So atheists, what if you are wrong

originally posted by: mymymy
because he cures so many ailments in the world that we can't see. Tumors disappearing, cancer into remission etc., people go on everyday about how God works miracles, why doesn't he do one we can actually see?

He does...

I have personally experienced several.

Once you experience one, you are NEVER the same person.

You just need to be in the right place at the right time.

One example: Birmingham, Alabama March 22, 1959.

R.W. Shambach witnessed the greatest miracle he ever saw in his life when a young child with 26 diseases was instantly healed at the Birmingham fairgrounds.

He saw the eyeballs form and the club feet straighten out before his very eyes.

"When I was on the Phil Donahue show, he asked me, “What is the greatest miracle you have ever seen?” Of course, I ... I'll never forget; the greatest miracle I ever witnessed. A woman brought her child, who had 26 major diseases, to our meeting."

"That little boy's tongue had been hanging out of his mouth all week. The first thing I saw as Brother Allen prayed was that tongue snapped back in the mouth like a rubber band. For the first time in four years, the little guy's tongue was in his mouth. I saw two little whirlpools in his eyes, just a milky color. You couldn't tell whether he had blue or brown or what color of eyes. But during the prayer, that whirlpool ceased, and I saw two brand new brown eyes! I knew God had opened his eyes, and if God opened the eyes, I knew He had unstopped the deaf ears."

"Then those little arms began to snap like pieces of wood; and for the first time, they stretched out. The legs cracked like wood popping. All of sudden, I saw God form toes out of those club feet as easily as child forms something with silly-putty. The crowd was watching by this time going wild! I've never seen any people shout and rejoice so much in all my life."

"I saw that baby placed on his feet, and he began to run for the first time in his life. He had never seen his mama before, never said a word, but he began running across the platform and I was running right after him to catch him. He leaped into his mama's arms, and I heard him say his first word, 'Mama.'"

www.miraclevalleyarchives.org...

a reply to: Murgatroid

So who exactly was this diseased boy? Does anyone know his name? Is there confirmation that he had twenty-six diseases, his doctor's testimony, for example? After this event, was it confirmed that his twenty-six diseases were suddenly cured?

Or is this just one in a million stories that may or not be true and with no way to confirm or deny?

Just curious, how far do you go to try to determine if what you're reading is true?

a reply to: Murgatroid

A faith healer? Something that cannot be confirmed?

Also, why do these "Faith healers" seek medical attention from real Doctors instead of themselves?

Fake faith healers

originally posted by: mymymy
a reply to: Murgatroid

A faith healer? Something that cannot be confirmed?

Also, why do these "Faith healers" seek medical attention from real Doctors instead of themselves?

Fake faith healers

By definition, a faith healer facilitates miraculous healing. You cannot demand accounts of miraculous cures and then dismiss them because of the agency of those cures.

Faith healers seek medical attention because doctors facilitate healing too.

Doctors have also sought healing from faith healers. How weird is that?

a reply to: chr0naut

Do you know of any documented cases where people were cured of this or that ailment, solely thanks to miraculous healing?

a reply to: chr0naut

But show me one faith healer that has been proven to be legitimate. And not some article about something that happened 300 years ago. I mean something that happened here in modern times that can be verified. Like a name, Confirmation of affliction, doctors' testimony, etc.

Faith healers are scam artists, nothing more. James Randi has been proving that for years

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
a reply to: chr0naut

Do you know of any documented cases where people were cured of this or that ailment, solely thanks to miraculous healing?

My daughters boyfriend had a car crash in which the paramedic at the scene said that he had broken his spine.

In the hospital, while my wife & I were in attendance, the doctor tested for feeling by poking the point of a syringe into the boy, starting with his feet and moving up his body.

He had no feeling below mid-ribcage, was in no pain and was unable to move his legs, feet and toes.

We asked if we could pray for him, because we knew his mother and sister were not believers and we didn't want to offend. His mother agreed and asked if it was OK that they pray too. The doctor was present and I believe he may have joined in the prayer. So we all prayed that God would heal him. Nothing specific, just that simple prayer.

Within seconds he began to move his toes and to complain of pain in his back. The doctor immediately took over and re-tested, finding feeling everywhere that was insensate previously.

The only comment from the doctor, to us was "Wow".

The boy had been admitted about 2:30 AM and walked out of the hospital about 6:00 AM.

