China's Empty Cities

originally posted by: notmyrealname
a reply to: mapsurfer_
Actually, the Chinese government may not be as foolish as you make out. People make fun of their decisions and do not understand what they are doing however, how do you think that they are going to support their economy when the West are just struggling to feed themselves (and buying less good from China)? Maybe the Chinese will bring their populations from the villages and provide them with jobs to feed their own economy….

From what I understand, that is precisely what the Chinese government intends to do. They're phasing out rural life and pushing everyone into the Chinese concept of the "modern world." And their military has the manpower and arms to make those villagers do it whether they like or not.

a reply to: Kojiro

Sounds like Agenda 21 at work in China! And if they can get rid of those pesky villagers, they can use the land.

originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: mapsurfer_


SnF Just because I give most threads I comment on a star in flag .

I would really like to see someone do a thread on this that can explain it more in debt . From a layman's point I can understand what's going on and have understood for a while. China has not just been building go cities in their country they've done it in Africa and other places .

Robust lending leads to good economy from what I understand . Again as a laymen in international finance. It appears to me that China Borrowing money to build infrastructure. They knew these buildings would not be used and that the Communist Party did not look ahead far enough to see that this system or eventually crash.

I've seen many businesses rise and fall. There's a statement you use for deceptive practices like that . "You can live great on credit for 20 years then the house of cards Falls ". I've seen builders, real estate agents and restaurants subscribing to that policy regularly . But the end result is always the same .

Now I admit my lack of understanding in international finance. So I will ask somebody that knows. Does that policy apply internationally also ?

As you have mentioned finance with regards to international developments, please note that the companies that are doing the developments are getting favorable terms because they are not just pledging fiat currency to complete their projects. Countries in Africa generally offer concessions to gain the favor of Chinese companies building whatever infrastructure/housing that they desire on the cheap. This is a difference in asian lending and development and Western. The CHinese government gain concessions (i.e.. mineral rights, land agriculture etc.) and promote Chinese cheap labor to build (Yes the quality is cheap too). What the results hold is Chinese companies holding rare earth mineral rights for most of the planet and US companies holding bombs and electronics that rely upon the rare earth minerals.

Of course, this is a single example of a single issue however the pattern follows through other industries.

originally posted by: notmyrealname

originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: mapsurfer_


SnF Just because I give most threads I comment on a star in flag .

I would really like to see someone do a thread on this that can explain it more in debt . From a layman's point I can understand what's going on and have understood for a while. China has not just been building go cities in their country they've done it in Africa and other places .

Robust lending leads to good economy from what I understand . Again as a laymen in international finance. It appears to me that China Borrowing money to build infrastructure. They knew these buildings would not be used and that the Communist Party did not look ahead far enough to see that this system or eventually crash.

I've seen many businesses rise and fall. There's a statement you use for deceptive practices like that . "You can live great on credit for 20 years then the house of cards Falls ". I've seen builders, real estate agents and restaurants subscribing to that policy regularly . But the end result is always the same .

Now I admit my lack of understanding in international finance. So I will ask somebody that knows. Does that policy apply internationally also ?

As you have mentioned finance with regards to international developments, please note that the companies that are doing the developments are getting favorable terms because they are not just pledging fiat currency to complete their projects. Countries in Africa generally offer concessions to gain the favor of Chinese companies building whatever infrastructure/housing that they desire on the cheap. This is a difference in asian lending and development and Western. The CHinese government gain concessions (i.e.. mineral rights, land agriculture etc.) and promote Chinese cheap labor to build (Yes the quality is cheap too). What the results hold is Chinese companies holding rare earth mineral rights for most of the planet and US companies holding bombs and electronics that rely upon the rare earth minerals.

Of course, this is a single example of a single issue however the pattern follows through other industries.

I can understand partially what you're saying. I just don't see the opposite comparisons in this situation yet . When the US housing bubble burst it affected the entire world .


People seem to think that when the Chinese housing bubble burst it won't bother anyone. To me this makes absolutely no sense ?


