So atheists, what if you are wrong

originally posted by: Cuervo
It was a joke.

But, now that you mention it, isn't Leviticus the book that most Christians bring up when condemning others? Are you saying it doesn't apply to anybody outside of that place and time?

There is a wrong concept among many Christians that the Mosaic Law does not apply to them. But it is not a straightfoward answer. The Law was a shadow of upcoming things. Shadows do not exist by themselves, but are rather casted by something else exposed to the light. The principles on the Mosaic Law can be derived from the principles of the Christian teachings, which means that by following the principles of Christianity, you are already following everything on the Mosaic Law, which makes the Mosaic Law itself obsolete.

However, sometimes it is easier to understand something by its shadows than by its solid shape. We should know. That's how we measured the circunference of the Earth and the distance from the Earth to the Moon the first times.

originally posted by: Leahn
a) Kinesins. b) The Christian worldview is the only one that can correctly account for mankind's behavior that many times is both detrimental to themselves and conter-intuitive.

How exactly are those answers applicable? Serious question, how are motor proteins evidence of god? Are you just borrowing from Georgia Purdom or can you explain WHY it is evidence for god?

Why is the Christian worldview the only one to correctly account for mankinds behavior? That's a pretty half assed answer in my opinion but I'm curious what the foundation of that response is.

Additionally that statement seems contradictory to earlier epithets you have espoused. Such as this example...

originally posted by: Leahn
Even if Christianisty is false, and the Christian God does not exist, it speaks nothing of the existence of God. In fact, even if every single religion that has existed, exists and will exist in the whole story of mankind is wrong, it means absolutely nothing wrt the existence of God Himself, as the existence of anything, natural or supernatural, is not contingent upon someone's belief on it.

So which is it, Christianity is the end all be all or god doesn't need manmade religion in order to be real?

Which one?

"Do not judge so that you will not be judged. "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. (Matthew 7:1-5)

How exactly is claiming that I am ignorant and biased regarding your actual beliefs and then claiming that you believe exactly the same thing I just said about you is a counter-argument?

I would disagree that you hit the nail on the head. Regardless, you made a personal judgment based on ignorance because you had nothing to base it on. Just because you were somewhat correct, you were still spinning it a bit to create a hostile platform with which to engage me from.

The scientific method is not the only way to gauge the veracity of a claim. In fact, it is a very limited way to do such. It only applies to repeatable experiments of natural sciences. It cannot, in example, prove a mathematical claim.

But we're not discussing a mathematical claim. Unless of course you have a mathematical proof describing a supernatural entities interactions with sentient beings on Earth?

Do you have any reason to believe that our argument rests within such scope?

Yes

If yes, why is that?

Because anything interacting within our physical reality should leave physical, testable evidence.

Isn't this a case where, having only a hammer, everything must be a nail to you?

Not at all. The scientific method isn't a hammer. It's the entire tool box. Nothing is confirmed with a singular methodology, there are always multiple tests performed to see if they all reach the same conclusion within at least an acceptable margin of error. If you feel I am incorrect, please, by all means, provide some examples of why. I'm always up for entertaining the fact that I could be wrong. One thing I had learned long ago is that being wrong is more often than not a positive experience because it allows me to explore different avenues that can or will lead me to the correct conclusion. I am prepared to be incorrect and embrace it. Can you say the same thing about your paradigms regarding faith?

I believe in God just not your man made version of her.
Just live your life and do what feels right and everyone will be fine beleiver or not. God doesn't have petty human emotions like jealously only love.
I think the ones who are in trouble are the ones who threaten others with hell (doesn't exsist) and look down on others who are not in the right cult.
Remind you of anyone?.

originally posted by: Cuervo

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Cuervo

Dude you either don't believe and therefore don't have the Holy Ghost to understand scripture or you don't know how to rightly divide the word of truth when you study as instructed in 2 Timothy 2:15.

But Leviticus is for the nation of Israel not the church of God.

Anyone blemished or not can come to God via Christ in this age.

It was a joke.

But, now that you mention it, isn't Leviticus the book that most Christians CHERRY PICK when condemning others? Are you saying it doesn't apply to anybody outside of that place and time?

