"Cecil" the Lion Hunted and Killed

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: Grimpachi

originally posted by: IanFleming

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: crazyewok

This isnt about a legal hunt for conservation.

This is a about a gun (Well crossbow happy) happy dip# who lured a protected Lion out of a reservation and shot it illegally.

I hunt local deer and rabbits, but I do it LEGALLY.

Twats like him give the rest of us a bad name.

Actually from everything that has been written about this in articles. The guy hired a safari group to do a legal hunt. He paid full price for a legal hunt.

The group that was hired lured the lion and there was a local villager who was complacent. Both the villager and the safari group is facing punishment maybe even some prison for those directly involved.


I see a lot of speculation/opinions that he knew the group he hired was breaking the law, but no evidence to that effect. In fact him purposely breaking the law doesn't make any sense at all.

The outrage here seems a bit misplaced or completely misplaced. It should be focused on the "so called professional guides" and the safari group. Most of the outrage I am reading is against any hunters.

But, who cares about facts? It doesn't look like many to me.

So, what you are saying is that he hired a legal hunt but then may have been defrauded by one of (or more) of the guides-- sort of like some one buying something in a shop and not realizing it was stolen goods because it was in a legitimate shop and it was the shop keeper that did the stealing, not the customer?

I can see that as possible, certainly.

Human nature is that people want to get what they pay for.

I looked up the licensing fees there and it is 24K to hunt a lion he paid between 50 and 54k so at least 25k went to the safari group. It was their job to find him a legal kill.

It is also human nature for people to take the easy way out and make quick cash.

Who had the most to gain by doing this? It wasn't the hunter.

Doesnt matter how much ge paid or what he had to gain.

If he knew what he was doing he is guilty along with the guides.


Dont know why people are jumping to his defence...,

Because they are exposing themselves as nothing more than contrarians. Tell them the sky is blue and they will give you a YouTube video explaining why it is red. Tell them this guy is a scumbag and they will jump to his defense. Because they're smarter than you. Welcome to ATS in 2015. . .

Like many here, I have a laundry list of issues. I have friends that hunt, I get it, it's not for me and thankfully I don't need to kill my own food, I'd go hungry. I own firearms, I have a CCW, I however do not eat mammals. All that being said, WTF is a sport about this? WTF is he going to do with the meat/carcass? The story I read was this was a local celebrity (the cat) and even was collared. This sick # just wanted to take an expensive airplane ride somewhere and get the feel of killing something that was far more able to kill him (if weapons and a safe sitting spot were taken away.) I don't know if I would allow my loved ones to sit in this guys dentist chair, I really think he has some metal issues. This kind of "sport" should be outlawed, but as Africa can use any ill begotten penny that it can get its hands on, we.re hopeless. Almost like child sex slaves in Thailand.
Whatever, I honestly think mankind's time is counting down on this earth, better luck to the next in line for the throne. I hope they do better.

a reply to: jaffo

If he thought it was all on the up and up and officials are involved and sold him a tag and whatnot... This is gonna get very nuanced and messy.. Let's just hope he's not to rich as to skew a fair trial, I doubt a dentist from Minnesota would have that clout but who knows.

If he was involved with it from the beginning then he's scum. You said he should of been able to see the collar, that's not true, especially with a mane. I've seen collared elk and I couldn't see the collar until I was about right on top of them. He should of know his proximity to the nature preserve and maybe paid better attention to his guides actions but if he was on another jeep and had no idea this lion was lured to where it was then he mighta thought he found that giant lone lion stomping the planes. That's an ideal lion to kill, it doesn't have a pride.

Like I said in my very first post in this thread it's very nuanced and we will see how it plays out in the end. And I'm definitely sticking to my much debated opinion that hunting these animals is saving them, watch the Louie Theroux doc and get back to me.

originally posted by: jaffo

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: Grimpachi

originally posted by: IanFleming

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: crazyewok

This isnt about a legal hunt for conservation.

This is a about a gun (Well crossbow happy) happy dip# who lured a protected Lion out of a reservation and shot it illegally.

I hunt local deer and rabbits, but I do it LEGALLY.

