004 by cheeser]

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by ninkibut there are many things in this world that i do not believe are beautiful..here is my short list......... dahmer

You'll have to change your opinion, I'm afraid.

In jail, he met a Christian minister and converted and repented and accepted Jesus shortly before he was murdered. So, according to your faith, he will be waltzing with you and others in heaven.

...though probably most of his victims won't.

(yes, I'm serious. Google up the story if you like. The minister was quite proud of his efforts. And since Dahmer was gay, then of course the boys he picked up were ALSO gay... and you can take the logic from there.)

That is an outstanding example of how twisted the christian faith can get at times. Well, all faiths.

CHEESER- i knew it was you that i had this problem with! your theory has just as much proof as my theory has! and i will not respond to you again on this issue! i do not want to go back and forth with you on this stupidly obvious issue again! but i will address individual issues,one at a time, not gross generilizations! flat earth theory? read your bible for yourself.
Some Bible critics have claimed that Revelation 7:1 assumes a flat earth since the verse refers to angels standing at the "four corners" of the earth. Actually, the reference is to the cardinal directions: north, south, east, and west. Similar terminology is often used today when we speak of the sun's rising and setting, even though the earth, not the sun, is doing the moving.
In the Old Testament, Job 26:7 explains that the earth is suspended in space, the obvious comparison being with the spherical sun and moon.
A literal translation of Job 26:10 is "He described a circle upon the face of the waters, until the day and night come to an end." A spherical earth is also described in Isaiah 40:21-22 - "the circle of the earth."
Proverbs 8:27 also suggests a round earth by use of the word circle . If you are overlooking the ocean, the horizon appears as a circle. This circle on the horizon is described in Job 26:10. The circle on the face of the waters is one of the proofs that the Greeks used for a spherical earth. Yet here it is recorded in Job, ages before the Greeks discovered it.
The Hebrew record is the oldest, because Job is one of the oldest books in the Bible. Historians generally [wrongly] credit the Greeks with being the first to suggest a spherical earth.other places to research are the writings of solomon and the entire new testament!
The Greeks also drew meridians and parallels. They identified such areas as the poles, equator, and tropics. This spherical earth concept did not prevail; the Romans drew the earth as a flat disk with oceans around it. so blame that on the romans!
The round shape of our planet was a conclusion easily drawn by watching ships disappear over the horizon and also by observing eclipse shadows, and we can assume that such information was well known to New Testament writers,
When the Bible touches on scientific subjects, it is entirely accurate!!!


BYRD- this does not change my opinion that what he did on this earth was not beautiful! and if he got saved that is between him and god! i do hope that he did truly repent and yeah i do believe god can forgive people like that! so if he is in heaven then great! god came to call the sinners and the sick and lost ( me) to repentance not the self righteous! who needs a doctor when they (think) they are well???? also on the issue of animals, the reports were from wildlife refugees where large numbers of animals migrated to higher ground, to get out of the way much before the oncoming wave.

SEAPEOPLE- in answer to your question of the timeline of jesus resurection i looked into it and found that each author writes what he personally saw, and that writen in a timeline they all corelate,if you need to see it laid out, i gotta let you google it because i would take up so much space i think it would be unfair, if you have specific problems i can respond to that but i see no contradiction when placed in context.

Originally posted by ninki
CHEESER- i knew it was you that i had this problem with! your theory has just as much proof as my theory has!

excuse me? did i say that my theoy has as much proof as your theory? or did i say my theory has more scientific proof?

please read posts clearfully
you have fasly accused me yet again.


and for this..........!!!!!!!!!!!!
i nearly feel off my seat when i read this.

ninki
The round shape of our planet was a conclusion easily drawn by watching ships disappear over the horizon and also by observing eclipse shadows, and we can assume that such information was well known to New Testament writers,
When the Bible touches on scientific subjects, it is entirely accurate!!!

nabataea.net...

The only identifiable 'flat-earthers' are Lactantius (265-345 AD), Cosmas Indicopleustes (540 AD), Severian of Gabala (380 AD), and possibly Theodore of Mopsuestia (350 - 430 AD), and possibly Diodore of Tarsus (394 AD). Of these Lactantius and Cosmas are the prime proponents of the flat earth theory. Russell, in his book, discusses both of these characters in a sympathetic way, pointing out that neither of them was influential in their own time, nor in the medieval period.

the general population (including the authors of the bible) believed the earth was flat... (unless god told them otherwise).

and we can assume that such information was well known to New Testament writers

i wouldnt be assuming anything before you acturally research on both halfs

Originally posted by ninki
CHEESER- i knew it was you that i had this problem with! your theory has just as much proof as my theory has!

excuse me? did i say that my theoy has more proof than your theory does? or did i say my theory has more scientific proof than what yours does?

please read posts clearfully
you have fasly accused me yet again.


and for this..........!!!!!!!!!!!!
i nearly fell off my seat when i read this.

ninki
The round shape of our planet was a conclusion easily drawn by watching ships disappear over the horizon and also by observing eclipse shadows, and we can assume that such information was well known to New Testament writers,
When the Bible touches on scientific subjects, it is entirely accurate!!!

nabataea.net...

The only identifiable 'flat-earthers' are Lactantius (265-345 AD), Cosmas Indicopleustes (540 AD), Severian of Gabala (380 AD), and possibly Theodore of Mopsuestia (350 - 430 AD), and possibly Diodore of Tarsus (394 AD). Of these Lactantius and Cosmas are the prime proponents of the flat earth theory. Russell, in his book, discusses both of these characters in a sympathetic way, pointing out that neither of them was influential in their own time, nor in the medieval period.

the general population (including the authors of the bible) believed the earth was flat... (unless god told them otherwise).
i was making a generalisation.
i dont care if it was the romans fault or the fault of intergalatic traverlers.
an apology would be nice ninki, you've said many things that arent true.

and we can assume that such information was well known to New Testament writers

i wouldnt be assuming anything before you acturally research on both halfs


[edit on 12/17/2004 by cheeser]

CHEESER- maybee you should fall off your seat, it might knock some sence into you! what part of my post dont you understand? the part about how the bible said it first? well the bible did say it first. or is it the fact that we can easly deduce that because the way things work the earth would appear to be round, is that tripping you up? well how in the heck do you think that someone started to question the flat earth theory? they began to take note of the world around them ( no pun intended), and yes i believe god gives knowledge,he gave it then and he gives it now, so if that is what you want to call, (people in the bible plainly stating that the earth is round,) well then so be it! devine inspiration! maybee you should do your homework on subjects such as this,and i noticed your post about how you have more scientific proof to back up your theory, maybee you did not understand that i said, i will not go there with you:bnghd: