"Worthless"

originally posted by: ketsuko
Ah hell, let's just make the minimum wage $100/hour. Why not? It's a living wage ... No wait, I don't think that's enough. Why should my kids have to live a life less extravagant than Beyoncé's kid? I think minimum wage should be more like $500 or maybe $1,000/hour ...

I mean those corporations are just rich right? Thay can pay me whatever I think I need.

You do realize the median wage in the US today has less purchasing power than the minimum wage of the 50's? Minimum is quite a bit less than even that.

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

Not really, it wouldn't be to hard with the internet . To set up a barter market, where products were just exchanged . Their was a great Sci. Fi book written once, that equated the time spent on the production of an item, to Credits. If say I gave you a pound of spuds, and it was agreed that that pound of spuds took four hours of labour on my part to produce . In my credit book you would sign that four hours as a credit to me. Payable by labour, or another item worth part or whole of the four hours credit. The Credits can be bought or sold etc.

You realize that this is precisely what cash is, right?

originally posted by: Dfairlite
LOL you think every person working is worth $22/hr? Why stop there? Why not $75?

$22/hour is about the same purchasing power today as minimum wage was in 1955 at $1/hour, it's also a bit less in purchasing power than the $1.40 minimum wage was worth in 1967.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: Dfairlite

We all saw what happened to the guy from "Super Size Me".

Living off McDonalds fast food isn't living. It's surviving. It's not OK for someone to be surviving off McDonalds twice a day, every day.

Sure, your math works out but in practice nothing ever goes according to the "plan". There are always unforeseen expenses.

And really -- 1.6 miles of walking to/from work each day, really? That's what we expect the working poor to do? We should all be willing to chip in to our society to make it a better place for everyone.

It would seem you either didn't finish reading the post or you are just ignoring it to spew talking points. I addressed all of your concerns.

originally posted by: Dfairlite
$7.25 works just fine for the basics here is the math:

Let's say I'm unfortunate enough to live in the evil state of Texas working for the evil McDonald corp making the terrible minimum wage:

I make 1208 month (7.25hr/40hr's week, 50wks per year. Gotta have time off!)
I owe zero income taxes
I pay 6.2% FICA leaving me with 1133 per month
I can rent a room for $340 month link
This room is 0.8 miles from my job, so no car needed I can walk. It's only 15 minutes.
Natural gas bill is $20
Electric bill in the summer is $80
Cell phone bill $60 unlimited everything from t-mobile
Big mac meals every meal (except breakfast) 390
A few boxes of cereal and some milk and snacks $50

Alright so far we have:
Food = $440
Shelter = $440
Cell phone = $60

That puts us at $940/month, leaving us with $193 surplus for saving, entertainment, clothes, etc. And this is with a food budget that is 75% of what I spend on a family of 5.

Now let's make a couple adjustments.
Let's go with the $30 straight talk phone plan and instead of big mac meals let's go with dollar menu meals (burger, drink, fries) for $270. And this is still much more than it would cost me to feed myself three meals a day.

Now instead of $193 surplus we have a $343/ month surplus, with that I can now afford the all important health insurance (don't want to be a leech on society using medicaid) which will cost me $180/month according to ehealth, and if I take the government handout from obamacare (AKA a subsidy) I can get it for $22/month.

So let's see, no handouts and still a surplus of $163.
Now, I'm sick of walking so let's buy a car. It's a beater, but it'll do for $1500. I spread that over two years and didn't get a great rate so that's a payment of $67

So now I've got 96 dollars per month for fuel and clothing. I think I'll make it!

Throughout this experiment I tried to think of ways to waste money, like not taking subsidies, eating out more than any rational being does, etc. and yet here I am with a surplus still.

If I missed anything, there is plenty of wiggle room in the budget. (e.g., eat out less, buy a bus pass, save for a car instead of financing, etc)
Moral of the story: is minimum wage comfortable? No, but it's not inhumane or anything. It is a livable wage.

$1208/month is $14496 per year. That is not tax free.
en.wikipedia.org...

You will pay 0% in state tax, but you'll make it up in an 8.05% sales tax
www.tax-rates.org...

You didn't specify where in Texas so lets go with Dallas.
www.dallascad.org...