Fixed for you

You all know this was a silly thread as a mirror to this thread

www.abovetopsecret.com...

In fact mine was lazy and ill constructed.

Now go read your replies in context to the original, juxtapose your statements

You cant see your hypocrisy, I can't believe it.

Just change the title of his thread to

What if you're wrong about what you believe

You all think/pretend to be different but you are all the same.

a reply to: borntowatch

I haven't seen any non-believers acting in any way hypocritical. The thread's concept is based off of Pascal's Wager, and that concept is extremely flawed, as represented by my original topic you copied.

You're acting as if you've just composed this big "GOTCHA!!!!" moment, when it's pretty obvious you don't even understand what you're copying either. I mean, just look at the last sentences in your OP...

So atheists, what if you are wrong

Turn the tables, play your game, ask yourself the same question instead of your constant judgement you accuse others of

Your ignorance is showing

Slink away, borntowatch... slink away.....

a reply to: okrian

So you would challenge God and his authority?

YOU JUDGE GOD? Now that is funny!!! Because that is what you explained in your post.

If I had three wished..... the first one would be......Let me see you run your mouth off at the creator and then I get to watch what happens next.

God has often revealed himself to everyone on this planet but you can not see it, can you? You have rationalized to yourself that since the planet is screwed up and in chaos God can not exist??

Atheist LOVE to remind Christians about love one another, don't judge, etc..... blah, blah, blah but you are even worse..... you have judged God. How? By saying he does not exist.

originally posted by: Ghost147
a reply to: borntowatch

I haven't seen any non-believers acting in any way hypocritical. The thread's concept is based off of Pascal's Wager, and that concept is extremely flawed, as represented by my original topic you copied.

You're acting as if you've just composed this big "GOTCHA!!!!" moment, when it's pretty obvious you don't even understand what you're copying either. I mean, just look at the last sentences in your OP...

So atheists, what if you are wrong

Turn the tables, play your game, ask yourself the same question instead of your constant judgement you accuse others of

Your ignorance is showing

Slink away, borntowatch... slink away.....

It wasnt a big Gotcha at all, it was lazy if but a little self indulging compared to yours...... very little

You called believers out about being wrong in choosing their deity

I just calling out the same tune, just saying what if the atheist was wrong.

Nothing different to you at all, just the context

Seem a little context shy in your approach.

Yours little thread (compared to this one) is no different.

Its all about perspective, its about faith, belief. You choose yours me mine.

We could all be wrong.

I am not preaching as hard and as arrogantly as you, there is a difference.

Slink away, why? Thats a strange thing to say.
Are you that powerful that I should.
You have the charge of the Valkyrie playing in the background.

This war is all in your head.

Slink away, think about your choice of words.
All you want to do is dominate me, again thats really sad you act that way.

originally posted by: Hushabye
The thing with atheists, is that if we're shown proof of something, we'll believe it.

Religion has been proving itself a detriment to society for thousands of years...yet the religious cling regardless.

So you do not believe in the meaning of faith? To believe in something that you can not see or touch?

I know for a fact that at one time I had a great, great, great Grandmother but I never saw her, touched her or spoke with her.

If you have to wait to see God before believing in him, it will be too late for your salvation.

If I am wrong about my belief in God and you are right then nothing will happen to me BUT if I am right then you are going to hell.

For someone who is willing to gamble their eternity away that fast is foolish to me.

Christians displaying a lack of faith. If you had faith in God, you would not care in the slightest the opinions of athiests

originally posted by: Leahn
If we are quoting from the Bible, then I have to remind you that:

The passage says that 'believe that you have received' is necessary to receive it. I should also remind you of James, where it says that those that doubt should not assume that he will receive anything from God, and that God refuses to answer prayers done with wrong motives. Furthermore, I should also remind you of 1 John where it says that God will only answer prayers that are according to His will.

I can only surmise that God has no intentions of ever restoring an amputee's lost limb. In all of human history, I don't doubt their were plenty of people who fit all the other requirements for having prayers answered. He's restored vision to the blind, walked on water, fed the multitudes, and of course, raised the dead. Restoring limbs? Nah..

