Caitlyn... Check Yourself!

originally posted by: Hefficide

originally posted by: honested3
a reply to: Cuervo

I absolutely agree and wonder the same thing, but stay strong girl in the future all these cis-ignorants will be seen as being on the wrong side. Science, history, and I'd go so far as to say God are on our side. : )

Clue me in, how does hetero bashing and using terms like "cis-ignorants" help spread understanding and acceptance again?

Well I didn't say anything at all about heteros so you got me there. You originally started the thread saying your brother causes you to have prejudice so I don't really think your in any place to talk about spreading understanding and acceptance. Now you might see it as trying to spread understanding and acceptance and sorry I feel inclined to be more aggressive with it because I am on the defensive position, not on an already established foundation that is accepted and understood like you cisgender people are.

I am not so much frustrated by you because at least you are honest enough to say you have a degree of tainted opinion, but its the group of people you brought in that seem to be expert's on trans people's lives even though they are ignorant about it. Why are they ignorant? Because their posts reflect that.

The road to understanding involves correction, friend. And I have my red pen ready to write all kinds of corrections on the papers you hand in called 'cisgender opinions on transgender people.'

a reply to: honested3

And my red pen is here to mention that "cisgender" seems very much like the sort of slighting terminology that is deliberately invoked to illicit a specific reaction and show contempt rather than respect. I imagine it would be rather hard to fight intolerance from a position of, well, intolerance.

ETA: And to be clear, I did not, in fact, say that my relative caused me to "have prejudice". What I did say was "he certainly has caused a predisposition towards some level of bias within me".

To be more specific, I was conscious of the fact that I might be projecting a bit of my relative onto Kaitlyn.

originally posted by: Hefficide
Her position as a trans woman gave her a platform from which to publicly state political opinions, thus opening her to rebuttal.

She publicly stated her political positions before she came out. The whole family considers themselves conservative. They've had the platform for years. It has nothing to do with her being transgender. I wouldn't doubt that the producers "encouraged" her to say what she did, to add drama, and so we can see the change in her attitude over time. This is television, and it's not "reality", even though that's what they call it. Some of it is definitely scripted. Caitlyn has a LOT to learn. And she's using her platform to expose the issue of gender to the wider public.

originally posted by: Hefficide
If people want to get hung up on my honest disclaimer about knowing a transsexual person who really pisses me off and who has caused a great deal of real world trouble for my family? I can't help that. In the end I feel that being open about my possible biases was honest and allows for others to simply say "Sorry you had that experience. Have faith that the person you are discussing is the exception and not the rule!" But either way, it's not the subject nor the point.

The point is that Caitlyn Jenner has either positioned herself, or allowed herself to be positioned by others, as an ambassador ( for lack of a better term ) of tolerance. She is currently enjoying a level of acceptance and protection from attack that, quite honestly, most other trans or gay people cannot even begin to fathom - as they face bigotry and hate incessantly and without the insulation of wealth and fame.

I am sorry about your family situation. And I'm not pissed at all. I honestly have no idea what's going on with your family member and that topic seems (to me) to be disjointed from Caitlyn's political views. You said your family member was a sociopathic ass from day one. I don't personally get the connection to Caitlyn, as she's neither unsure about her identity nor is she a sociopathic ass (IMO).

I honestly can't bring the two topics of your OP together in my mind. They have VERY little to do with each other. I think I was (and am) a little confused about that. Perhaps others are, too.

It's rank elitism as I see it.

This is true. She has been famous all her life and had every benefit, opportunity and blessing life has to offer. She doesn't know what it's like to live in the world of a "normal" transgender person. But I commend her for reaching out and doing her best to learn.

But in the meantime, I'm not mad at her. She's ignorant to the world of the common person. She's not being mean, she's just uneducated and uninformed. By the time this is over, I bet we see an entirely different attitude from her.

The issue of people using the wrong pronouns has been raised, so I want to make it very clear that I meant no offense to anyone in my post.

I correctly referred to Caitlyn as 'she' but it was confusing to know what to call Hefficide's relative so I went with him/her and s/he.


From the OP:

He's 'demanding to be referred to as he' BUT 'the current claim is that he is both a homosexual male and a female lesbian'.


Hefficide is a moderator so if he would like to amend my post and assign the correct pronoun to his relative, here is my permission to do so.

originally posted by: honested3
I know right? It seems we have a well staffed crew to mop up the overflow of cis-ignorance?

It's not cis-ignorance. There are millions of cisgender people who FULLY support and make a point to gain as much knowledge as we can about the issue if gender identity and all LGBT issues. We are allies. And we are cisgender. And it ruffles my feathers a little to hear you attach ignorance to cisgender people like me. (I'm not mad, just being picky.)

