Confederate flags filmed being stolen, destroyed in new social media challenge

a reply to: rnaa

I suggest you read this. Im afraid At the time of them succeeding it WAS LEGAL. Also succession was not dictated to the Federal government SO that was a power left to the states.

Was sucession Illegal? NOPE read this.

Secession --- seceding --- secede...........Not succession --- succeeding --- succeed

I don't mean to be a spelling Nazi. I probably make my share of spelling mistakes, but this is one that really annoys me.

originally posted by: queenofswords
Secession --- seceding --- secede...........Not succession --- succeeding --- succeed

I don't mean to be a spelling Nazi. I probably make my share of spelling mistakes, but this is one that really annoys me.

If that were true you would not had posted this reply right? Stay on topic please.

a reply to: yuppa

I suggest you read this.

Fine. So I read the discussion and this is the most on topic part that I found...

Texas v. White, 1869, explicitly addressed this issue. The US Supreme Court ruled that the Texas secession of 1861 was unconstitutional, and had never been valid. The ruling was based on the US Constitution (not on any amendments ratified after 1861). According to the ruling, secession was illegal both at the time of the ruling (1869) and at the time Texas attempted to secede (1861), and in fact at any time after Texas joined the union in 1845.

So what was Texas v. White about? Here is the introduction from Wikipedia: Texas v. White

Texas v. White, 74 U.S. 700 (1869) was a significant case argued before the United States Supreme Court in 1869. The case involved a claim by the Reconstruction government of Texas that United States bonds owned by Texas since 1850 had been illegally sold by the Confederate state legislature during the American Civil War. The state filed suit directly with the United States Supreme Court, which, under the United States Constitution, retains original jurisdiction on certain cases in which a state is a party.

In accepting original jurisdiction, the court ruled that, legally speaking, Texas had remained a United States state ever since it first joined the Union, despite its joining the Confederate States of America and its being under military rule at the time of the decision in the case. In deciding the merits of the bond issue, the court further held that the Constitution did not permit states to unilaterally secede from the United States, and that the ordinances of secession, and all the acts of the legislatures within seceding states intended to give effect to such ordinances, were "absolutely null".

The 10th Amendment argument is trivially absurd. The claim that the 'power to secede' is not given to the United States and is therefor reserved to the states is a non-sequitur. Suppose, for argument sake, that power had been given to the United States. In what way does the phrase "the United States has the power to secede" express a meaningful message? Secede from what? How does an umbrella organization 'secede' from its membership? Wouldn't 'kick out a State' be more apt than secede?

Furthermore, Article 1 Section 10 removes the entire concept of secession from the realm of 'powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution' when it states unequivocally that :

No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation...

The act of joining the United States is a voluntary one, and once you join, that is it, decision made. The United States is now responsible for your foreign affairs, and you cannot join in any other confederation outside of that jurisdiction.

a reply to: rnaa

YEs you forgot something if a State went it alone there was a loop hole since it was not joining anything. it was seperating itself.

a reply to: XTexan

I didn't think the recent hysteria over the Confederate flag could get any more ridiculous. If the Confederate flag has to be banned because of an association with slavery, shouldn't we ban the American flag too? Four union states practiced slavery until the end of the Civil War too, after all.

originally posted by: SubTruth
Imagine gay pride flags being ripped down across the country......Progressives would be crying a river of tolerance tears.

I don't think the 'rainbow flag' could ever be construed as oppressive or having connotations of the subjugation of minority groups, no matter how 'skewed right' one's interpretation of its meaning gets...

I've been lurking around ATS for about a year now without an account, I reckon it's time to make my first post:

I realize that this is not a thread for general opinions on the southern flag, but I must say I am tired of yankees or people hailing from other parts of the United States trying to tell me what the flag represents. No matter how many times you explain to me that this piece of cloth represents slavery or bigotry it will still not represent that to me, my family, nor anybody else in the south. It represents the south to me as a region and as a culture. Every country in the world has regional flags that were often flown in wars against that region's own people, from Bavaria to Scotland. We southerners are our own culture and our own people and we have the right to use symbolism to express our uniqueness and will to exist. Whether or not people misuse it (as people often misuse the stars and stripes as well) does not matter one iota to me.

