"Worthless"

What's ironic to me is that the people I know that have worked the hardest to get "rich" are also some of the most compassionate people. They give to charities, donate to college funds, and KNOW how hard it is to work minimum wage AND get ahead.

It's the people that never had to struggle that seem to be machine-like about the poor. Those that lucked out, came from a middle-class family or only spent a brief time being poor seem to be the ones railing against the poor the hardest. They then use their brief stints of pseudo-poverty as an excuse to "understand" and arm themselves for arguments with it.

"How much does a library card cost" one conservative says...

I say, "How can you afford time at the library when you're working full time? How can you find time to read those books from the library?"

Time. It comes down to time. Those working in poverty don't have the luxury of time that those with more money have. Missing one day of work can mean not eating a dinner or two. Getting sick for a few days can mean a bill goes unpaid.

How the heck are these people supposed to better themselves when they're so close to being straight up homeless living out of a shopping cart?

It's not easy to pull yourself up by the bootstraps when you come into the world without boots.

a reply to: Aazadan

Nice job breaking that all down. I couldn't be bothered to do it because there isn't any convincing someome who thinks that's it's entirely possible to live on minimum wage without government assistance anymore.

a reply to: Aazadan

The additional cost of wage increases isn't a 1:1 correlation with higher pay. Labor costs are typically 33% of a businesses expenses, a 10% increase in wages results in a 10% increase on that 33% or 3.33% increase in the cost of the product. Now people are earning 10% more but only paying 3.33% more.

That would be great if that were the case, but what else is included in a business' cost? Cost of materials right, and those are another 30% or so, depending on the industry. And what is the price of those materials based on? You got it, more labor! So now we are up to 6.5%. And what eats up the other 3rd? Operational costs (utilities, interest, taxes, marketing, etc) Some of those are also affected by... you guessed it... labor! So let's be optimistic here and say that the business owner doesn't take any extra profits, charging more. So now we're paying 7% more for a 10% wage increase on 2 percent of the population. Great right!? So why not raise the minimum wage 100% or 1000% I mean if the gains are so good on a 10% increase, they've got to be better on a 100% or 1000% increase, right?

I will probably never earn more than minimum wage in my life.

Wow, that's a bleak outlook on life. It doesn't take much to earn more than minimum wage. I mean, only 2% of the country earns minimum wage. You really see yourself and your skills in the bottom 2% of the nation? I guess with that attitude you are probably correct.

If there are 10 good jobs and 100 people to fill them, 10 people get a good job and 90 don't. One of those 90 can work really hard and get one of those 10, but that simply displaces one of the original 10 and it's still a 10/90 split. This is what the economy is like right now, except instead of 10 good jobs over time we're trending downwards to 9, then 8, then 7, and so on.

The economy is not a fixed economy. So let's continue with your analogy, those 10 people create a product that grows more successful and can now hire a couple more people. This happens all of the time. I mean domino's pizza started as a single store, now there are 16,000.

$25/worth of paint, $10 canvas, a few hours of time and talent = worth $100+. That's wealth creation. it's not a finite pie.

originally posted by: EternalSolace
a reply to: Aazadan

Nice job breaking that all down. I couldn't be bothered to do it because there isn't any convincing someome who thinks that's it's entirely possible to live on minimum wage without government assistance anymore.

Except if you follow along, he didn't break anything down. He just made up a bunch of crap to throw on there to justify the position of people wanting to ignore the reality of the situation. He added one expense that works out to be ~$30 month. Hardly budget breaking.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

They give to charities, donate to college funds, and KNOW how hard it is to work minimum wage AND get ahead.

At mcdonalds, you get promoted to assistant manager, pretty much by default, if you last more than a year. Then you're making fair money.

It's the people that never had to struggle that seem to be machine-like about the poor. Those that lucked out, came from a middle-class family or only spent a brief time being poor seem to be the ones railing against the poor the hardest. They then use their brief stints of pseudo-poverty as an excuse to "understand" and arm themselves for arguments with it.

Maybe you're speaking of people you know personally, otherwise, how would you know every person's situation? Or is this just a blind toss of mud to smear those who you disagree with? I suspected such.

I say, "How can you afford time at the library when you're working full time? How can you find time to read those books from the library?"

Let's see, there are MANY people (including yours truly) who went to school full time and worked full time throughout. Yet you're complaining that full time work makes it too hard to get to the library for a few hours a week!? LOL

How the heck are these people supposed to better themselves when they're so close to being straight up homeless living out of a shopping cart?