You'll pay roughly 2.6% in Dallas city taxes (income+property)

You'll pay 10% on the first 9225 of that so 922.50 and then you'll pay 15% on the remaining 5271 for $790.65, and you'll pay 2.6% in city for $376.90. Throw in the 6.2% FICA and you're down another $906. Add this all together and you're paying $2996.05 in taxes.

This leaves $11499.95 for spending (sales tax not yet included).

Next comes rent. You claim $340/month but that's limited by availability. The range on those apartments is $339 to $474, so on average you're going to pay $406.50 and half the people are still going to pay more than that. $406.50 per month is $4878 per year.

Your spending money is now down to $6621.95.

Now you have $160/month in utility bills (electric+gas+phone) which is $1920

Now you have $4701.95

Lets say you can put 10% of your earnings into savings. That's $1449 per year, so you now have $3252.34.

The remainder of this is spending money, and will be subject to the 8.05% sales tax. Subtracting that you have $3010.04.

Reduced to a per day value that's $8.25 per day. That's enough to eat on but there's literally nothing else in the budget. No furniture, no clothing, no computer, no internet, no travel, no entertainment, no ability to invest and better yourself, and no anything else. Also, if you happen to get sick and miss a day or two of work you have no ability to travel to a doctor, and even a single missed day costs you $59.60 out of your spare $247.50 per month. Meaning you lose 25% of your food budget for the month by getting a cold for a single day and that's before accounting for the cost of any medicine to feel better (assuming you can get to a store and buy some in the first place). Throw in medication and you're closer to $80 which is 1/3 of your budget. Miss 2 days and you're eating very little for the rest of the month. Most people get sick a couple times a year.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Dfairlite
LOL you think every person working is worth $22/hr? Why stop there? Why not $75?

$22/hour is about the same purchasing power today as minimum wage was in 1955 at $1/hour, it's also a bit less in purchasing power than the $1.40 minimum wage was worth in 1967.

And why was that? A big part of it was the fact that inflation was kept really low, Eisenhower ran a balanced budget so there was no need for inflation.

And with a minimum wage that high, guess how many people lived in poverty? ~25% in the 50's, and ~20% in the 60's.

originally posted by: Dfairlite
Wage slavery lol. good one. Learn a skill, go to school, work your way up, etc. No slavery here, just those who won't help themselves and those who do help themselves and move out of these jobs.

School and skills do not solve the issue. 51% of those who have graduated college with a Bachelors degree are either unemployed or working unskilled minimum wage jobs right now. You will statistically earn more money with a GED than an Associates degree.

a reply to: Aazadan

You'll pay 10% on the first 9225 of that so 922.50 and then you'll pay 15% on the remaining 5271 for $790.65, and you'll pay 2.6% in city for $376.90. Throw in the 6.2% FICA and you're down another $906. Add this all together and you're paying $2996.05 in taxes.

If you check the IRS website you'll realize you still qualify for standard deductions which brings your total income taxes to ~$450 link and that's with standard deductions, which you'd likely be able to write off more by itemizing. But for the sake of this discussion I'll agree that it's $450. Plus FICA. So taxes of $1356, not $2996.

You'll pay roughly 2.6% in Dallas city taxes (income+property)

Property taxes only apply when you own property, you don't pay them when you're renting. I don't see anything about income taxes in your link. But that's likely because you threw the word income in there hoping I'd just accept more taxes.

Next comes rent. You claim $340/month but that's limited by availability. The range on those apartments is $339 to $474, so on average you're going to pay $406.50 and half the people are still going to pay more than that. $406.50 per month is $4878 per year.

Those are full on apartments too, you can rent a room or split with a room mate for cheaper than that.

The remainder of this is spending money, and will be subject to the 8.05% sales tax. Subtracting that you have $3010.04.

Sales tax is included in all of my figures.

Also, if you happen to get sick and miss a day or two of work you have no ability to travel to a doctor, and even a single missed day costs you $59.60 out of your spare $247.50 per month. if you happen to get sick and miss a day or two of work you have no ability to travel to a doctor, and even a single missed day costs you $59.60 out of your spare $247.50 per month. Meaning you lose 25% of your food budget for the month by getting a cold for a single day and that's before accounting for the cost of any medicine to feel better (assuming you can get to a store and buy some in the first place). Throw in medication and you're closer to $80 which is 1/3 of your budget. Miss 2 days and you're eating very little for the rest of the month. Most people get sick a couple times a year.

You missed the part where my budget is based on 50 weeks per year instead of 52, which gives you 2 weeks of vacation time and sick days.

