Is Islam the Solution to the West's Deep Internal Malaise?

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: grandmakdw

My point is capable of defending or even discussing Muslim actions without slamming Christians

They are sibling religions. One can't really separate the two if one is going to discuss "religions".
You seem to have mastered the plate juggling that is condemning ALL Muslims (many of whom live peacefully and moderately, and many of those are here on ATS) though, while ignoring not only the good things some of them do (like Malala, for one, and like the American Muslims who stepped up to help rebuild a Christian church recently for another [oh wait, I used Muslims interacting with Christians, so that's probably out of bounds, too])

Fix your own team before blanketly condemning another, please. What a hateful post - and yet you felt compelled to twist the OP into a Christian slamming thread? Not just once, but TWICE!

The OP was very well written, but utterly unconvincing. Your posts in it are off topic and malicious in every way.

Why is it unconvincing, can you please explain in more depth?

I know it's jarring to be taken out of your comfort zone, but a rational look at the West today reveals a striking hypocrisy, as others have mentioned.

Just looking at our rates of consumption alone destroys the argument of Western moral superiority. You want to keep your (unsustainable) lifestyles while choking the environment and living off third world slave labor, and then preach to me about how wrong I am and how righteous your society is?

originally posted by: Drest

Just looking at our rates of consumption alone destroys the argument of Western moral superiority. You want to keep your (unsustainable) lifestyles while choking the environment and living off third world slave labor, and then preach to me about how wrong I am and how righteous your society is?

What society, pray tell, do you live in?


Your 'magic bullet' won't work, because once you start forcing people to believe you have already lost the battle.

originally posted by: Drest

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: grandmakdw

My point is capable of defending or even discussing Muslim actions without slamming Christians

They are sibling religions. One can't really separate the two if one is going to discuss "religions".
You seem to have mastered the plate juggling that is condemning ALL Muslims (many of whom live peacefully and moderately, and many of those are here on ATS) though, while ignoring not only the good things some of them do (like Malala, for one, and like the American Muslims who stepped up to help rebuild a Christian church recently for another [oh wait, I used Muslims interacting with Christians, so that's probably out of bounds, too])

Fix your own team before blanketly condemning another, please. What a hateful post - and yet you felt compelled to twist the OP into a Christian slamming thread? Not just once, but TWICE!

The OP was very well written, but utterly unconvincing. Your posts in it are off topic and malicious in every way.

Why is it unconvincing, can you please explain in more depth?

I know it's jarring to be taken out of your comfort zone, but a rational look at the West today reveals a striking hypocrisy, as others have mentioned.

Just looking at our rates of consumption alone destroys the argument of Western moral superiority. You want to keep your (unsustainable) lifestyles while choking the environment and living off third world slave labor, and then preach to me about how wrong I am and how righteous your society is?

Let's look at Muslim countries in action.

How they are currently behaving, the reality of a fully Muslim society.

Saudi Arabia has many "unpaid" domestic workers, even though slavery is outlawed, "unpaid" domestic workers are common.
Actual real slavery is practiced in fully Muslim societies.
It is real slaves that Muslim's have and buy and sell.

Saudi Arabia doesn't allow women to drive

Nearly all fully Muslim countries force women to cover their bodies,
and do not allow women on the street without a male relative: the reason most often gives is men in Muslim countries have absolutely no self control and are compelled by women to rape them if they see a arm or calf, and they are compelled by their lack of self control and being "enticed" by seeing a woman alone: to rape a woman alone on the street

Many Muslim countries allow female genital mutilation so that intercourse is painful always for women: this is to prevent women from cheating on husbands because intercourse is excruciating after the genital mutilation

Apostasy is punishable by execution (the conscious abandonment of Islam by a Muslim in word or through deed. It includes the act of converting to another religion, or becoming non-religious, by a person who was born in a Muslim family or who had previously accepted Islam.)
www.vocativ.com...

Women are forced to marry men they do not wish to marry

Little girls are forced to marry much older men.


These are all things that are legal in many middle eastern countries that live under Shariah law and are living the life you think everyone in the US should live.

Your ideal is much like communism, a wonderful utopia in theory,
but hell on earth in practice for most of the people who live under it.