My wife and I aren't faith healers by any means, but we have seen some miraculous healings, of which this was probably the most spectacular.

If you don't attend a church, then it is likely that you don't hear about the majority of healings happening around you.

From my observation, healings simply occur around Christians and are accepted as a normal occurrence. As such,there is never a desire to validate the healing scientifically, simply a thankfulness that it has happened.

a reply to: chr0naut

Interesting story, and thankfully that boy came out alright.

I have heard similar (similar in the sense there was a healing of one kind or another) stories from people I know. As you may have guessed, I am still skeptical coincidence, or something else was involved. I don't have enough information on all the little variables here and there to come up with any explanations. I'm not willing to just throw in the towel and say "God did it", because of.. well to be short, because of all the reasons I don't believe in the first place. I do have an open mind for the unexplained I'm just weary when credit is given to a God.

Anyway, thanks for sharing that story since it was your own.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
a reply to: chr0naut

Interesting story, and thankfully that boy came out alright.

I have heard similar (similar in the sense there was a healing of one kind or another) stories from people I know. As you may have guessed, I am still skeptical coincidence, or something else was involved. I don't have enough information on all the little variables here and there to come up with any explanations. I'm not willing to just throw in the towel and say "God did it", because of.. well to be short, because of all the reasons I don't believe in the first place. I do have an open mind for the unexplained I'm just weary when credit is given to a God.

Anyway, thanks for sharing that story since it was your own.

No worries!

Sometimes God doesn't heal and I have no idea why.

Perhaps suffering is part of the path? Jesus himself suffered but because of that suffering we are forgiven. Suffering became sacrament, in a metaphysical sense.

I do know that some of the hardest times for myself have been the times when my character has grown the most. I would think that God wants & expects us to become better than we are, especially if he put us here for a reason in the first place.

But I also think that an expression of God being 'in' a church, would be miraculous happenings. It's simply the kind of thing you'd expect God to do.

It would be far far better to not believe in a God that is not real truth then to believe in a God that is NOT real.The fact is the God that anyone that believes in a God(no matter what it is or what religion) is not God.If there is a true creator God many(most) “true” atheist (which there are very few of) have been given the gift of “not” being able to believe in a God.

That is not saying those that believe in a God are lesser.The reason they believe in a God has multiple reasons.The main reason is ALL of mankind’s nature is religious.The amalgamation of all of a persons experience forms their belief in faith of their Belief System religion(even atheist).

Those that have a foundational “religious belief in a “herd” religion(Christianity,Islam etc etc..) have a belief in a God or Gods.Those Gods are made in the image of the person who believes.In one sense they cannot help “but” believe in their religion because it is their nature AND character to do so.

They could no more “change” their Belief System religion than change their genetic makeup.It “is” who and what they are…their “name”.However their “character” does change as they have more experiences. Unfortunately it is seldom for the better(knowing truth) it is usually (always) more and more delusion of reality(truth) and believing the opposite!!

That is why some true atheist have been blessed.Their “God is a human God(themselves) full of the foibles of humanity their delusion can never rise above.

On the other hand the religion-religious(RR) are filled with delusions of grandeur of being “special” and chosen of their God.All they have to do is “practice” their religion which they can make into anything they want and it will automatically be sanctioned by “their God(themselves).

This has many downsides and a few good upsides.The downsides are all to well known on whom they inflict(and the religious are completely unaware of because they believe it is ALL good).The upside is in some cases it makes the RR “act” much more benevolently than they really are!..which also unfortunately..... contributes to their delusion.

But let’s not look a gift horse in the mouth.I’d far more like them to “act” than to be who they really are all the time.This world can be unbearable as is, it would truly be hell on earth if the RR didn’t have their religion to constrain them from being who they really are.

Of course this cacophony cannot continue for much longer.It seems mankind is coming closer to a new breaking point where the RR want to rule the world by their religion and nothing will get in their way because they have their “God” on their side and their numbers are overwhelming.If nothing else the unity of insanity(God's) can inflict much damage…The true creator God help us all.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
a reply to: Murgatroid

So who exactly was this diseased boy? Does anyone know his name? Is there confirmation that he had twenty-six diseases, his doctor's testimony, for example? After this event, was it confirmed that his twenty-six diseases were suddenly cured?