And again, the moral: Is minimum wage comfortable? No. Is it livable? Yes.

originally posted by: Dfairlite
Property taxes only apply when you own property, you don't when you're renting. I don't see anything about income taxes in your link. But that's likely because you threw the word income in there hoping I'd just accept more taxes.

Renters pay property tax. Do you think the land owner pays it out of their own pocket? The cost gets passed on to the person living there.

www.dallascad.org...

That's where I grabbed the numbers from.

Those are full on apartments too, you can rent a room or split with a room mate for cheaper than that.

Needing a roommate is not being self sufficient. An economic situation that requires a dual home income leads to people shacking up together for financial benefits.

originally posted by: Dfairlite
And again, the moral: Is minimum wage comfortable? No. Is it livable? Yes.

Here's the problem. Minimum wage is the only wage. As time goes on all wages are trending down to the minimum. It's also the exact opposite of what the minimum wage is supposed to be for. As was pointed out earlier purchasing power with the minimum wage used to be higher than our current median wage.

In 1955 one could pay for college out of pocket, own a car, own a home, eat very well, have medical coverage, and put some money into savings all simultaneously on a minimum wage income. Today you can't even do one of those things, and your budget shows that as you're advocating eating dollar menu McDonalds, living in 1 room in an apartment, and walking everywhere.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Dfairlite
Wage slavery lol. good one. Learn a skill, go to school, work your way up, etc. No slavery here, just those who won't help themselves and those who do help themselves and move out of these jobs.

School and skills do not solve the issue. 51% of those who have graduated college with a Bachelors degree are either unemployed or working unskilled minimum wage jobs right now. You will statistically earn more money with a GED than an Associates degree.

I'm not sure where you get your information, but you should find a new source.

Incomes by education level: link link link

As for the unemployment rate of college graduates:

Unemployment and underemployment rates among young graduates are improving but remain substantially higher than before the recession began. For young college graduates, the unemployment rate is currently 8.5 percent (compared with 5.5 percent in 2007), and the underemployment rate is 16.8 percent (compared with 9.6 percent in 2007). For young high school graduates, the unemployment rate is 22.9 percent (compared with 15.9 percent in 2007), and the underemployment rate is 41.5 percent (compared with 26.8 percent in 2007).

link

So it seems (quite unsurprisingly) that skills and education do solve the problem.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Dfairlite
Property taxes only apply when you own property, you don't when you're renting. I don't see anything about income taxes in your link. But that's likely because you threw the word income in there hoping I'd just accept more taxes.

Renters pay property tax. Do you think the land owner pays it out of their own pocket? The cost gets passed on to the person living there.

www.dallascad.org...

That's where I grabbed the numbers from.

Those are full on apartments too, you can rent a room or split with a room mate for cheaper than that.

Needing a roommate is not being self sufficient. An economic situation that requires a dual home income leads to people shacking up together for financial benefits.

Yes, the cost gets passed on but it is included in the rent price, ergo no more expenses, sorry.

I love the irony that you can see that landlords would pass on property taxes but fail to see that business owners pass on wage increases.

Lol, now sharing an apartment isn't self sufficient. The leaps you will go to. Does your brain feel like a pretzel yet?

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Dfairlite
And again, the moral: Is minimum wage comfortable? No. Is it livable? Yes.

Here's the problem. Minimum wage is the only wage. As time goes on all wages are trending down to the minimum. It's also the exact opposite of what the minimum wage is supposed to be for. As was pointed out earlier purchasing power with the minimum wage used to be higher than our current median wage.

In 1955 one could pay for college out of pocket, own a car, own a home, eat very well, have medical coverage, and put some money into savings all simultaneously on a minimum wage income. Today you can't even do one of those things, and your budget shows that as you're advocating eating dollar menu McDonalds, living in 1 room in an apartment, and walking everywhere.

In the 1950's 1 out of 4 people was living in poverty. What an ideal time to live in! And today I own 2 cars, will own my home in a few years, eat well, have medical coverage and put money into savings! Oh and I'm putting my wife through college with cash! and no, I'm not rich. I'm middle class, not even upper middle class. Now, that's going to change, I will be rich in about 5 years, because I've planned it out and will achieve that goal.