Twats like him give the rest of us a bad name.

Actually from everything that has been written about this in articles. The guy hired a safari group to do a legal hunt. He paid full price for a legal hunt.

The group that was hired lured the lion and there was a local villager who was complacent. Both the villager and the safari group is facing punishment maybe even some prison for those directly involved.


I see a lot of speculation/opinions that he knew the group he hired was breaking the law, but no evidence to that effect. In fact him purposely breaking the law doesn't make any sense at all.

The outrage here seems a bit misplaced or completely misplaced. It should be focused on the "so called professional guides" and the safari group. Most of the outrage I am reading is against any hunters.

But, who cares about facts? It doesn't look like many to me.

So, what you are saying is that he hired a legal hunt but then may have been defrauded by one of (or more) of the guides-- sort of like some one buying something in a shop and not realizing it was stolen goods because it was in a legitimate shop and it was the shop keeper that did the stealing, not the customer?

I can see that as possible, certainly.

Human nature is that people want to get what they pay for.

I looked up the licensing fees there and it is 24K to hunt a lion he paid between 50 and 54k so at least 25k went to the safari group. It was their job to find him a legal kill.

It is also human nature for people to take the easy way out and make quick cash.

Who had the most to gain by doing this? It wasn't the hunter.

Doesnt matter how much ge paid or what he had to gain.

If he knew what he was doing he is guilty along with the guides.


Dont know why people are jumping to his defence...,

Because they are exposing themselves as nothing more than contrarians. Tell them the sky is blue and they will give you a YouTube video explaining why it is red. Tell them this guy is a scumbag and they will jump to his defense. Because they;re smarter than you. Welcome to ATS in 2015. . .

No I think its more simple than that.

They are simply defending him cause he is a fellow american and they protect there own. They think he has the right to go round the world and shoot # up legal or not.

Now not all Americans are like this but face it many feel there US passort entitles them to "special" treatment abroad,
Hell many of us Brits are the same!

originally posted by: mindseye1609
a reply to: jaffo

If he thought it was all on the up and up and officials are involved and sold him a tag and whatnot... This is gonna get very nuanced and messy.. Let's just hope he's not to rich as to skew a fair trial, I doubt a dentist from Minnesota would have that clout but who knows.

If he was involved with it from the beginning then he's scum. You said he should of been able to see the collar, that's not true, especially with a mane. I've seen collared elk and I couldn't see the collar until I was about right on top of them. He should of know his proximity to the nature preserve and maybe paid better attention to his guides actions but if he was on another jeep and had no idea this lion was lured to where it was then he mighta thought he found that giant lone lion stomping the planes. That's an ideal lion to kill, it doesn't have a pride.

Like I said in my very first post in this thread it's very nuanced and we will see how it plays out in the end. And I'm definitely sticking to my much debated opinion that hunting these animals is saving them, watch the Louie Theroux doc and get back to me.

Although I don't buy it, I cannot argue with the valid points you raise. Still, I do not like this guy for his history, this incident aside. I'll tell you one thing. . . this guy ain't EVER going to Zimbabwe to hunt again, lol.

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: jaffo

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: Grimpachi

originally posted by: IanFleming

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: crazyewok

This isnt about a legal hunt for conservation.

This is a about a gun (Well crossbow happy) happy dip# who lured a protected Lion out of a reservation and shot it illegally.

I hunt local deer and rabbits, but I do it LEGALLY.

Twats like him give the rest of us a bad name.

Actually from everything that has been written about this in articles. The guy hired a safari group to do a legal hunt. He paid full price for a legal hunt.

The group that was hired lured the lion and there was a local villager who was complacent. Both the villager and the safari group is facing punishment maybe even some prison for those directly involved.


I see a lot of speculation/opinions that he knew the group he hired was breaking the law, but no evidence to that effect. In fact him purposely breaking the law doesn't make any sense at all.

The outrage here seems a bit misplaced or completely misplaced. It should be focused on the "so called professional guides" and the safari group. Most of the outrage I am reading is against any hunters.

But, who cares about facts? It doesn't look like many to me.

