Planned Parenthood Sells Dead Baby Parts

originally posted by: toolgal462
But once again, it comes down to what one believes 'a life' is. If someone feels so strongly that life begins at conception then I suppose I can at least understand why they are so opposed to abortion. In that person's eyes, it's state sanctioned murder.

I don't buy that. I believe "life" (not personhood) begins at conception. I am opposed to abortion. Knowing there was a life inside me (by MY view) was all I needed to know. That life was precious and I would have done anything possible to save it.

But MY beliefs apply to ME. I control MY life. Not everyone else's. And no one else should control MY life and health, they should control their own. As you said, if someone is opposed to abortion, they shouldn't have one.

There is simply no way to resolve the bitter differences between the opposing sides it seems.

Yes there is. They need to mind their own health, and leave me to mind mine. They can disapprove all they want, but when it comes to what is in MY body, they just need to turn away and respect that it's MY decision. The same people who use "It's state-sanctioned murder!" to exert control over others, are the ones who crap a brick when the government tries to tell them how to raise their children, what to feed them for lunch, what belief system to teach them, how to take care of their health, etc. They are hypocrites to the extreme.

Surely, if the government makes the decision on whether or not a child comes into this world, they should also make the decisions on how that child is raised, fed, taught and cared for... But NO! At the point it's born, the religious right INSIST that the government is completely "hands off" when it comes to their personal choice as to how to raise their kids (which I agree with). Truth is, they're only for "personal responsibility" when it comes to THEIR choices. They don't extend that privilege to people who choose differently from them.

People see this issue as if there are two valid opposing sides. Truth is, there is the woman, and the hoard of asshats who want to control her. They think they have a say. If you have breast cancer and want to make the choice whether to ignore it, have a lumpectomy, or have a simple or radical mastectomy, chemo or radiation, there is no "opposing side" that comes in and says what's right for you. That is YOUR choice. There should be no "movement" to legally make you keep your breasts as long as possible because you may need them to feed a baby someday...

It's simply NONE of their business, but they have made it so. And even people like you, who are pro-choice (if reluctantly) buy the idea of "two sides to this issue". They have convinced you that their position is valid. It is not.

originally posted by: Gryphon66


If we left all "moral dilemmas" merely to stand as they are, what sort of society would we have? The only way to resolve this issue (and like so many social justice warfare items, we have to find a way to resolve it) is to concentrate on the facts, own our emotions, but realize that there is no easy, universal answer, and that the only equitable law that can be made is that before viability, the woman's body is HER OWN, and the decision must be HER CHOICE, because ONLY SHE is going to have to live with it.

So many want to make it into a public issue; it is not. It is a PRIVATE issue and every woman must be able to make her own choice.

I so agree with you. HER OWN body and HER CHOICE.


Many times on threads like this the 'anti's' come out with it may be her body,

but the foetus is not! As a female is born with all the eggs she will ever

have ... surely this fact lends credence to allowing HER, to make HER decisions?

A baby girl is born with all the eggs she will ever have. During childhood a girls
ovaries absorb almost half of the 1,000,000 immature eggs with which she was
born. (No more develop after birth) Of the 400,000 eggs present during her
first menstrual cycle only 300 to 500 of them will develop into mature eggs
across her reproductive life span.
www.

a reply to: eletheia

The problem here is ... who is going to make the decision?

Those who call themselves pro-choice are generally not "in favor" of abortion. Who in the world would be of such a ... horrifying procedure?

We are in favor of as much individual freedom as possible, as opposed to the way the anti-choice folks try to display us. I have not ever met a singled pro-choice person who is not firmly against the procedure after week 20 or so ... at or near viability. Even to save the life of the mother, after that point, the decision is truly "trading one life for another." How soul-crushing to have to make such a choice!

Notice their train of logic though. Generally, in the discussion, you get to the root of the belief: If a woman is pregnant it is "her fault." Fault implies something wrong has been done. Pregnancy is the result of sexual intercourse. "Well, she should have (gotta love this crudeness) kept her legs together" and what follows that gem, usually "and now she has to pay for her choices."

Bringing a child into the world is "punishment" for the woman's sexual choices. What a lucky kid, huh? *barf*

Of course, they sublimate that desire to control a woman's body as well as her freedom of choice into "but what about the baby???"

Now, let's be real. There is a point at which abortion becomes an utterly terrible thing. No one WANTS an abortion.

But as I an many other folks who are pro-choice ask ... if the anti-choice folks are so focused on the "life" of the fetus, why do they, almost to a person, also hold the philosophy that "people's kids aren't for us to take care of ... I don't want to give my money to keep somebody else up."

This fact cuts to the heart of the matter ... they don't give a damn about "the fetus" they want to control what all those "dirty females" do with their bodies.

If Life were "sacred" it would be sacred to them in all circumstances, PARTICULARLY when children are actually born and equipped with fully functioning nervous systems, and personalities, and can understand that people want them and feel pain when they don't.