Again I know my response is rather simple. Could you dumb it down a little for me so I can catch the concept of what you're saying ?

Seems they forgot the part of the equation that if you are to have a consumer culture, you have to have consumers. And to have consumers you have to pay people a decent wage. If that's not it, what am I missing. Just freaking strange all around.

a reply to: Kojiro
Again, it is easy to jump to that conclusion however only at the risk of being wrong. Please remember, China as an industrialized nation is very very recent. As such they have grown exponentially and learned many mistakes of unregulated growth (pollution etc.). This could only take place with a world economy that would welcome the production of cheap products. They have watched from and learned how Japan grew, they are aware of the failings of their educational systems and are attempting to overcome them. They have a local population that are ready to grow in wealth and become part of the economy to become a vast middle class. Cities are being moved to make way for better planned cities (for example Beijing).

Again, it is easy to pour derision on everything you do not understand however it is wise to try and figure out why they are doing what they are than assuming they are just dumb.

originally posted by: Greathouse

originally posted by: notmyrealname

originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: mapsurfer_


SnF Just because I give most threads I comment on a star in flag .

I would really like to see someone do a thread on this that can explain it more in debt . From a layman's point I can understand what's going on and have understood for a while. China has not just been building go cities in their country they've done it in Africa and other places .

Robust lending leads to good economy from what I understand . Again as a laymen in international finance. It appears to me that China Borrowing money to build infrastructure. They knew these buildings would not be used and that the Communist Party did not look ahead far enough to see that this system or eventually crash.

I've seen many businesses rise and fall. There's a statement you use for deceptive practices like that . "You can live great on credit for 20 years then the house of cards Falls ". I've seen builders, real estate agents and restaurants subscribing to that policy regularly . But the end result is always the same .

Now I admit my lack of understanding in international finance. So I will ask somebody that knows. Does that policy apply internationally also ?

As you have mentioned finance with regards to international developments, please note that the companies that are doing the developments are getting favorable terms because they are not just pledging fiat currency to complete their projects. Countries in Africa generally offer concessions to gain the favor of Chinese companies building whatever infrastructure/housing that they desire on the cheap. This is a difference in asian lending and development and Western. The CHinese government gain concessions (i.e.. mineral rights, land agriculture etc.) and promote Chinese cheap labor to build (Yes the quality is cheap too). What the results hold is Chinese companies holding rare earth mineral rights for most of the planet and US companies holding bombs and electronics that rely upon the rare earth minerals.

Of course, this is a single example of a single issue however the pattern follows through other industries.

I can understand partially what you're saying. I just don't see the opposite comparisons in this situation yet . When the US housing bubble burst it affected the entire world .


People seem to think that when the Chinese housing bubble burst it won't bother anyone. To me this makes absolutely no sense ?


Again I know my response is rather simple. Could you dumb it down a little for me so I can catch the concept of what you're saying ?

The US housing bubble ONLY took place due to government intervention and banking greed. Firstly, the USG demanded that banks open their lending to just about anyone that wanted a mortgage (no doc loans no proof of income, no job, no problem). The lending spree that ensued and the inflation of the marketplace was artificial and not capable of long term stability. Then came the bank's greed; they took mortgages and bundled them up together to make derivatives called CMO's (Collateralized Mortgage Obligations) and sold them to anyone who wanted in on the great housing boon!! Yippee there's gold in housing development!!!!

Problem is that it could not and did not last (never will with artificial inflation).

Now keeping on topic with China, you cannot just go and easily get a mortgage from the bank. You need 20~50% cash down. Also while there is a lot of development and speculation, the government is keeping growth (more and more) controlled as to not have a massive bust. Has it happened some places? Yes. Has the development of China been some foolish unbridled mess? No.

The US uses the banking industry to control governmental growth policy and China does it directly from the government. There are benefits to each approach as long as the government does not lose control over the banks….