So, what you are saying is that he hired a legal hunt but then may have been defrauded by one of (or more) of the guides-- sort of like some one buying something in a shop and not realizing it was stolen goods because it was in a legitimate shop and it was the shop keeper that did the stealing, not the customer?

I can see that as possible, certainly.

Human nature is that people want to get what they pay for.

I looked up the licensing fees there and it is 24K to hunt a lion he paid between 50 and 54k so at least 25k went to the safari group. It was their job to find him a legal kill.

It is also human nature for people to take the easy way out and make quick cash.

Who had the most to gain by doing this? It wasn't the hunter.

Doesnt matter how much ge paid or what he had to gain.

If he knew what he was doing he is guilty along with the guides.


Dont know why people are jumping to his defence...,

Because they are exposing themselves as nothing more than contrarians. Tell them the sky is blue and they will give you a YouTube video explaining why it is red. Tell them this guy is a scumbag and they will jump to his defense. Because they;re smarter than you. Welcome to ATS in 2015. . .

No I think its more simple than that.

They are simply defending him cause he is a fellow american and they protect there own. They think he has the right to go round the world and shoot # up legal or not.

Now not all Americans are like this but face it many feel there US passoot entitles them to "special" treatment abroad,
Hell many of us Brits are the same!

I hope not. And I do have to say, being in New Jersey, NO ONE you speak to here in person or online has anything but genuine hate and venom for this guy. I do feel badly for his children. But not his wife. She polishes this loser's helmet for him, so the heck with her.

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: Grimpachi

originally posted by: IanFleming

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: crazyewok

This isnt about a legal hunt for conservation.

This is a about a gun (Well crossbow happy) happy dip# who lured a protected Lion out of a reservation and shot it illegally.

I hunt local deer and rabbits, but I do it LEGALLY.

Twats like him give the rest of us a bad name.

Actually from everything that has been written about this in articles. The guy hired a safari group to do a legal hunt. He paid full price for a legal hunt.

The group that was hired lured the lion and there was a local villager who was complacent. Both the villager and the safari group is facing punishment maybe even some prison for those directly involved.


I see a lot of speculation/opinions that he knew the group he hired was breaking the law, but no evidence to that effect. In fact him purposely breaking the law doesn't make any sense at all.

The outrage here seems a bit misplaced or completely misplaced. It should be focused on the "so called professional guides" and the safari group. Most of the outrage I am reading is against any hunters.

But, who cares about facts? It doesn't look like many to me.

So, what you are saying is that he hired a legal hunt but then may have been defrauded by one of (or more) of the guides-- sort of like some one buying something in a shop and not realizing it was stolen goods because it was in a legitimate shop and it was the shop keeper that did the stealing, not the customer?

I can see that as possible, certainly.

Human nature is that people want to get what they pay for.

I looked up the licensing fees there and it is 24K to hunt a lion he paid between 50 and 54k so at least 25k went to the safari group. It was their job to find him a legal kill.

It is also human nature for people to take the easy way out and make quick cash.

Who had the most to gain by doing this? It wasn't the hunter.

Doesnt matter how much ge paid or what he had to gain.

If he knew what he was doing he is guilty along with the guides.


Dont know why people are jumping to his defence...,

"IF" he knew he was breaking the law then I am all for crucifying him alongside the rest of you.

Until that is proven then I rather prefer the premise of "innocent until proven guilty".

Even if it isn't popular with many.

originally posted by: jaffo

originally posted by: IanFleming

originally posted by: jaffo
They went straight to the edge of the preserve and lured the animal out by dragging a carcass behind a vehicle. He knew damned well what he was doing. And then he tried to hide and break the collar after they killed it, cutting off the head to remove the thing. The ONLY reason this came out is because one of the hunters got cold feet and came clean. The guy did it with full knowledge of what he was doing. It's pathetic.

The court of law has to prove that it was him that did all of this knowingly and not the guide. The guide could have lured it out of the area without him knowing and then leading him to the lion after it was outside the area. The guide's job is to guide you to the animal.