So you're arguing that if your poor there's nothing you can do about it? Well, you're right, if you have your kind of mindset.

a reply to: dagann

Thank you. Dagann. Looking forward to reading that material.

originally posted by: Dfairlite
That would be great if that were the case, but what else is included in a business' cost? Cost of materials right, and those are another 30% or so, depending on the industry. And what is the price of those materials based on? You got it, more labor! So now we are up to 6.5%. And what eats up the other 3rd? Operational costs (utilities, interest, taxes, marketing, etc) Some of those are also affected by... you guessed it... labor! So let's be optimistic here and say that the business owner doesn't take any extra profits, charging more. So now we're paying 7% more for a 10% wage increase on 2 percent of the population. Great right!? So why not raise the minimum wage 100% or 1000% I mean if the gains are so good on a 10% increase, they've got to be better on a 100% or 1000% increase, right?

There is an inherent value in the product as well, and this exists backwards through the supply chain. Lets take a coffee shop. The owner is paying for the property with the land, building, and infrastructure having an inherent value, the owner is paying for labor, and the owner is paying for a raw product (coffee beans, syrups, etc) that are then processed into a new item. Labor is only a fraction of the value of the end result.

As for why you can't raise labor prices by 100% or 1000%? You can however with international markets and even interstate commerce where the dollar buys more or less in different areas you run into a cap on just how high prices can be risen while still remaining competitive. An American technology company for example cannot do work for a Chinese company if they have to pay all of their employees $500,000 per hour, the Chinese company will instead go with someone who bids lower. The reverse is also true, and what I have experienced. I cannot charge even $15/hour for my labor to do something like build a database, program a website, or write an app because a person in India can live very comfortably while doing it for $3 per hour, to be competitive I have to be able to do in a day what takes them a week which takes a lot more skill than I currently have.

Wow, that's a bleak outlook on life. It doesn't take much to earn more than minimum wage. I mean, only 2% of the country earns minimum wage. You really see yourself and your skills in the bottom 2% of the nation? I guess with that attitude you are probably correct.

It may be bleak but it's being completely honest. It takes a lot more than you think to earn more than minimum wage, I've got multiple college degrees and I'm not there yet. Also, much more than 2% of the country earns minimum wage. If you want to be technical about it 2% earn exactly the minimum wage but 35% of the country is within 10% of their states minimum wage, which is close enough for me to call it the exact same thing and that 2% total refers to only the people making the federal minimum, which automatically excludes every single worker in any state that has above the federal minimum wage. On top of that, even if it weren't me it would be someone else who falls within that statistical range which is the exact same thing.

The economy is not a fixed economy. So let's continue with your analogy, those 10 people create a product that grows more successful and can now hire a couple more people. This happens all of the time. I mean domino's pizza started as a single store, now there are 16,000.

$25/worth of paint, $10 canvas, a few hours of time and talent = worth $100+. That's wealth creation. it's not a finite pie.

It is a fixed economy. The amount of money in the system is always growing with no upper bound but at any given time when a transaction is made the amount of money in the system is finite. To use your example, turning paint and canvas into a more valuable product inflates the total value in the system, which in turn decreases the value of everyone else's work. In doing so the amount you gain for yourself is taken from others.

a reply to: Dfairlite

I think it's only as complicated as we make it. Wages capped at lowest earner at 10% for entire compensation package. Want to give CEO stock options? You have to give the lowest paid worker at least 10% of that. Across the board.
Reigns in everybody. Part of me wants to think that it would kill competition, would destroy free markets, etc How could it be worse than what happens today? The income gap is far too big and only getting bigger. I actually benefit from this, but would be more then happy to give some of mine back under a plan like this that closed the huge gap.

originally posted by: Raxusillian
a reply to: Dfairlite

I think it's only as complicated as we make it. Wages capped at lowest earner at 10% for entire compensation package. Want to give CEO stock options? You have to give the lowest paid worker at least 10% of that. Across the board.
Reigns in everybody. Part of me wants to think that it would kill competition, would destroy free markets, etc How could it be worse than what happens today? The income gap is far too big and only getting bigger. I actually benefit from this, but would be more then happy to give some of mine back under a plan like this that closed the huge gap.

The problem is that this doesn't actually solve the majority of our low income problem, at least in the US. Small businesses typically aren't rich and the gap between the owners and the lowest paid doesn't exceed what most people consider to be reasonable ratios. Thus you cause businesses like Walmart to increase worker pay but that only drives employees away from small business in order to work at large business.

Any ratio has to be paired with a sane minimum wage, but if you have a sane wage you probably don't need the ratio in the first place.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Dfairlite
Wage slavery lol. good one. Learn a skill, go to school, work your way up, etc. No slavery here, just those who won't help themselves and those who do help themselves and move out of these jobs.

School and skills do not solve the issue. 51% of those who have graduated college with a Bachelors degree are either unemployed or working unskilled minimum wage jobs right now. You will statistically earn more money with a GED than an Associates degree.

I see your points and agree with much if what you say just to preface.