I'm speaking generically. I have seen some "anti-choice" folks that do care about life, that work to help new mothers and their children, work with foster homes, work against the death penalty, and against more wars.

... but they, at least in my experience, are in the harshest minority possible.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: eletheia

The problem here is ... who is going to make the decision?

It isn't a quick fix its an 18 year commitment ... HER body = HER choice

Those who call themselves pro-choice are generally not "in favor" of abortion. Who in the world would be of such a ... horrifying procedure?

We are in favor of as much individual freedom as possible, as opposed to the way the anti-choice folks try to display us. I have not ever met a singled pro-choice person who is not firmly against the procedure after week 20 or so ... at or near viability. Even to save the life of the mother, after that point, the decision is truly "trading one life for another." How soul-crushing to have to make such a choice!

*Pro-choice* = they have the freedom to choose so its THEIRS.

Having said that personally I think 12/16 weeks is long enough as a pregnancy

can be accurately confirmed in most cases before a missed period.

Notice their train of logic though. Generally, in the discussion, you get to the root of the belief: If a woman is pregnant it is "her fault." Fault implies something wrong has been done. Pregnancy is the result of sexual intercourse. "Well, she should have (gotta love this crudeness) kept her legs together" and what follows that gem, usually "and now she has to pay for her choices."

Bringing a child into the world is "punishment" for the woman's sexual choices. What a lucky kid, huh? *barf*

LOL!! .... *The whipping boy syndrome*

The woman is always to blame ... been there, done that, got the T.shirt.

Of course, they sublimate that desire to control a woman's body as well as her freedom of choice into "but what about the baby???"

Now, let's be real. There is a point at which abortion becomes an utterly terrible thing. No one WANTS an abortion.

That's life ... nobody ever said it would be easy, sometimes, it comes to the time

when you just have to put your *big girl panties* on bite the bullet and do it!!

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

You keep saying the government does not have the right to choose whether or not a baby is born...

But the government is not forcing anyone to have sex...

originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

You keep saying the government does not have the right to choose whether or not a baby is born...

But the government is not forcing anyone to have sex...

Does the government have the right to force anyone to NOT have sex?

a reply to: kaylaluv

Yes, if that person is below the age of consent for their state of residence. Is that relevant?

My point was, the consenting and liable adults who participate in sexual intercourse are the only people who decide whether or not a baby is born.

originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist
a reply to: kaylaluv

Yes, if that person is below the age of consent for their state of residence. Is that relevant?

My point was, the consenting and liable adults who participate in sexual intercourse are the only people who decide whether or not a baby is born.

Birth control measures never fail in the world you live in?

So ... you want the State to be in control? Dictating ... what? When people have sex?

Or just in control of women's bodies.

Or is the point of what you're saying only to imply that abortion is used primarily as birth control?

Or ... what really? What's your solution, abstinence? Sterilization?

originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist
You keep saying the government does not have the right to choose whether or not a baby is born...

But the government is not forcing anyone to have sex...

The individual is free to choose in both case. NEITHER is the government's business.

To be honest, I'm not really sure of your point. Underage people shouldn't be having sex, but they do. And they and their parents are responsible for choosing how to deal with the consequences. Where does the government come into this?

You say:

My point was, the consenting and liable adults who participate in sexual intercourse are the only people who decide whether or not a baby is born.

I'm not sure where you're going with this or what you disagree with.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

I think what is meant is that if you don't want a baby, don't have sex.....
but well, I wonder how many of them would change their minds once they are married and don't want to grow their family any larger or a doctor informed them that having another could prove dangerous.

or how many married women are still having sex, just to keep some resemblance of peace in their house!

originally posted by: dawnstar
I think what is meant is that if you don't want a baby, don't have sex.....

Thank you. Sometimes I feel really stupid when I can't figure out someone's point. Seems to happen to me a lot. Maybe because I didn't attend high school... I don't know...

a reply to: OpenMindedRealist

Anyway, if that's the case, I would ask OpenMindedRealist, do you only have sex when you want to make a baby?

originally posted by: dawnstar
I wonder how many of them would change their minds once they are married and don't want to grow their family any larger or a doctor informed them that having another could prove dangerous.

Yeah, I don't think the government should have ANY say on when we have sex or with whom or how, as long as the participants are consenting adults.

Get these statistics:

1. Only 2% of women age 15-44 have abortions each year. The way the "pro-life" crowd goes after abortions, you'd think it was more like 75%!

2. 93.6% of abortions are performed on women OVER 18.

3. 54% of abortions are by women who used a contraceptive. Yes, people. Contraceptives fail ALL THE TIME.

4. The number of yearly abortions per 1000 women has been cut by more than half since 1981. I would attribute this to better education and easier access to contraception.

CDC Abortion Statistics

a reply to: Gryphon66

Uhh, no. None of your hysterics describe my position.

All I want is for people to accept responsibility for their own actions. Before organizations like Planned Parenthood, people accepted the fact that sex carries a significant risk of pregnancy. That fact of life has not changed. I don't understand why a growing number of people think that sex no longer has consequence, simply because medical science can now kill an unborn child with little risk to the mother.