Or is this just one in a million stories that may or not be true and with no way to confirm or deny?

Just curious, how far do you go to try to determine if what you're reading is true?

See what I told you? Evidence presented, promptly dismissed. You are willing to dismiss even a first-hand account of a miracle. Why do you even bother to pretend you care about evidence, or that you have an open-mind for it?

Based on my own personal philosophy + experiences/gnosis, I do not side with Atheist or the religious dogmatic fundamentalist. I see both as possessing the same degree of ignorance. Both have much more in common than each side realizes. There are many Gnostics (of all faiths) out there as well (and from the past) that do/did so as well due to their own gnosis - knowledge of transcendence arrived at by way of interior intuitive means. Meister Eckhart (Gnostic) and Rumi (Sufi) come to mind.

This is the claim made by a ton of atheists individuals worldwide:
God doesnt exist and you are stupid for believing this stupid nonsense

...yeah, those people are sailing the same waters as the religious dogmatic fundamentalist despite placing themselves in two different boats.

God is dead ~Friedrich Nietzsche

Friedrich Nietzsche is notable for having declared that God is dead and for having written several of his works in the presumption that man must find a new mode of being given the death of God.

Key word: Being.

God is indeed dead (in personal philosophy) when one does not believe in the existence of God (Atheism,) OR chooses to believe in a God outside of themselves (Religious). God is dead; crucified daily through ignorance; when one does not "Know Thyself" intimately enough to become a conscious creator in life - "they miss the mark". They continue to remain that wayward wave Nietzsche speaks about...and therefore have no freewill- but only freedom.

"I searched for God and found only myself. I searched for myself and found only God" - Rumi

"A human being has so many skins inside, covering the depths of the heart. We know so many things, but we don't know ourselves! Why, thirty or forty skins or hides, as thick and hard as an ox's or bear's, cover the soul. Go into your own ground and learn to know yourself there." ~ Meister Eckhart

"For nothing is impossible with God."- Luke 1:37

...the problem is most do not know who God is. That includes both the atheist and the religious of all faiths.

Those who are ignorant to who God truly is (do not Know Thyself) usually will resort to vain repetitions, which are foreign to true prayer. True prayer is an exercise of the divine imagination that requires tranquility and peace of mind.

"Imagination is everything, it's a preview of life's coming attractions."- Albert Einstein

"This is the ineffable secret, the ultimate illumination, the key to peace and power. YOU ARE GOD. If you will accept this towering truth. dare to stand atop this magnificent pinnacle, universal consciousness will be revealed to you from within. God is there. It is he who peers from behind your eyes, who is your own consciousness, who is your very SELF. You are NOT just part of God; you are ALTOGETHER God, and God is ALTOGETHER YOU." - Uell S. Anderson from the book "Three Magic Words"

"Three Magic Words" By Uell S. Anderson (a fellow Gnostic brother) was published in 1954. It is a book BOTH atheist and Religious should read. Consider it a knocking of two ignorant heads together in order for both sides to finally see the light.

Until then, they both can argue on the train as they daily commute their existence away. The rest of us who understand our true nature will work the night-shift (exercise our freewill)....we will go to bed wanting more and arise feeling grateful. It's not complicated people; sth is simple.

Miester Exkhart: en.wikipedia.org...

Rumi: en.wikipedia.org...

Here, let these guys explain "prayer/exercising freewill".



;-)

a reply to: Leahn

See what I told you? Evidence presented, promptly dismissed.

It's not really evidence (it's a fabrication), and it's dismissed because it is ridiculous.

originally posted by: Leahn
Why do you even bother to pretend you care about evidence, or that you have an open-mind for it?

I'm not pretending. Are you?

The eye witness testimony can't be backed up by anything and every person on this planet is capable of lying, and/or deluding themselves.

I try to exercise this thing called healthy skepticism.

Why do you think his story should be believed just because? Do you even bother to have a standard of evidence or do you just believe any willy nilly thing that fits your world view because someone said so?

If you really expect me to take something seriously, present something serious. You know, actually verifiable. Until that time, expect me to continue to be skeptical of the tales and dismissing them as proof of anything other than an interesting story (if that).

You can also note that I have mentioned before that I know a couple people who believe they experienced a healing, or witnessed one. Another member here on ATS has told me a personal story. I have readily admitted before that on occasion something miraculous may very well have happened. But I still have to wonder why there aren't any bonafide documented cases, that I know of. Feel free to bring some to my attention.