That said this is not something that people should be killing over. I respect the principle to defend one's property but posessing this right (something most of the western world does not have) requires good judgement and responsibility on the part of the people. Ending somebody's life over a flag, regardless of how mind-blowingly stupid they are being, is wrong, but that is just my two cents. That said, I won't be losing any sleep if somebody gets shot doing this, it'd just be Darwin at work.

a reply to: atomadelica

yes you DO have the right...hang the flag all you want nobody is stopping your property from being the Confederate Flag mecca are they? If they do...if they go burning your flags on you property...call the cops

As for the rest of your post, which is totally fine and might I add quite calm and rational,; I have but one request

Always make sure that you know that your second paragraph is ONLY your opinion and not fact. Because you say you're sick of us Yankees telling you what it means to them and that's cool...but you also shouldn't expect to force them to believe what you think it is. Just because said Northerner did not live in SC (or South in general) does not invalidate their opinion

But I don't think that's what you tried to express....you posted calm and clear...I just get weary at times because I know that the same rational discussion you offer gets immediately turned into "your opinion cannot be right! Mine always is!"

a reply to: KyoZero

I do not think that northerners' opinions are invalid, if not being from a region or country meant that you are not allowed to posess anything resembling an opinion about it, the entire world would just stand by as genocides, wars, and atrocities happen -- which is not something anybody wants.

I just think that the yankee perspective on the flag has been distorted by stereotypes and the media. For one thing, nobody really even cared about the flag outside of the occasional snide "it helps me identify the idiots" remark before the Charleston shootings, this "outrage" only began once the media seemingly decided out of thin air that we are now having a "national debate" about it despite the fact that racism and a very sick man were responsible for this awful event, not a piece of cloth. People only seem to be angry or opinionated about it because they are being told to, and that is worrying.

Second, northerners and foreigners did not grow up with this flag, they are not used to seeing it being used in the way in which is intended, which is to express southern identity. I am aware of the disgusting ways in which the flag is used in other parts of the US and in other countries, which is, yes, usually to express a racist ideology. One of the most disgusting things I have seen is neo-Nazis in Germany and other European countries in which Nazi and white power symbols are banned using the southern flag instead, which absolutely sickens me. But this is not usually how it used in the south, outside a rotten minority of racist southern nationalists. However, racist nationalists in every country or region abuse that area's flag in that way, even the stars and stripes is often brought out in such circumstances. Most people that fly the flag in the south are friendly, nice people with not an ounce of hate in their bones.

It is all a matter of perspective, and for those outside of the south approaching this issue I think their perspective is obscured by media sensationalism and what I would even dare to call outright bigotry (it is not okay to demonize and attack other cultures, and some things I have seen being said about southerners, not even the flag, in the past few months have just been disgusting).

a reply to: atomadelica

If anyone thinks Southerners get a fair shake consider this:
Why is it ok to call people "inbred, toothless, backwoods, rednecks and traitors"?
That regularly flies many places and if you're not Southern don't stop to consider just how ridiculously insulting much of the language is.
OTO we Southerners are used to it and quietly bear the debasement most of the time.
Southerners were that way before the Civil War too, people need to stop and consider just what it would take to be pushed in to voluntarily leaving the Union.
It was a measure of last resort when all else had failed.

Nice pic of the Blue ridge in your avatar.
Reminds me of the view from my shop window in Amherst..

originally posted by: Menocchio
I didn't think the recent hysteria over the Confederate flag could get any more ridiculous. If the Confederate flag has to be banned because of an association with slavery

For the millionth time, the Confederate flag is not being "banned". You are not prevented from buying one, you are not prevented from owning one, you are not prevented from flying one, you are not prevented from worshiping one...

The Confederate flag is NOT BANNED.

originally posted by: Menocchio
shouldn't we ban the American flag too? Four union states practiced slavery until the end of the Civil War too, after all.

The difference being that this is about the perception people have of the symbol, and the intent of many of those flying it. When you have people deliberately using the American flag to offend and attack a racial group, then you can start a discussion about how it represents the ignorance and hatred of those people and how inappropriate it would be for a group of elected officials (whose job it is to represent ALL of their electorate without bias, ignorance and bigotries) to be associated with it.

a reply to: atomadelica

Thanks for the thoughtful response...I have officially taken my hat off to you and have things to think about now

a reply to: Krazysh0t

In the words of Bill Engvall: Here's your sign!! Smh. It's a flag, bozos. How hard can it be to capture?? Duh 😕

a reply to: Kromlech

Um, it ISN'T?!