He killed a protected animal. He has admitted to having done so. As a responsible hunter, he sure as hell had to have seen the animal well enough before taking the shot to know that it was collared and hence protected, especially given the proximity to the preserve. For my money, he is admittedly guilty. And a Grade A human queef for going around the World and killing superior predators to make up for his own below the belt shortcomings. But that's just my opinion.

Well, he said that he he thought the hunt was legal and he paid a company a good amount of money to ensure it was a legal hunt with all permits paid for and legal. If true, he is innocent of a crime. If not, he should be punished. I don't see that as an unreasonable position.

As for the others, why aren't you disgusted by the country of Zimbabwe that makes these hunts legal and profits off them as well? If it were not for the laws of that country, there would be no legal hunts at all.

a reply to: Grimpachi

It was collared, he knew. You don't just show up in Africa and wildly start shooting. You research, you learn the rules, you have to sign contracts initialing your understanding of the rules and regulations. He knew he was leaving Hwange. They lured it, these conversations all took place during the hunt, I wouldn't give him the benefit of the doubt especially given he's a repeat offender.

eta : IN Zim, National Parks Hunting Permits with hounds requires a National Parks scout who is present on actual hunt. Bushman safaris is the only hounds with big cat tour operator. All this is in their contract with client or they would not have been given a license .

a reply to: zazzafrazz

So you are an expert now? How many lion hunts have you been on that you can confidently claim how hunts are done?

10, 20?

Could it be 0 if the number is zero then I will just chalk up your claims as made up BS. Along with your claim of knowing what conversations they had.

a reply to: Grimpachi

I am a expert in tourism. I would have managed and supplied thousands of tour operator contracts.

I know more about it than you trophy hunting is just one form of tourism. I am well versed in tour operations for every continent/. Its one of my businesses. So yeah I am expert

a reply to: zazzafrazz

I am a expert in tourism.

I see your edit.


So you are not claiming to have ever hunted a lion? But you have bought supplies before. good to know.

a reply to: Grimpachi

I'm sorry you don''t understand that I am an expert in tour operations, inclusive of Africa. I have dealt with tour operators for Okavango Delta, Hwange, Krueger and many other parks....Sorry must peeve you

a reply to: zazzafrazz

I am not peeved.

I just smell BS.


Would you mind saying just how many times you have been to Africa and how many safaris you have arranged or have been on?

a reply to: Grimpachi

YeahI have been, but I don't have to answer how many times. I have mentioned on ATS radio my travels and have some threads on it. Sounds like it DOES peeve you , but I won't lose sleep if you think I'm lying. Accusing me of lying is a last ditch measure and a foot stamp/sour grapes Grim, didn't think I'd see that from you.
Anyway the cat was collared. They went out of HWANGE, there is no way he did not know this was happening and he saw the collar. It was a lure not a stalk out of park, his tour was for a hound hunt IN HWANGE.
Defend the jerk by all means *shrugs*

a reply to: zazzafrazz

I only asked some simple questions. You don't have to answer, but I find it suspicious that you don't.


As far as the collar that you claim he must have seen we are talking about a lion. They do have a lot of hair and even on my house pets collars are not seen easily and lions have far more hair than them.


But go ahead and claim to be an expert because you know tourism. Go ahead and claim to know what their conversations were about because you know tourism.

I expected better of you as well.

You can talk and talk and come up with all kinds of crap to somehow make this guy seem like a poor, misled victim - he's NOT!! He paid a stupid amount of money to go and slaughter a wild animal, for fun - yes, as a hobby, as something to do and take pictures of and mount the decapitated head on his wall.

Of course they lured the lion out illegally, smashed the collar and all kinds of other underhand, illegal crap.
But first and foremost, this man murders wild animals for FUN.
Bears, Rhino, Lions, Cheetahs and many, many other beautiful animals.

I hope his life is destroyed and he loses his business and all his money.
Then he'll remember that time he spent $50k on a trip to slaughter the king of the animals.

Asshat.

a reply to: Grimpachi

By saying you thought better of me means you are saying I'm lying. Which I am not. But thats no skin off my nose I find it funny that is the last resort of attack, either that or spelling errors when people have lost an argument...so, anyway less about me revealing personal information to satisfy you and more on Cecil.