Tell us which Shariah compliant country, one that is living fully under Islamic law, that in practice is the utopia you think that everyone converting will be.

I'm not saying the US is perfect, by far it is not. However, when I look at fully Muslim countries I see a life of hell on earth especially for 50% of the population, girls and women.

Why are all of these legal and shariah compliant items above part of a utopia that you think the US women would want to live under or should live under?

Consumption has more than just materialism related to it, and I am unconvinced that the "West" is more consuming than the Muslim world.

The opulence and consumption of many Muslim nations is staggering at the highest echelons of the rich... unparalleled across the world... have you been to Dubai or some of the emerging cities in Katar? The rate of consumption there far exceeds anything else happening in the world, even China, and more than balances the "masses" consumption of the majority of people in the east vs west citizen’s disparities.

While abhorable in every country in the world, and getting worse daily, the distance between the rich and poor in Muslim countries is much further apart than in western countries, so open your eyes to the inequality of all cultures, rather than casting your ire at the west.

Even the current state is a necessary step in the growth of our global culture… and it is rigid ideologies that threaten our cumulative progress the most… how long will it take us all to accept differences and live in dichotomous harmony?

Apart from the materialistic side of consumption, Islam has always, for as long as it has existed, been the worst culprit for cultural consumption.

Islam has only ever appeared to be innovative in discovery by conquering and subsuming other cultures, claiming ownership of the dying vestiges of their cultures and great thinkers before a non-progressive ideology crushes all original thought before moving onto another conquest.

Diversity is the key to progress... and Islam stifles diversity as evidenced in your OP. In fact, almost all ideological constructs stifle diversity, including the newest player in a long list of ideologies... corporatism.

Get off your high horse, and come down to the reality that the people of the planet, in all colours, shapes sizes and thoughts, are what matter, not the ideologies that we all find ourselves swayed by at some point in our lives.

You paint with a one sided broad brush of negativity in your OP… there is good and bad to be had in all cultures, and as a whole we are constantly progressing, with wonders unimagined even a hundred years ago now commonplace to a larger ratio of society than ever before.

Life is a balance, and for everything good there will likely be a simulacrum of bad… and vice versa… Look for the balance of good and bad, and you will see the complex tapestry of humanity… don’t fight it… accept it.

When I look at the world, I see an extraodinary balance... a breadth of thought and interaction that is truly amazing... more than any single person can ever completely comprehend. From wars and horriffic acts, singly and collectively on one end of the scale... to selfless acts, communication and overwhelming connection on the other end of the scale. In all acts there is an element of dicovery...

The necessity of rigidly conservative tought such as your OP will always find an inverse in the liberalism of free love on the other hand, in a never ending feedback loop. Is either the answer?... In my opinion no... but both contradictory positions existing simultaneously is a necessity for growth.

Educating towards individualism and acceptance of others is what will “save” this diverse world, and progress to a deeper understanding of the human condition.

originally posted by: Drest
Why is it unconvincing, can you please explain in more depth?

Well, I'm not Buzzy but, I would guess that painting Islamic countires as utopian is probably a red flag for anyone who has been around the block at least once.

Just looking at our rates of consumption alone destroys the argument of Western moral superiority. You want to keep your (unsustainable) lifestyles while choking the environment and living off third world slave labor, and then preach to me about how wrong I am and how righteous your society is?

You are wrong but that doesn't mean their society is righteous. You just set up a false dichotomy.

a reply to: Drest

I know it's jarring to be taken out of your comfort zone, but a rational look at the West today reveals a striking hypocrisy, as others have mentioned.

And, so - what do you think is my "comfort zone"?

A rational look at the Middle East reveals a striking hypocrisy......Every bit as much as does Evangelical Biblical Literalism.


Both - weak. Both - outdated. Both - irrelevant and useless and antiquated and supremely divisive.

The OP was so right, so accurate about society and very well written. But then came the punch line...literally after the line. Self control, respect, morals and values...all these things we have lost long ago. But replace them as part of a religion of hate, fear and death and frankly...stupidity? No thanks. But they should be reinstated.

a reply to: Drest

Sorry, you'll have to chop off my head.

a reply to: Drest

You want to keep your (unsustainable) lifestyles while choking the environment and living off third world slave labor, and then preach to me about how wrong I am and how righteous your society is?