How many of those degrees are bull # worthless degrees? How many of these kids didn't look at the job markets find something in those markets that they liked and get schooling specific for that? How many of these kids have no relevant experience?
A degree is not the solution to the problem. It's part of it if course, but not the final solution. Anyone can break into almost any industry they want to. There are some of course that it takes nearly an act of god, but there is a ton of opportunity out there.
I hustled and worked my ass off in an industry where most people say a degree is a requirement. I started at the absolute bottom of the food chain. I took short term # contracts with kind of relevant work to my hopeful field. I used to have the worst job interview skills of anyone ever. Now I destroy interviews. If I can get an interview I know I will get the job or walk away with a solid future lead.
The days of degree straight to dream job are over. It takes far more than that now. There are a lot of job markets right now where the average age puts them to retirement in 5-10 years. Find something you love. Find a job that is relevant to that. Do some research. Get a foot in the door anyway possible. Be the first one there and the last one to leave. Ask for extra shifts. If your line of work offers any certifications at all get some. Even if they are only partially relevant.

I feel your pain. I was a husband and father who had to rely on government hand outs to feed my family. I woke up one day and had enough. I wasn't going to settle anymore. Life dealt me a # hand and I was done accepting it.
Don't accept it man. Just from the things I've read that you have posted your are too damn smart/intelligent to stay in the hole you are in.

My life isn't perfect I still # up a lot. Im still digging myself out of a financial hole 12 years in the making, but my life is a whole lot better now.

I'll stop for now this has turned out to be far longer than I had thought it was going to be. I love researching, I love helping people get out or the same type of situation I was in. If anything I said resonated with you pm me. We'll talk and see what we can do together. If not the no worries, but just remember this life is about far more than getting stomped on and getting the # kicked out of you all the time. It doesn't have to be that way.

a reply to: Aazadan

Good point. Really only applies to the corporate world. I think there is a solution somewhere in having a ratio though. There has got to be a cap of some kind. Profit sharing if no ratio?

Sorry you can't save yourself out of the poor house with $50. That's even assuming it's a robot without any social life or "unecessary spending" and just sits at home doing nothing but doing accounting their slave wage.

a reply to: Aazadan

I cannot charge even $15/hour for my labor to do something like build a database, program a website, or write an app because a person in India can live very comfortably while doing it for $3 per hour, to be competitive I have to be able to do in a day what takes them a week which takes a lot more skill than I currently have.

The average web developer salary is over $60k/yr. The average programmer salary is ~$80k/yr. The average software engineer salary is $90k/yr. Even at working 24 hours per day 52 weeks per year, that's at minimum $6.86/hr, and at 40 hours per week that's more than $28/hr. (all data from glass door)

It takes a lot more than you think to earn more than minimum wage

I worked pizza delivery a little more than 10 years ago, making minimum wage plus tips. That worked out to be about $14/hr. It doesn't take much to make more than minimum wage. Then I moved to assistant manager, which was a slight pay cut but had better future prospects. Had I stuck around I would have moved up to store manager within a few years, which payed 45-60k/yr (depending on bonuses). And in no way am I an over achiever. I am a classic underachiever as I've been told by multiple people (family, friends, employers, professors, etc.)

If you want to be technical about it 2% earn exactly the minimum wage but 35% of the country is within 10% of their states minimum wage.

Do you have a link to back that up, because I show the 35th percentile making $30k/yr. More than double minimum wage.

To use your example, turning paint and canvas into a more valuable product inflates the total value in the system, which in turn decreases the value of everyone else's work.

LOL, so profit causes inflation? That's quite the mental gymnastics you've got going on over there.

originally posted by: Dfairlite
The average web developer salary is over $60k/yr. The average programmer salary is ~$80k/yr. The average software engineer salary is $90k/yr. Even at working 24 hours per day 52 weeks per year, that's at minimum $6.86/hr, and at 40 hours per week that's more than $28/hr. (all data from glass door)

Wages are different in different areas of the country. I cannot move, and the labor has no value locally, therefore I can only go online. Those average wages are for in person contracts and are typically from the higher cost of living areas in the country. The same job where I live pays less than 20k/year, if you can get one.

I worked pizza delivery a little more than 10 years ago, making minimum wage plus tips. That worked out to be about $14/hr. It doesn't take much to make more than minimum wage. Then I moved to assistant manager, which was a slight pay cut but had better future prospects. Had I stuck around I would have moved up to store manager within a few years, which payed 45-60k/yr (depending on bonuses). And in no way am I an over achiever. I am a classic underachiever as I've been told by multiple people (family, friends, employers, professors, etc.)