Our split in opinion occurs where people like you insist that no abortion is taken lightly. That's plainly untrue, and when you attempt to belittle and dismiss people for their valid concerns, you do not help your cause.

You ask for a solution...my answer is to stop telling people it's ok to kill their mistakes, and instead make the most of them.

a reply to: OpenMindedRealist

Yes, your posts are always reasonable and any disagreement is hysterical.

Wow, that's a tired old argument.

Abortion is accepting responsibility not only for past choices but for future outcomes.

Before Planned Parenthood ... so before 1916? Gotcha.

So, you favor going back to the standards of 1916 and prior? That explains a lot.

You are dismissing and belittling people for their valid concerns.

Physician heal thyself.

You're talking out of your ... one-sided and notably antique opinion. You don't know how many people "take abortion lightly." So you can't say whether my statement is "plainly untrue" or not.

Given your penchant for the joys of the Victorian Age ... I'm sure you do think that the solution is to abstain and or sterilize.

Filthy people having sex and all! But at all costs, it's the woman's fault, isn't it? /eyeroll

"Kill their mistakes", eh? So, your solution is that people should bring children into this world as penance?

They and their children have to pay for the rest of their lives for what you see as a mistake?

Talk about a totalitarian view.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
Anyway, if that's the case, I would ask OpenMindedRealist, do you only have sex when you want to make a baby?

Used to be, one of the signs of a real man was owning up to his mistakes and doing the right thing by a mother and child. I've always told myself that's the course I would take, but have been fortunate enough to be spared such a choice. Little bit of luck involved, yes.

originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
Anyway, if that's the case, I would ask OpenMindedRealist, do you only have sex when you want to make a baby?

Used to be, one of the signs of a real man was owning up to his mistakes and doing the right thing by a mother and child. I've always told myself that's the course I would take, but have been fortunate enough to be spared such a choice. Little bit of luck involved, yes.

I don't know if you noticed this or not, but people don't act exclusively through unwritten social contracts in our heads. What you say may have been the case, but that doesn't mean we should legislate accordingly, since many just don't care about those unwritten social contracts.

I want to punch that liberal bitch drinking wine talking like that. I seriously understand how people would see bombing that lady as proper recourse. Though I'd never do that I get it.

a reply to: OpenMindedRealist

and even way back then, there were those who didn't own up!! my grandma raised her son by herself. his father, by what I understand, lived not more than a mile away, and he never even knew it.
and they were married!!!

originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist
Used to be, one of the signs of a real man was owning up to his mistakes and doing the right thing by a mother and child.

What does a "man owning up to his mistakes" have to do with a woman choosing to have an abortion?

Women accept responsibility when they get pregnant. Period. They have no choice in that. How they deal with it IS their responsibility. If they choose an abortion, that is how they responsibly handle the consequences of an unwanted pregnancy.

a reply to: OpenMindedRealist

All I want is for people to accept responsibility for their own actions.

......According your version of responsibility. Abortion is version of personal responsibility, even if you disagree.

Before organizations like Planned Parenthood, people accepted the fact that sex carries a significant risk of pregnancy.

I don't know what you mean by "before organizations like Planned Parenthood". You can't be so naive to believe that abortion were never performed before organizations like Planned Parenthood. You do know that birth control didn't start with Planned Parenthood.

I don't understand why a growing number of people think that sex no longer has consequence, simply because medical science can now kill an unborn child with little risk to the mother.

Contraception! Birth control allows people to enjoy sex without the fear of pregnancy. If contraception fails, which it has been known to do, then the responsible thing for many women to do is to turn to termination methods.

Our split in opinion occurs where people like you insist that no abortion is taken lightly.

I believe that to be more likely than not.

That's plainly untrue, and when you attempt to belittle and dismiss people for their valid concerns, you do not help your cause.

That's your problem with abortion? You're bent out of shape because you think women don't take abortion seriously enough! What is it about you that makes you want to make sure that these women feel the emotions that you think they should?

You ask for a solution...my answer is to stop telling people it's ok to kill their mistakes, and instead make the most of them.

So, you want people to know that abortion isn't okay. Do you want abortion to be illegal?

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist
Used to be, one of the signs of a real man was owning up to his mistakes and doing the right thing by a mother and child.

What does a "man owning up to his mistakes" have to do with a woman choosing to have an abortion?

Women accept responsibility when they get pregnant. Period. They have no choice in that. How they deal with it IS their responsibility. If they choose an abortion, that is how they responsibly handle the consequences of an unwanted pregnancy.

Or their parents (if they are underage) rip the child away from them and hand it off to strangers. Or, if of age, pass this living being off to someone else and hope for the best.

I personally could not release my LIVING child into someone else's care. For me that is far worse.

To go full term with a pregnancy, because of some God belief or guilt of ending it ---- then pass it on? Now you have a LIVING child at the mercy of your decision and "Potluck" parents.