No, I don't want to 'preach to you'.
I want you to realize that MILLIONS of Americans are concerned about the environment, and are concerned about the 'third world slave labor' that is "globalism", and DO think that multinational corporations that started in the USA should be paying taxes......and those same "Progressive" voters are getting on board with Bernie Sanders.


My "society" is not 'righteous.' Not by a long shot.
Neither is yours.

Thanks for playing.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Drest

You want to keep your (unsustainable) lifestyles while choking the environment and living off third world slave labor, and then preach to me about how wrong I am and how righteous your society is?

No, I don't want to 'preach to you'.
I want you to realize that MILLIONS of Americans are concerned about the environment, and are concerned about the 'third world slave labor' that is "globalism", and DO think that multinational corporations that started in the USA should be paying taxes......and those same "Progressive" voters are getting on board with Bernie Sanders.


My "society" is not 'righteous.' Not by a long shot.
Neither is yours.

Thanks for playing.

frankly, we'd like our jobs back that those third world "slaves" are working in. see, this is another example of why WE are blamed for what the elite are doing. it is not OUR fault, any more than it is the fault of your average jewish person that their leaders do bad things, or that leaders of nations in which some christians exist, are evidence that christians are to fault for the poor choices their nation's elite do.

can we please stop blaming each other for once.

i mean what.a.concept

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: Drest
Why is it unconvincing, can you please explain in more depth?

Well, I'm not Buzzy but, I would guess that painting Islamic countires as utopian is probably a red flag for anyone who has been around the block at least once.

Just looking at our rates of consumption alone destroys the argument of Western moral superiority. You want to keep your (unsustainable) lifestyles while choking the environment and living off third world slave labor, and then preach to me about how wrong I am and how righteous your society is?

You are wrong but that doesn't mean their society is righteous. You just set up a false dichotomy.

Maybe you should have read through the thread more closely. I didn't set up any false dichotomy. There are literally people saying that the west is morally superior. They said it, not me.

Sorry, try again.

originally posted by: Drest
Maybe you should have read through the thread more closely. I didn't set up any false dichotomy.

You set it up in the OP when you set up western society as sick and Islam as the soultion.

originally posted by: puzzlesphere
Consumption has more than just materialism related to it, and I am unconvinced that the "West" is more consuming than the Muslim world.

The opulence and consumption of many Muslim nations is staggering at the highest echelons of the rich... unparalleled across the world... have you been to Dubai or some of the emerging cities in Katar? The rate of consumption there far exceeds anything else happening in the world, even China, and more than balances the "masses" consumption of the majority of people in the east vs west citizen’s disparities.

While abhorable in every country in the world, and getting worse daily, the distance between the rich and poor in Muslim countries is much further apart than in western countries, so open your eyes to the inequality of all cultures, rather than casting your ire at the west.

Even the current state is a necessary step in the growth of our global culture… and it is rigid ideologies that threaten our cumulative progress the most… how long will it take us all to accept differences and live in dichotomous harmony?

Apart from the materialistic side of consumption, Islam has always, for as long as it has existed, been the worst culprit for cultural consumption.

Islam has only ever appeared to be innovative in discovery by conquering and subsuming other cultures, claiming ownership of the dying vestiges of their cultures and great thinkers before a non-progressive ideology crushes all original thought before moving onto another conquest.

Diversity is the key to progress... and Islam stifles diversity as evidenced in your OP. In fact, almost all ideological constructs stifle diversity, including the newest player in a long list of ideologies... corporatism.

Get off your high horse, and come down to the reality that the people of the planet, in all colours, shapes sizes and thoughts, are what matter, not the ideologies that we all find ourselves swayed by at some point in our lives.

You paint with a one sided broad brush of negativity in your OP… there is good and bad to be had in all cultures, and as a whole we are constantly progressing, with wonders unimagined even a hundred years ago now commonplace to a larger ratio of society than ever before.