People who knowingly and stubbornly use the wrong pronoun, bring up marrying a giraffe or say they identify as a helicopter are acting out of willful ignorance. They have been educated on the topic, but willfully refuse to show respect and compassion, instead, prefer to remain solid in their biases. As far as I'm concerned, they're perfectly entitled to be that way, but they're probably going to be called out.

Willful ignorance is the state and practice of ignoring any sensory input that appears to contradict one’s inner model of reality. At heart, it is almost certainly driven by confirmation bias.

It differs from the standard definition of “ignorance“ — which just means that one is unaware of something — in that willfully ignorant people are fully aware of facts, resources and sources, but refuse to acknowledge them.

Willful Ignorance

I don't seem to have a problem accepting that gender identity, and political affiliation are two different aspects of a person. I don't see the conflict.

a reply to: Hefficide

Honestly, I won't listen or watch anything 'it' has to say,and I won't feed into the media hype about 'it'. Call me a bigot or whatever,but for the life of me,once you have your sex organs cut off,you cease to be a he or she in my book. And I will never look at them as 'heros'. Give me a break. If anything they are selfish and childish. Ug, I want nothing to do with Jenner.

a reply to: Dimithae

We don't have an obligation to listen to anyone.

Why should there be an obligation now?

We live in an age where everyone, and I mean everyone, has a voice.

Doesn't mean we have to listen.

a reply to: beezzer

No Beezz, we don't have to listen, but don't we want to be a part of the world we live in? The world and our society are changing. What good does it do anyone to hide under a rock? We must go with the flow at times, and accept the things we cannot change. We're evolving, good, bad, or indifferent, it's happening.

I don't like it when people wait till they're 65 to transition, of course she's putting a target on her back, shes a trash celebrity star.

originally posted by: ladyinwaiting
a reply to: beezzer

No Beezz, we don't have to listen, but don't we want to be a part of the world we live in? The world and our society are changing. What good does it do anyone to hide under a rock? We must go with the flow at times, and accept the things we cannot change. We're evolving, good, bad, or indifferent, it's happening.

Who said hide under a rock?

Don't like what someone says?
Don't listen.

Do you read, watch Breitbart, FOX news, Drudgereport, Diogenes Middle Finger, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Sarah Palin?

Are you condemned for not watching/listening to them?

a reply to: beezzer

I think the country is going through "growing pains" right now. Like the "Roaring Twenties" -- a fascinating decade, full of social changes, and the "Peace and Love Seventies", another decade of social change.

Rebellion characterized those decades, and perhaps we are seeing some of that now.

originally posted by: ladyinwaiting
a reply to: beezzer

I think the country is going through "growing pains" right now. Like the "Roaring Twenties" -- a fascinating decade, full of social changes, and the "Peace and Love Seventies", another decade of social change.

Rebellion characterized those decades, and perhaps we are seeing some of that now.

lolz

I see it more as Russia in 1917.

But to each his own.

Jenner is going to talk. Listen, don't listen. Support, don't support.

But people should never feel that they are obligated to support her just because of her gender identity.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

What..the...hell..is..."cisgendered"?

My heart goes out to transgender people because being trapped in the wrong body must be hell. A good friend of mine tried to have a sex change back in the 1970's and if I hadn't gone with him to the Chelsea Hospital to see his consultant back then, I would never have believed the medical establishment's attitude towards his problem. Any idiot could see he was more feminine than male and no one in the office had a problem with him - just the establishment in general .

Our preconceived ideas come basically from religious teaching which only wants men to marry women so they have children and perpetuate the race for rulers and the religious to exploit. I suspect without the poison spread by religious dogma these people would be accepted and able to change into who they really are.

We should all know how this is being dealt with is cruel, simply by the suicide rate. Its a problem that people from both rich and poor backgrounds have to face and it could be made easier for them.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Cisgender is a person like me, who was born with body parts that align with the person's gender identity. I was born with girl parts and I've always felt like a girl/woman. It's the opposite of transgender.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Cisgender is a person like me, who was born with body parts that align with the person's gender identity. I was born with girl parts and I've always felt like a girl/woman. It's the opposite of transgender.

So basically anyone who doesn't have gender dysphoria... I wonder what we should call people who don't have schizophrenia.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
So basically anyone who doesn't have gender dysphoria...

Yes. Cis means "on the same side as". Cis and Trans are used in chemistry.

www.glaad.org...

I wonder what we should call people who don't have schizophrenia.

Mentally stable? Schizophrenia is a mental disorder. Transgender is not.

a reply to: beezzer

But people should never feel that they are obligated to support her just because of her gender identity.

Well sure.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Cisgender is a person like me, who was born with body parts that align with the person's gender identity. I was born with girl parts and I've always felt like a girl/woman. It's the opposite of transgender.

So basically anyone who doesn't have gender dysphoria... I wonder what we should call people who don't have schizophrenia.

Is it still PC to just call non-schizo folks "normal?" If so, I'll assume that will be changed soon.