The Ban On Transgender Individuals In The Military May Soon Be Lifted

originally posted by: EKron

originally posted by: JadeStar
I take back what I said. I think transgender women like you are probably the most dangerous to any progress we make.

You're simply too new, have not socialized as female more than a hot 5 minutes, your body may be fighting itself hormonally and playing havok with your mood as a result and due to your former male privilege which you got so used to while pretending to be one of the guys you'd rather "take down the entire ship" rather than re-evaluate your position or be open to the possibility that your views may change as the way you are perceived within society does.

I understand your anger and perhaps jealousy? But it's no excuse for your "scorched earth" policy.

I avoid the trans community because I've encountered other transgender women like you who want to undermine those of us who have done everything we could to make those around us who may not understand these issues, comfortable.

I really would hope you look within yourself to understand these issues are bigger than you or me or any of us so tearing us down because you took offense only makes everyone feel awful.

Rock on!

Princess, this is tough love. You need to listen. Please

Thing is I would ease up but when I feel talked down to it makes it kind of hard for me. I know I have become the villain of this evening but I'm sorry I just want to point out that it hurts and is not cool to be viewed differently within an already misunderstood group. I actually don't really care that much but I like to argue and maybe needed to vent so there. Oh and I can be dangerous but never to my sisters NEVER just honest.

a reply to: TrappedPrincess

I've read the whole thread and sticked with it. Your a good sport and your have conviction and I can't help to admire that. No matter what most people on ATS know they have been cheated from this world and we have. That being said, we all have things that trouble is be it gender, past, emotional pain, medical conditions and ect. These are all things that should be seen in society and not judged,we should have the same chance at the American dream and be able to openly voice our opinion. That being said I still stand by it being a medical issue, one that can be assessed by the military and dealt with accordingly. I am not perfect, I have struggled, I am in amazing physical condition, but aspects of my past life still prevent me from serving. I could be bitter and say a stupid underage weed charge shouldn't prevent a young able individual with no broken bones, stitches, tattoos, piercings, medical conditions on and on and on, oh and I got a 96 on th asvab. I am different, I may even be an exception to the rule, but I am an adult who understands things in this world are hard for everyone. I say again Noone has the right or is entitled to join. I do not know war though I know I could but that does not matter. Again I admire you, but the military can not be argued in the. Same forum or context as our society

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: EKron

originally posted by: NavyDoc
Woah. Back up the truck here. What you said is Exactky the same thing that you guys bitch about we cis people say about you.

You are physically different than me. Thus, by your logic, I can talk down to you?

We are talking talking about the military that only recognizes two sexes. One has a penis and the other a vagina. I thought you'd have learned that in medical school?

Neither of you are in the military and you have both expressed discomfort with sharing facilities with Her and that she is not "fully" like you, so that particular backpedal does not fly.

So this is now a military vs civilian debate? Wonderful.

Wait...so those in the Military aren't the same kind of people outside of the Military? "Neither of you are in the military and you have both expressed discomfort with sharing facilities with 'Her' and that she is not fully like you..." So, if civilian people are uncomfortable with certain things, what makes you think the same feeling isn't shared within the military community?

I'm a Male, always have been. I don't want to go to the National Training Center(where there are community type showers) and have to stand next to some female with a penis in the shower. Doesn't matter how short your hair is, how 'manly' your arms are, how your voice sounds, you are not a male. Just because you had a surgery it doesn't make you a certain thing. Whatever you were born as, that is what you are, it really is that simple.

If I surgically had a cat head put on does it make me a cat? Nope.

a reply to: 2wheelvet

Actually, you'd probably be dead, seeing its the cat head who has your body now and your own head would be... in the trash? I suppose?

And besides, the comparison between transgenders and... cat head transplants is very, very ridiculous. No, a person is not what they are between their legs. That does not define them. It's what's between the ears that counts and frankly I hope that you're liberated of your ignorance on that fact soon.

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: 2wheelvet

Actually, you'd probably be dead, seeing its the cat head who has your body now and your own head would be... in the trash? I suppose?

And besides, the comparison between transgenders and... cat head transplants is very, very ridiculous. No, a person is not what they are between their legs. That does not define them. It's what's between the ears that counts and frankly I hope that you're liberated of your ignorance on that fact soon.

BINGO and THANK YOU for that, their are some who think it is entirely decided by what is between your legs to which I adamantly disagree.

I would like to say that in the attempt at proving a differing view I said some things this evening that some found to be hurtful. I admit that I was lashing out in a provocative nature in the effort of providing a alternative viewpoint. I have hurt and alienated some of my sisters which was never my intent. I just wanted to point out that some of the language used is dismissive and exclusive. I instead inflamed and enraged which I seem to be good at these days. I would never encourage anyone to say some of the things I said especially not for those not within our own community. In fact I would defend my community from those of you that would. I regret that things got out of hand and carried away. I'm ready to forgive and forget if the same courtesy is extended.

a reply to: TrappedPrincess

Dominance is confidence, you shall not need to project your ideas, if they hold substance (they do ) than people will listen. We all slip with our emotion, I did tonight too . Keep you conviction and stay well versed and calm. You do that and some will listen.

a reply to: Kojiro

I noticed how everyone jumped on the 'cat head transplant' statement instead of addressing the real issues I brought up. So, what you are really saying is you have no rebuttal for the real world situation I brought up.

"No, a person is not what they are between their legs. That does not define them."

Really? Well, do birth certificates not mention male or female? Do you not have to answer male or female on all kinds of forms for pretty much anything? Male and female does define a person, nice try though.

originally posted by: 2wheelvet
a reply to: Kojiro

I noticed how everyone jumped on the 'cat head transplant' statement instead of addressing the real issues I brought up. So, what you are really saying is you have no rebuttal for the real world situation I brought up.