Life is a balance, and for everything good there will likely be a simulacrum of bad… and vice versa… Look for the balance of good and bad, and you will see the complex tapestry of humanity… don’t fight it… accept it.

When I look at the world, I see an extraodinary balance... a breadth of thought and interaction that is truly amazing... more than any single person can ever completely comprehend. From wars and horriffic acts, singly and collectively on one end of the scale... to selfless acts, communication and overwhelming connection on the other end of the scale. In all acts there is an element of dicovery...

The necessity of rigidly conservative tought such as your OP will always find an inverse in the liberalism of free love on the other hand, in a never ending feedback loop. Is either the answer?... In my opinion no... but both contradictory positions existing simultaneously is a necessity for growth.

Educating towards individualism and acceptance of others is what will “save” this diverse world, and progress to a deeper understanding of the human condition.

It's nice that you live in a fantasy of "extraordinary balance", but the rest of the world isn't so lucky. All the amenities and comforts you enjoy, that allow you to spend time imagining hilarious notions like that, have to come from somewhere. They came from the sweat and blood of people who don't have the luxury to imagine a world of "extraordinary balance".

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: Drest
Maybe you should have read through the thread more closely. I didn't set up any false dichotomy.

You set it up in the OP when you set up western society as sick and Islam as the soultion.

I dealt with specifics in the OP. The specific qualities present in Islam, mainly discipline and disdain for self-gratification, are in direct opposition to the materialism present in western culture. There is a dichotomy, but not a false one.

I presented Islam as a solution in light of those qualities. Not the only solution, but a solution nonetheless.

They could go ahead and start preparing mass graves because there would be one hell of a lot of dead American Women. I would be one of them because I most certainly would kill myself before I lived in a world where I had to do what men told me to do. Husbands'; fathers'; brothers; uncles. Screw that. I'd die by my own hand before I answered to those dictators and to those who felt so superior to me, as that is a long forgotten lie in this country. Plus, I hate the way they dress. I mean, it's hideous and oppressive.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Drest

You want to keep your (unsustainable) lifestyles while choking the environment and living off third world slave labor, and then preach to me about how wrong I am and how righteous your society is?

No, I don't want to 'preach to you'.
I want you to realize that MILLIONS of Americans are concerned about the environment, and are concerned about the 'third world slave labor' that is "globalism", and DO think that multinational corporations that started in the USA should be paying taxes......and those same "Progressive" voters are getting on board with Bernie Sanders.


My "society" is not 'righteous.' Not by a long shot.
Neither is yours.

Thanks for playing.

Concerned about it, and yet they do almost nothing. In the grand scheme of things, your little activist movements are just side-shows and hobbies. They are insignificant in the face of big business and globalism. You're still complacent and self-satisfied, and most of you aren't genuinely fired up about these things, as long as you can cling to your petty comforts and amenities when you come home from work at night.

originally posted by: angeldoll
They could go ahead and start preparing mass graves because there would be one hell of a lot of dead American Women. I would be one of them because I most certainly would kill myself before I lived in a world where I had to do what men told me to do. Husbands'; fathers'; brothers; uncles. Screw that. I'd die by my own hand before I answered to those dictators and to those who felt so superior to me, as that is a long forgotten lie in this country. Plus, I hate the way they dress. I mean, it's hideous and oppressive.

Meh, if an Islamic theocracy took power in the US and started implementing those kinds of policies (which I don't support btw), most American women would probably just shut up and accept it. When faced with harsh punishment and death, compliance is easily forthcoming. The majority are not willing to die for their "rights".

originally posted by: Drest
I dealt with specifics in the OP. The specific qualities present in Islam, mainly discipline and disdain for self-gratification, are in direct opposition to the materialism present in western culture. There is a dichotomy, but not a false one.

The specific qualities of Islam "on paper" are no different than the specific qualities of any other moral system "on paper".

If you were honest about human nature, you would see how false that dichotomy really is.

a reply to: Drest

What would your society do to the folks who did not wish to convert?

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: Drest

What would your society do to the folks who did not wish to convert?

Death to the infidel.


Just kidding. Ideally they'd convert of their own volition, and I'd rather not say anything more because it would just further incriminate me in the eyes of these people.