What I do know about tours in Africa are you sign a contract upon payment and you review the contract before entering a national park. As an example only a few people are afforded a gorillas tour permit, and only limited numbers for a trek in. You are advised of exactly what you can and can't do on this type of safari.

There is no way given he had been in trouble with he law before about killing outside of designated zones he did not know he was limited to Hwange. They lured. That was their hunt technique, you understand that immediately makes him complicit to remove a well known (best known ) lion from Hwange. There is no way Bushman tours did not know Cecil he was literally a superstar of the park and they had been operating there since 92. Collar or not, he was known. But they then try to destroy the collar instead of reporting it and the jerk still takes the head and skin as his trophy....
he knew, he decapitated the animal and took the trophy. He still had an opportunity to not try and destroy the collar (which are actually visible when on Safari) and report the kill to authorities.

The argument about whether he saw it or not is moot, he Lured, then destroyed evidence. He would have been able to report an accidental shooting of a collared lion, that option was still open to him. But he didn't. He broke the law when he lured, took the head and then destroyed evidence.

a reply to: zazzafrazz

By saying you thought better of me means you are saying I'm lying. Which I am not.

Lying? No.

Throwing out opinion as if it were fact? Yes.

What I do know about tours in Africa are you sign a contract upon payment and you review the contract before entering a national park. As an example only a few people are afforded a gorillas tour permit, and only limited numbers for a trek in. You are advised of exactly what you can and can't do on this type of safari.

I read pretty much the same thing on a safari tour website as well. So I am sure that is correct.

There is no way given he had been in trouble with he law before about killing outside of designated zones he did not know he was limited to Hwange.

So does that mean when people have done stupid things they always learn from their mistakes? Or, is this just prosecution due to previous prosecution?

They lured.

Who are they? I thought I read that it was a local farmer who lured the lion off of the preservation.

That was their hunt technique, you understand that immediately makes him complicit to remove a well known (best known ) lion from Hwange.

Yet the government charged the farmer closed the tour company and may be imprisoning the farmer and the guide, but they have only suspended the hunters license permit until the investigation is over. (but, those in the know, know he is guilty right)

Since I can't find the law concerning "complicity" of a crime for Zimbabwe here is a link to what it means for the US What is Complicity or Accomplice Liability?

US law says one has to at least know a crime is being committed. Maybe you can find the law for their country and it will not require being knowledgeable of the crime.

There is no way Bushman tours did not know Cecil he was literally a superstar of the park and they had been operating there since 92. Collar or not, he was known. But they then try to destroy the collar instead of reporting it and the jerk still takes the head and skin as his trophy....

I completely agree that the tour company/guide that lives and works in that country should know who Cecil was. I thought this was about the hunter who paid the tour company. When you say they tried to destroy the collar who is "they".

Also from the articles on this it has been said they do not know where the head or skin is or who is in possession of it. Have you read different?

he knew, he decapitated the animal and took the trophy. He still had an opportunity to not try and destroy the collar (which are actually visible when on Safari) and report the kill to authorities

I really would like to see the article you are referencing for your information from especially stating who did what and who has what.

The argument about whether he saw it or not is moot

I disagree especially since you claimed he had to have seen it.

he Lured

Did he now?

then destroyed evidence.

I just love the "facts" that keep changing.

He would have been able to report an accidental shooting of a collared lion, that option was still open to him. But he didn't.

Just my opinion here, but that should have been done by the tour company he hired since they know the area, laws, regulation, and it would be part of what they are paid to do.

He broke the law when he lured, took the head and then destroyed evidence.

As a statement of fact you can link that information of course?

originally posted by: zazzafrazz

The argument about whether he saw it or not is moot, he Lured, then destroyed evidence. He would have been able to report an accidental shooting of a collared lion, that option was still open to him. But he didn't. He broke the law when he lured, took the head and then destroyed evidence.

Were you following them around with a cellphone camera? Or does someone have video?

Who exactly is reporting this information?