Who has a better system? let's wait and see where our economy is going and where their economy is going to answer that one. In the mean time, owning some cash in RMB may be a good idea….

a reply to: notmyrealname

Oh, I agree absolutely. I've been following the strange story of Communist China since I was old enough to understand politics. One thing Americans need to remember: these people do not think like us. They come from a completely different culture and they most assuredly are not stupid. While we may scratch our heads trying to figure out what they're about, they most assuredly have a plan. They know what they're doing, even if it appears strange looking in.

I have a healthy respect for the Chinese even though I find their methods to be utterly deplorable and morally repugnant. These guys are making their own rules and doing something with them.

a reply to: Kojiro
I agree with you regarding the Chinese and Morals/culture.

I guess we have the West to thank for that. Let's see Encouragement of Japan to repeatedly attack a peaceful prosperous nation. The placement and torment of the Cultural revolution (by the West) to destroy the culture and prosperity of the entire nation and reduce it to third world status. I do understand that current day Chinese are rude and have very little respect for the sanctity of life. Just remember where they were and how they got here to have the full story.

P. S. Just so you know as an example, A friend's family was the first in their building to get a 12" B&W TV and neighbors came from all around to catch a glimpse at the 1 station that was available…. That was in 1984; let that sink in a bit.

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: notmyrealname

Oh, I agree absolutely. I've been following the strange story of Communist China since I was old enough to understand politics. One thing Americans need to remember: these people do not think like us. They come from a completely different culture and they most assuredly are not stupid. While we may scratch our heads trying to figure out what they're about, they most assuredly have a plan. They know what they're doing, even if it appears strange looking in.

I have a healthy respect for the Chinese even though I find their methods to be utterly deplorable and morally repugnant. These guys are making their own rules and doing something with them.

You would think so many millenia of wisdom, they would come up with some coherent human laws.

originally posted by: notmyrealname
a reply to: Kojiro
P. S. Just so you know as an example, A friend's family was the first in their building to get a 12" B&W TV and neighbors came from all around to catch a glimpse at the 1 station that was available…. That was in 1984; let that sink in a bit.

Oh, quite. The societal circumstances and impact are not lost on me. It's a great tragedy, but this is what their country has become. Now we can only watch, and wonder where they go next.

originally posted by: Kratos40

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: notmyrealname

Oh, I agree absolutely. I've been following the strange story of Communist China since I was old enough to understand politics. One thing Americans need to remember: these people do not think like us. They come from a completely different culture and they most assuredly are not stupid. While we may scratch our heads trying to figure out what they're about, they most assuredly have a plan. They know what they're doing, even if it appears strange looking in.

I have a healthy respect for the Chinese even though I find their methods to be utterly deplorable and morally repugnant. These guys are making their own rules and doing something with them.

You would think so many millenia of wisdom, they would come up with some coherent human laws.

Sure, after the humiliation of the Japanese invasion and the anti-education anti wealth policies of the Cultural Revolution which put the poorest ignorant people in charge and killed/displaced the intelligent/industrious people of the country, they had a great start!

originally posted by: notmyrealname

originally posted by: Greathouse

originally posted by: notmyrealname

originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: mapsurfer_


SnF Just because I give most threads I comment on a star in flag .

I would really like to see someone do a thread on this that can explain it more in debt . From a layman's point I can understand what's going on and have understood for a while. China has not just been building go cities in their country they've done it in Africa and other places .

Robust lending leads to good economy from what I understand . Again as a laymen in international finance. It appears to me that China Borrowing money to build infrastructure. They knew these buildings would not be used and that the Communist Party did not look ahead far enough to see that this system or eventually crash.

I've seen many businesses rise and fall. There's a statement you use for deceptive practices like that . "You can live great on credit for 20 years then the house of cards Falls ". I've seen builders, real estate agents and restaurants subscribing to that policy regularly . But the end result is always the same .

Now I admit my lack of understanding in international finance. So I will ask somebody that knows. Does that policy apply internationally also ?