For the sake of argument let me ask you this. What would your critique be like if I produced for you, evidence of prayers being answered? The calls for healing being answered from the Almighty! Except.. all my evidence comes from the Muslim faith, and the Almighty is Allah.

The point being that adherents of the majority of religions can make a case their god is real because their god answers prayers.

And who is answering their prayers, if not Allah?

Is your mind open to the possibility you're worshiping the wrong god?

I mean it really seems with the standard of evidence you hold you could provide "evidence" for a lot of things. So you never can be to sure.

But I digress.

...

By the way, look at the thousands, if not millions of people who rally behind faith healers. These megachurch guys like.. ugh.. Benny Hinn. An exposed fraud, still conning all those people. And all of those people adamantly believe, honestly, faithfully. But Hinn is a complete sham. $$$$$$$

There's also this guy. And many more (To the detriment of good people).

It's easy to BS people. That's why I like good evidence.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Leahn

See what I told you? Evidence presented, promptly dismissed.

It's not really evidence (it's a fabrication), and it's dismissed because it is ridiculous.

Funny because it is exactly what atheists asked for. Promptly dismissed, as I said you would.

What evidence do you have that it is a fabrication?

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
I'm not pretending. Are you?

The eye witness testimony can't be backed up by anything and every person on this planet is capable of lying, and/or deluding themselves.

Yes, you are. If eye witness testimony cannot be backed up by anything, why is it even accepted in court cases? Do you have any evidence that he is lying? Or even any reason to suspect that he is? Have you cross examined him and the other people involved? Have you talked to the doctor that attended the prayer? No? What he said would be accepted in a court by a judge, after he was cross examined, but you won't? You will promptly dismiss it as a lie, and you claim you care about evidence?

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
I try to exercise this thing called healthy skepticism.

Why do you think his story should be believed just because? Do you even bother to have a standard of evidence or do you just believe any willy nilly thing that fits your world view because someone said so?

What you have is not a 'healthy skepticism'. What you have is textbook hyperskepticism:

• Hyperskepticism is a tactic of intellectually dishonest argument where unreasonably high standards of evidence are required for a claim to be accepted. (Check)
  
• It is often combined with moving the goalpost on the standard of evidence, where as each previous standard is met, the hyperskeptic insists that's not good enough because it didn't meet a higher standard still. (Check)
  
• It is sometimes used as a derailing tactic, where the conversation shifts from the topic at hand to what constitutes acceptable evidence for the topic at hand. (Check)
  

you really expect me to take something seriously, present something serious. You know, actually verifiable. Until that time, expect me to continue to be skeptical of the tales and dismissing them as proof of anything other than an interesting story (if that).

You can also note that I have mentioned before that I know a couple people who believe they experienced a healing, or witnessed one. Another member here on ATS has told me a personal story. I have readily admitted before that on occasion something miraculous may very well have happened. But I still have to wonder why there aren't any bonafide documented cases, that I know of. Feel free to bring some to my attention.

This was already posted once. You ignored it. It is a documented case.

Miracle of Calanda

For the sake of argument let me ask you this. What would your critique be like if I produced for you, evidence of prayers being answered? The calls for healing being answered from the Almighty! Except.. all my evidence comes from the Muslim faith, and the Almighty is Allah.

Not a really good counter as they claim to follow the same God, but I see your point. I would simply remind you that there are cases in the Bible of people of other faiths having their prayers answered.

Is your mind open to the possibility you're worshiping the wrong god?

Sure. My mind is always open. I am not a hyper skeptic.

By the way, look at the thousands, if not millions of people who rally behind faith healers. These megachurch guys like.. ugh.. Benny Hinn. An exposed fraud, still conning all those people. And all of those people adamantly believe, honestly, faithfully. But Hinn is a complete sham. $$$$$$$

There's also this guy. And many more (To the detriment of good people).

It's easy to BS people. That's why I like good evidence.

Your point is? That there are charlatans everywhere? How many 'natural doctors' who claim to heal everything from broken nail to cancer with herbs are there, many of them with thousands of followers? Should we distrust medicine? Charlatans that claim to make your car run on water? Should we distruss science?

a reply to: borntowatch

I'd be at a complete loss as to which religion would be the correct one. You didn't by any chance assume that if atheism/agnosticism was wrong that Christianity would be right did you?