Budgeting is 90% controlling emotion, 10% math. Anyone who masters their emotional discipline will get rich if they so choose.

a reply to: Aazadan

Here's the problem. Minimum wage is the only wage. As time goes on all wages are trending down to the minimum.

So why do we have fewer people working for minimum wage today, than we did in the 50's?

originally posted by: Dfairlite
I'm not sure where you get your information, but you should find a new source.

Incomes by education level: link link link

51% of graduates are in non degree requiring jobs
www.careerbuilder.com...

25% unemployed among recent grads, 44% in non degree jobs
www.slate.com...

Recent college grads are triple the national unemployment rate. 58% earn the mean wage or better, vs 80% 25 years ago.
www.newsweek.com...
As for the unemployment rate of college graduates:

36% "mal-employment" rate, taking such jobs will negatively impact your earnings for decades, despite the education
money.cnn.com...

That's for a bachelors.

Here, start playing with this, it's pulling data from BLS.
www.whatsmypercent.com...

You're more likely to make $30,000 as a high school graduate than with an Associates. The same is true at $40,000.

originally posted by: Dfairlite
So why do we have fewer people working for minimum wage today, than we did in the 50's?

Because the minimum wage has gone down in value. There are far more working today with less purchasing power than the 1950's minimum wage. Nearly 40% of the country has less purchasing power than a person working as a McDonalds burger flipper in 1955.

a reply to: Aazadan

51% of graduates are in non degree requiring jobs

That doesn't mean minimum wage jobs.

25% unemployed among recent grads, 44% in non degree jobs

This is better than your other link where 51% were in non-degree jobs

Recent college grads are triple the national unemployment rate. 58% earn the mean wage or better, vs 80% 25 years ago.

Are you surprised? I mean there are far more people with degrees and almost infinitely more people with useless degrees when compared with 25 years ago.

None of this changes the fact that as a whole, people who have an education or a skill make more money and have a better employment rate than those who don't.

You're more likely to make $30,000 as a high school graduate than with an Associates. The same is true at $40,000.

You're more likely to get a minor injury in a car crash while wearing a seat-belt, too.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Dfairlite
So why do we have fewer people working for minimum wage today, than we did in the 50's?

Because the minimum wage has gone down in value. There are far more working today with less purchasing power than the 1950's minimum wage. Nearly 40% of the country has less purchasing power than a person working as a McDonalds burger flipper in 1955.

So wages aren't trending toward the minimum then. Inflation is killing wages is what you're saying. I whole heartedly agree. And what causes inflation? Government spending money it doesn't have!

originally posted by: Dfairlite
I love the irony that you can see that landlords would pass on property taxes but fail to see that business owners pass on wage increases.

The additional cost of wage increases isn't a 1:1 correlation with higher pay. Labor costs are typically 33% of a businesses expenses, a 10% increase in wages results in a 10% increase on that 33% or 3.33% increase in the cost of the product. Now people are earning 10% more but only paying 3.33% more. Your assertion would only be true if a 10% increase in the cost of labor resulted in a 10% or greater increase in the cost of goods. This doesn't happen however because labor is not the only factor in determining the price of something.

originally posted by: Dfairlite
Budgeting is 90% controlling emotion, 10% math. Anyone who masters their emotional discipline will get rich if they so choose.

Not true. I will probably never earn more than minimum wage in my life. The job market can not support it, every day my job prospects get worse, and even if I were to beat the odds and gain even a middle class wage, all that means is that someone else ends up in my place and doesn't. Lets use a small example and look at it from a macro perspective. If there are 10 good jobs and 100 people to fill them, 10 people get a good job and 90 don't. One of those 90 can work really hard and get one of those 10, but that simply displaces one of the original 10 and it's still a 10/90 split. This is what the economy is like right now, except instead of 10 good jobs over time we're trending downwards to 9, then 8, then 7, and so on.

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: Thecakeisalie

We should all be in the streets, not rioting but just there, in our squares. Our real economic power would show if we did it, I mean really did it. Everyone making under 22/hr (USD), which is what the minimum wage should be, should be out on the streets en masse for 2 days, all over the world. The entire world economy depends on us and we are pooped on.

"occupy" tried that...it was infiltrated, had less minutes in media coverage than the taking down of the confederate flag, police used city vagrancy laws to arrest hundreds......when you have a few tight-ass corporations raising wages beyond the federal minimum for their own workers, as opposed to our own congress not raising the federal minimum wage for all workers????....something is wrong.