"No, a person is not what they are between their legs. That does not define them."

Really? Well, do birth certificates not mention male or female? Do you not have to answer male or female on all kinds of forms for pretty much anything? Male and female does define a person, nice try though.

They should give you a watermelon for a head, it would be an improvement over what you have now at least in terms of intellect and possibly even looks too but that i can not confirm.

a reply to: crazyewok

You mean your recruiting officers in England aren't told to coach the potential recruits to lie about anything that could hold you out like they do in the states? According to the Army, I've never smoked pot and don't have ADD. Heck my recruiting officer PAID for a drug test to make sure I was clean then AGAIN paid for a masking agent the day I went in for the urinalysis.

Ok I think someone already posted a photo in but ANYONE who sees this guy Sgt Ortega

and thinks "nope not a man in my book, just one of those in-betweens therefore should not be allowed to serve" is MOTHER EFFING CRAZY in my book. Ok lets take for example when our less enlightened brethren see a naturally statuesque and handsome woman and say amongst themselves "*giggle* dude thats a dude huh huh". You see the irony and hypocrisy there? Do we?

Sgt Ortega is a MAN through and through, I'm sorry but I think someone said in another thread SHUT UP AND TAKE IT.

For those that would care Im all hyped up on some old school Wu-Tang while I typed this, taking it back to some Ironman



AND anyone who thinks that this MAN joined for the wrong reasons is blind and unable to see this young soldiers love and commitment to his given profession. That the Army would be remiss to separate him on the ludicrous notion that he does not belong amongst it's ranks.


AND Jade and EK I'm not directing this at you to be clear, nothing but love here so don't be upset I'm just being me. I hope we can be friends again.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: crazyewok

You mean your recruiting officers in England aren't told to coach the potential recruits to lie about anything that could hold you out like they do in the states? According to the Army, I've never smoked pot and don't have ADD. Heck my recruiting officer PAID for a drug test to make sure I was clean then AGAIN paid for a masking agent the day I went in for the urinalysis.

Maybe it was because it was RN college? They can be picky. Plus i can understand the worry of haveing a officer on a type 45 having a breakdown.

If I had enlisted in the UK army im guessing it would be like the states though with only 100k troops again they can be selective i guess. I know for the royal marines my freinds had a tough time getting in.

Funny enough the RAF are always shooting me emails for there biomedical team , dont like the pay though and hate flying

originally posted by: 2wheelvet
a reply to: Kojiro
Really? Well, do birth certificates not mention male or female?

Mine correctly says female now.

a reply to: 2wheelvet

Right, those are oh so very iron clad and set in stone. They could never possibly be changed.

Oh, wait.... Actually, they can.

And by the way I get the point jade star is makeing.


Lets put it this way as a straight guy Im not going to ever date a "woman" with with a penis.



There is a diffrence a very big one. It just needs accepting and moving on.


Fact is as someone not in the LGT community ( LHGFTNASD community or whatever the hell its bloody called now) I do like it as not perceive a diffrence. Now it has taken some thinking but im starting to accept transexauls, now if that is jade in her avatar I would find, infact I do find it alot more easy to accept her as a woman especially after speaking to her. For someone who is not shall we say anatomically correct It would be a struggle, sorry.

That may be ignorant or bigoted of me, but it is how it is.

originally posted by: crazyewok
And by the way I get the point jade star is makeing.


Lets put it this way as a straight guy Im not going to ever date a "woman" with with a penis.



There is a diffrence a very big one. It just needs accepting and moving on.


Fact is as someone not in the LGT community ( LHGFTNASD community or whatever the hell its bloody called now) I do like it as not perceive a diffrence. Now it has taken some thinking but im starting to accept transexauls, now if that is jade in her avatar I would find, infact I do find it alot more easy to accept her as a woman especially after speaking to her. For someone who is not shall we say anatomically correct It would be a struggle, sorry.

That may be ignorant or bigoted of me, but it is how it is.

The convo isn't really about your sexual preferences, it is about the military allowing transgender in. As for my "difference" don't worry about that and I promise I'll never show it too you anyway.

a reply to: TrappedPrincess

You missed the point.


My point socialy there is going to be a diffrence between pre op and post op.

To pretend there isnt and getting deffensive is not going to change that.

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: TrappedPrincess

You missed the point.


My point socialy there is going to be a diffrence between pre op and post op.

To pretend there isnt and getting deffensive is not going to change that.

All differences aside and pun absolutely intended I think we are getting off track. So lets go back to a simple question then shall we, DO YOU THINK THAT THE SGT ORTEGA THAT I AND ANOTHER PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO FINISH HIS ENLISTMENT OR NOT?????

Hope that clears it up and brings us back to the issue at hand good sir.

a reply to: crazyewok

I think that particular part of the discussion is past. It raised a lot of bad blood and thankfully everything has cooled down and apologies were made.

Yes, there is a slight difference between pre-op, post-op, and non-op. The controversy unfortunately exists within the transgendered community, but there you go. Controversy is everywhere, in everything. In the end, we're still all human and we're in this together.

But please, do not try to start this debate again, because it is a very sensitive subject. Would you date a woman with a penis, obviously not, but some people here would. And wouldn't care.

This thread is about the military lifting the ban on transgendered service members. While it looks like they're leaving out pre-op and non-op transsexuals for consideration, perhaps sometime in the not so distant future, and everyone has less hangups, they'll consider opening up the door for them too.

a reply to: Kojiro

Gotta take baby steps sometimes. Getting people to accept transgenders is hard enough as it is, let alone making them accept the idea of a supposed dude without a penis showering with them or a supposed woman with a penis showering with them or whatever. I can understand this sentiment myself. I just hope that we will fix this once attitudes have warmed up around this issue more.