A little more than 10 years ago I worked delivery for a local deli during lunchtime, 4 hours per day 5 days per week. It was minimum wage but it was a tipped position so the wage was really $2.62/hour. My tips were split, 33% went to the owner because she facilitated the workplace and felt she should get them, 25% to the sandwich maker, 25% to the cook, since they made the food, and I could have the rest (17% if you're keeping track). The portion of the tips I was allowed to keep averaged $4 per day. So out of this $14.48 I would make per day I got to pay taxes, and I had to cover my own gas for deliveries, gas at the time was around $4 per gallon and I used about 2.5 gallons per day. So for 4 hours of work I would clear $3.03. After I worked there for a year I quit, once including the car maintenance the job required I actually lost money by working there. We have very difference experiences from working delivery.

Do you have a link to back that up, because I show the 35th percentile making $30k/yr. More than double minimum wage.

www.zerohedge.com...

40% make $10 or less.

www.whatsmypercent.com...
13,409 is the 35% cutoff.

What you are looking at for 30k/year is including joint filers, such as all the households with a 2 person income.

LOL, so profit causes inflation? That's quite the mental gymnastics you've got going on over there.

When you add more value to the system that already has a finite value, that is precisely what happens.

a reply to: Aazadan

Wages are different in different areas of the country. I cannot move, and the labor has no value locally, therefore I can only go online.

Why can't you move? I work for a company that pays right around the average for all of those positions and they pay relocation. I know a number of people who have relocated from back east to here (out west).

What you are looking at for 30k/year is including joint filers, such as all the households with a 2 person income.

That may very well be the case, but you're looking at people's annual income, which includes part time workers. Now maybe you already know this, but the work force is saturated with part time jobs and there is a shortage of full time jobs. Since minimum wage is $7.25 per HOUR, you cannot derive how close to minimum wage people's incomes are if all you have is there yearly wage. Raising minimum wage will only increase the number of part time jobs that are available, but not nearly as much as the ACA did.

When you add more value to the system that already has a finite value, that is precisely what happens.

You're confusing value and currency. Let me explain;

So let's say we have a blacksmith and a landscaper and in this economy there is $100 of currency, each of them has $50 at this point in time. The landscaper buys a pick from the blacksmith for $20. The blacksmith has some landscaping done for $40. At this point the blacksmith has $30 and the landscaper has $70. So now the landscaper buys a few more tools from the blacksmith for $50. The blacksmith has some more landscaping done for $55. Now the blacksmith has $25 and the landscaper has $75.

Ok, we have a finite system of $100, yet we have a value of $165 worth of work done. So either I'm not understanding what you're getting at here, or you're not understanding how the economy works. If it's the former, feel free to explain. If it's the latter, hopefully this was useful.

originally posted by: Dfairlite
Why can't you move? I work for a company that pays right around the average for all of those positions and they pay relocation. I know a number of people who have relocated from back east to here (out west).

To put it simply, I'm unhireable. People like me don't get relocation assistance, and even if I did I have a year of school to finish here, moving increases the cost of tuition by several thousand dollars.

That may very well be the case, but you're looking at people's annual income, which includes part time workers. Now maybe you already know this, but the work force is saturated with part time jobs and there is a shortage of full time jobs. Since minimum wage is $7.25 per HOUR, you cannot derive how close to minimum wage people's incomes are if all you have is there yearly wage. Raising minimum wage will only increase the number of part time jobs that are available, but not nearly as much as the ACA did.

What the work force is saturated with doesn't matter. If there were enough jobs to go around, people could be working two part time jobs. That's not actually the case though, and it's instead closer to 1 30 hour/week job at $8.50/hour. Like it or not, that's the economic climate, and that's what people have to live on. It won't be going away. If anything it will drop further in the next decade.

You're confusing value and currency. Let me explain;

They're the same thing. You can exchange credit in your bank account for cash. The credit on the banks books is perpetually increasing but at any given instant in time it is finite, as is the amount of cash available. If you make your painting and sell it one of two things happens. Either someone with enough credit buys it in which case the exchange is neutral. Or, someone purchases it through a loan from the bank which results in credit being created. This places more credit into the system which increases the money supply. This of course is ignoring the impact on the velocity of money, but you get the idea.

Ok, we have a finite system of $100, yet we have a value of $165 worth of work done. So either I'm not understanding what you're getting at here, or you're not understanding how the economy works. If it's the former, feel free to explain. If it's the latter, hopefully this was useful.

In your example those landscaper tools have drastically reduced value now that they've been purchased. They represent an ongoing expense to care for, and if sold will sell as secondhand goods. Their value is that they can be used as a tool to generate value, but they no longer hold much of any value themselves.

The same is true for the landscaping work done for the blacksmith. The grass, bushes, and trees will regrow and need to be worked on again. Thus the work the landscaper did was only temporary in value. In this scenario the landscaper will eventually end up with all of the wealth as the blacksmith is making permanent items while the landscaper is only making temporary items.