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer

By the way, look at the thousands, if not millions of people who rally behind faith healers. These megachurch guys like.. ugh.. Benny Hinn. An exposed fraud, still conning all those people. And all of those people adamantly believe, honestly, faithfully. But Hinn is a complete sham. $$$$$$$

There's also . And many more (To the detriment of good people).

It's easy to BS people. That's why I like good evidence.

It is interesting, the Benny Hinns and Marjoes of this world.
Great video
I have read interesting conspiracies Mr Hinn is a set up by people who want to destroy and lead christians astray
False teacher if you like. biblelight.net...
That Marjoe is definitely a false teacher and atheist it seems
sadly people like that operate in all walks of life and the church has a gullible amount in it as well.

Being a christian does not immunise people from charlatans and liars and manipulators.

The bible constantly warns christians to study the word, study for truth.

Most christians these days look to ministers like they are tv newsmen and or politicians. Its the society where we read what we want to hear and accept what we want.

The tricky thing is that everyone has their own delusion, everybody believes what they want to believe without question

I see some atheists act the same way, no scepticism about evolution, none. Thats not healthy.


Is Christianity the right religion, I am sure but thats not what the threads about.

originally posted by: borntowatch
Being a christian does not immunise people from charlatans and liars and manipulators.

No, I'd even go as far as to say that being a Christian likely makes you more susceptible to them based off of the way Christianity is taught. You know the believe what I say as truth without verification thing? Most call it "faith". But don't worry, Christians aren't the only ones with that problem. I'd say that any religion taught that THEY are the only one based off of faith alone would have followers that are susceptible to these things.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: borntowatch
Being a christian does not immunise people from charlatans and liars and manipulators.

No, I'd even go as far as to say that being a Christian likely makes you more susceptible to them based off of the way Christianity is taught. You know the believe what I say as truth without verification thing? Most call it "faith". But don't worry, Christians aren't the only ones with that problem. I'd say that any religion taught that THEY are the only one based off of faith alone would have followers that are susceptible to these things.

I consider atheism as a religion because they have the NO factor, as well as the blind belief in evolution.

Atheist believer fundamentalists are very hard core and aggressive, as bad as the christian fundamentalist.

Its absurd to believe they are not being manipulated like the christian equal

I tend to think the atheist equivalent is more at risk, their arrogance makes them think they are smarter than everybody else.
Though I do fear for the overly righteous christians out there.

People are people, no matter the flavour

One thing I have noticed in many christian churches are christians who are at the church for the promises that god will give what you want here and now. Big cars, relationships, money, fame.
Christianity doesnt teach that this world will give christians anything, just heartbreak

I have not met many educated christians in the teachings of the bible, most dont understand it any more than atheists, there in lies the problem

originally posted by: borntowatch
I consider atheism as a religion because they have the NO factor, as well as the blind belief in evolution.

Yea, I know you do and nothing anyone can say is going to change your delusional opinion about how atheism works. So I'm not even going to try.

Atheist believer fundamentalists are very hard core and aggressive, as bad as the christian fundamentalist.

Its absurd to believe they are not being manipulated like the christian equal

While I hesitate to say that atheists can't be manipulated, I'm a little curious as to how this would work. Though again, I'm working with the real definition of atheism and not YOUR definition of atheism that is contingent on atheists believing in evolution, so I'm unlikely to get a satisfactory answer from you here.

I tend to think the atheist equivalent is more at risk, their arrogance makes them think they are smarter than everybody else.
Though I do fear for the overly righteous christians out there.

People are people, no matter the flavour

We can agree on this at least. People who are overly assured of their beliefs can come across as arrogant regardless of what those beliefs happen to be.

One thing I have noticed in many christian churches are christians who are at the church for the promises that god will give what you want here and now. Big cars, relationships, money, fame.
Christianity doesnt teach that this world will give christians anything, just heartbreak

I have not met many educated christians in the teachings of the bible, most dont understand it any more than atheists, there in lies the problem

I find it odd that someone should have to "teach" the bible to anyone. I'd think that if something was profound enough that it should be understood by every person on the planet, then the message should be simple enough for everyone to get without too many deviations in that message. ESPECIALLY if that message was backed up by a supposed all mighty being that apparently can manipulate anything in the universe.