The amputee argument is silly. It relies on an idea that God is not the Supreme Being of the Universe, but our butler, somehow under obligation to serve our every whim, if we ask nicely. Are you aware how silly such argument is when I remind you that you are talking about a Being described in the Bible as 'omnipotent', a word whose etymology brings forth the idea of 'unstoppable', a word whose etymology brings forth the idea that the combined might of the whole Universe put together at once against Him is not enough to stay His hand? And you treat Him like your butler? Really?

Great. The ultimate point of the amputee argument is this. There are no miracles from God. Show me a miracle that can't be explained rationally. Fantastic things like raising the dead (but not their lost limbs) or other miracles don't happen. Where are all the Christians doing like Christ? Performing miracles through him and in his name?

And as for the idea that such thing is impossible outside of a miracle... Man grows finger back. It can be done. No, I am not saying it was spontaneous. I am just saying that, if a prayer was answered regarding this, a lot of people would quickly point out that it can be done and it would prove nothing.

I have read that fingertips can and do grow back. Very interesting to be sure. Proof of a miracle? Not in my opinion. But the implications from a medical standpoint if/when further researched may lead to some phenomenal results.

a reply to: Leahn

Interestingly enough, while any human being (even atheists) can promptly recognize that a parent doing this to their children would be tyranny and abuse, they also claim that God NOT doing it is somehow also tyranny and abuse.

Don't see the switchover there from one to the other.

"God" NOT doing it is evidence that "God" is a) absent, or b) nonexistent, or c) really lame. And that since "God" is not doing ANY of the things attributed to it, it reasons that no matter what it is, it isn't a person who's watching you get it on or gives a crap if you go to church or not.

a reply to: Leahn

If I am wrong, then I led a pious, happy and satisfying life about which I will regret nothing.

Hey, did you know there's a convent in Quebec where the nuns rotate in shifts, each group gathers and chants the exact same Latin verses for 8 hours, then they go to rest when the next nuns come in and start a shift of their own. Three shifts. Just like a factory. Exact same product. Standing.

24/7 that's all they do. Ever. For their whole lives. Every day. Until they die.


Fun! Useful! Meaningful!

a reply to: borntowatch

So atheists, what if you are wrong

That's why I'm an agnostic rather than an atheist.
There may be a creative hand behind the Universe but if there is it isn't going to be what people of religion think and it likely knows not of our little existence on this rock....IMHO.

originally posted by: peter vlar
How exactly are those answers applicable? Serious question, how are motor proteins evidence of god? Are you just borrowing from Georgia Purdom or can you explain WHY it is evidence for god?

Why is the Christian worldview the only one to correctly account for mankinds behavior? That's a pretty half assed answer in my opinion but I'm curious what the foundation of that response is.

I find the existence of kinesins not only a very strong evidence that we were created (they are proteins that 'walk' on 'roads' within our cells), but also that God has a strong sense of humor.

I already answered your other question. The fallen state of mankind and the world, the idea of sin, and the ideal of the lost perfection that we still strive for, the idea that we were created in the image of God Himself, those are the only things able to explain mankinds tendency of acting against their own best self-interest, as well as things like altruism and self-sacrifice. If you disagree, you are free to present another one that accomplishes the explanation equally well.

Additionally that statement seems contradictory to earlier epithets you have espoused. Such as this example...

"Even if Christianisty is false, and the Christian God does not exist, it speaks nothing of the existence of God. In fact, even if every single religion that has existed, exists and will exist in the whole story of mankind is wrong, it means absolutely nothing wrt the existence of God Himself, as the existence of anything, natural or supernatural, is not contingent upon someone's belief on it."


So which is it, Christianity is the end all be all or god doesn't need manmade religion in order to be real?

I don't see any contradiction between both statements. Both are true. You may want to clarify where the dichotomy is.

"Do not judge so that you will not be judged. "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. (Matthew 7:1-5)

The passage does not say to not to judge. The passage says to not to judge lest you be judged by the same measure. I can withstand the scrutiny of my own measure. My conscience is clear.

I would disagree that you hit the nail on the head. Regardless, you made a personal judgment based on ignorance because you had nothing to base it on.