As you have mentioned finance with regards to international developments, please note that the companies that are doing the developments are getting favorable terms because they are not just pledging fiat currency to complete their projects. Countries in Africa generally offer concessions to gain the favor of Chinese companies building whatever infrastructure/housing that they desire on the cheap. This is a difference in asian lending and development and Western. The CHinese government gain concessions (i.e.. mineral rights, land agriculture etc.) and promote Chinese cheap labor to build (Yes the quality is cheap too). What the results hold is Chinese companies holding rare earth mineral rights for most of the planet and US companies holding bombs and electronics that rely upon the rare earth minerals.

Of course, this is a single example of a single issue however the pattern follows through other industries.

I can understand partially what you're saying. I just don't see the opposite comparisons in this situation yet . When the US housing bubble burst it affected the entire world .


People seem to think that when the Chinese housing bubble burst it won't bother anyone. To me this makes absolutely no sense ?


Again I know my response is rather simple. Could you dumb it down a little for me so I can catch the concept of what you're saying ?

Who has a better system? let's wait and see where our economy is going and where their economy is going to answer that one. In the mean time, owning some cash in RMB may be a good idea….

I fear no system is better, because all parties are most likely dishonest and cutthroat. The U.S. Spends uncontrollably and is in debt. China has lent more to the U.S. than anyone else. If a consumer charges up a credit card, and decides he can't pay anymore...who gets stuck? The lender. If the US decides they don't want to pay their credit card to China anymore, China gets stuck. And their Military is not big enough to "Collect"

a reply to: Kojiro

I have no skin in the game either way. I just feel that they are a growing nation that deserves a modicum of respect. If you were to compare the USA to China 30 years ago, you would be able to see just how far one has fallen and one has risen.

China is no utopia for sure and they have lots to learn however there is much for Western nations to learn yet also.

a reply to: TheChrome

…ah, well now that is all dependent upon whether the Chinese have allowed themselves to be put in that position or not. Perhaps they are not doing what the Japanese did in the late 80's early 90's…

Time will tell and I have a feeling there will be some surprises in the short term regarding this matter.

…and no I am not talking about the Military at all.

originally posted by: ~Lucidity
Seems they forgot the part of the equation that if you are to have a consumer culture, you have to have consumers. And to have consumers you have to pay people a decent wage. If that's not it, what am I missing. Just freaking strange all around.

Yeah, strange… Build a wealthy class and industrializing using foreign dollars while keeping your money at home so that when the foreign economy cannot buy anymore, your own economy can fill the gap and create a larger middle class.

Or do you think that the US has a better plan on the table for it's people?

a reply to: notmyrealname

I just want to make one thing clear, I am an objective observer and do not support one nation over another. I do however believe that the Bible tells us how things are going to shake down very soon.

Ezekiel 7:19 "They will throw their silver into the streets, and their gold will be an unclean thing."

When the hit fits the shan, these conversations about buying gold, and investing in this or that will be irrelevant. The Bible indicates the U.S. will still be the predominate power when things come to pass.

originally posted by: TheChrome
a reply to: notmyrealname

I just want to make one thing clear, I am an objective observer and do not support one nation over another. I do however believe that the Bible tells us how things are going to shake down very soon.

Ezekiel 7:19 "They will throw their silver into the streets, and their gold will be an unclean thing."

When the hit fits the shan, these conversations about buying gold, and investing in this or that will be irrelevant. The Bible indicates the U.S. will still be the predominate power when things come to pass.

Well, then I think it is a great idea for you to stay in the Bible and plan you life accordingly. The rest of us have a life to get on with. I mean really scripture?! Pahleeze, Why can't Christians and Muslims just act more like Buddhists and Judaists by keeping to themselves and not bothering anyone that does not care about their particular brand of death worship. Why do you mention religion in this thread? Really why?

originally posted by: TheChrome
a reply to: notmyrealname

The Bible indicates the U.S. will still be the predominate power when things come to pass.

The US did not even exist when the bible was written…. Go to another thread before I get censored!

a reply to: notmyrealname

Because it is pertinent to the subject. So to alter a quote "Is it pertinent? let's wait and see"