You are grasping at straws. Your own statement about yourself is in no way different from what I said about you myself. Whatever differences you may perceive to exist, they do not affect my point. You would not accept the evidence. Plus, I have my own personal experience to base it on. It is not based on ignorance. Rather, it is based on a decade of experience of discussing with people like you on the Internet and in real life. Furthermore, I am an INFJ. I can know details of someone's personality by merely glancing a picture of them. It is kinda our 'thing'. There is a lot of raw data about everyone on how they write their posts rather than the content of it.

Because anything interacting within our physical reality should leave physical, testable evidence.

Anything? A perfect combustion leaves no trace. The death of anything will leave no trace, if you wait long enough. Yet, you claim that God interacting with our world should leave physical, testable evidence. Furthermore, it must not only leave a trace, but it must be repeatable, in order to be peer-reviewed. Do you have any evidence that "anything" interacting within our physical reality should leave physical, testable evidence? I just gave you two exceptions. Furthermore, do you believe that such "evidence" would be of the repeatable kind that can be tested in laboratory in order to be peer-reviewed? What evidence do you have to support your claims?

Not at all. The scientific method isn't a hammer. It's the entire tool box.

The analogy remains. The scientific method can only be applied to repeatable experiments of the fields of natural sciences. It is not even to all of them. Just the small subset of repeatable ones. Yet, you gave no reason to believe that the existence of God falls within its scope.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

Atheist LOVE to remind Christians about love one another, don't judge, etc..... blah, blah, blah but you are even worse..... you have judged God. How? By saying he does not exist.

Why should Christians be comparing themselves to Atheists? Christians are the ones who have chosen to pick up their Cross, follow Christ, and live by the teachings of Christ. Atheists did not choose to make that commitment.

originally posted by: gortex
That's why I'm an agnostic rather than an atheist.

Unless you posses a belief in a god, then you're an atheist, an agnostic atheist but still an atheist.

a reply to: borntowatch

What if you're correct?

Do you think your god /s will be happy with your constant dishonesty on these boards? do you really think you'll pass any 'judgement' after the mendaciousness you've repeatedly displayed here?

If you really did believe in such things, you wouldn't act this way....

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Leahn

If I am wrong, then I led a pious, happy and satisfying life about which I will regret nothing.

Hey, did you know there's a convent in Quebec where the nuns rotate in shifts, each group gathers and chants the exact same Latin verses for 8 hours, then they go to rest when the next nuns come in and start a shift of their own. Three shifts. Just like a factory. Exact same product. Standing.

24/7 that's all they do. Ever. For their whole lives. Every day. Until they die.

Fun! Useful! Meaningful!

I think its pointless and not valid in a Christian sense but each to their own
Matthew 6:7 ESV /
“And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words.

Not for me to dictate or judge them, they must have their reasons.

They may well think some things you do are crazy

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: gortex
That's why I'm an agnostic rather than an atheist.

Unless you posses a belief in a god, then you're an atheist, an agnostic atheist but still an atheist.

a reply to: borntowatch

What if you're correct?

Do you think your god /s will be happy with your constant dishonesty on these boards? do you really think you'll pass any 'judgement' after the mendaciousness you've repeatedly displayed here?

If you really did believe in such things, you wouldn't act this way....

Well God is the judge, He will judge who is lying and He knows the truth.

For mine I think that people are fooled into belief by their self centred desires.

I try not to lie, you may think I do but I face Him, your opinion though valid to you, not very important in my life.
Once I hit reply you and your opinion wont exist in my life.

No biggy to me.


I love this quote

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion however satisfying and reassuring.

-Carl Sagan From a deluded man about his own delusions

originally posted by: arpgme
a reply to: DeathSlayer



Why should Christians be comparing themselves to Atheists? Christians are the ones who have chosen to pick up their Cross, follow Christ, and live by the teachings of Christ. Atheists did not choose to make that commitment.

Never a truer word spoken, why should atheists be like christians or even want to accept anything biblical.

I agree, you have your own choice and are free to choose it.

I dont understand why christians impose their will or judge others.
We have a common law to do that.