Is Vlad starting to cave in ? Is this a sign of Ukrainian victory ?

originally posted by: rigel4
a reply to: MrSpad

To quote an old film...
" Son Russians don't take a dump without a plan"

The question could be...why the sudden change of direction by papa vlad?

It might not be, it could simply be Russia can not afford a sustained conflict in Ukraine. It does not mean he will give up Crimea or that his days causing trouble in bordering states are over. However, things are bad for Russia now, real bad. With China's economic down turn oil demand will drop and that is Russia's life blood. Could be that is the straw that broke the camels back. It is simply hard to tell what they are up to. Although, if I was rebel in Ukraine I would be making other plans.

a reply to: MrSpad

I understand and also believe what you said. The drop in oil prices was the clincher .

But I believe the conflict in eastern Ukraine was a planned distraction. The real prize in the cake was the Crimea peninsula and it's mineral resources. Until that issue is resolved Vladimir Putin has gotten everything he really wanted .

originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: MrSpad

I understand and also believe what you said. The drop in oil prices was the clincher .

But I believe the conflict in eastern Ukraine was a planned distraction. The real prize in the cake was the Crimea peninsula and it's mineral resources. Until that issue is resolved Vladimir Putin has gotten everything he really wanted .

I think Eastern Ukraine was going to be his bargaining chip. Exchange in return for keeping Crimea. Now he may either be giving that chip up or unable to keep hold of it. Which means the sanctions will likely stay unless he has something else to offer. At least Russia will stop bleeding money and men it can not afford in what looks to be a very long conflict in Eastern Ukraine. Then again he could end up doubling down if the West or Ukraine gives him nothing and start pushing eastern Ukraine again no matter how painful it gets.

a reply to: MrSpad

Either scenario could develop I agree .

But the one good thing is, all of Europe has finally seen him blink on the world stage. There are multiple sources out there but what worries me is the total silence from the Kremlin controlled media .


i've said repeatedly on the thread. I will wait for confirmation before I believe this 100%. But I can't help but be optimistic about a peaceful outcome .

a reply to: Greathouse

Curiosity..

What makes you think he's lying?

a reply to: awareness10

He claims there are no Russian troops in Ukraine and they are not supplying any of the separatist . I know all politicians lie. But he knows not many people believe him . Good Lord I could have some respect for the man and his ambitions if he was just honest .

a reply to: Greathouse

Thankyou for your reply.

I understand however, i do know or am aware that poroshenko and his army have been shooting up towns including innocent people who had nothing to do with it, and don't wish to hear what those of Russian decent have to say or even what they want. They did afterall have a referendum and the people chose against what those in charge over Ukraine are doing trying to do. So if Putin were indeed trying to protect those people in fear of the Ukraine Army wouldn't it make sense that he tried to do it covertly?

The ones with the worst track record in the past 50 yrs would be the American Govt not the Russians.

a reply to: awareness10

I understand however, i do know or am aware that poroshenko and his army have been shooting up towns including innocent people who had nothing to do with it,

I have heard those reports also they are awful . I'm sure they happen because that thing goes on during wars . Both sides do it what bothers me about the lies. Is that the side that is tooting the horn about the atrocities committed by the Ukrainians has not once stated that the rebels have also done it. Even the mainstream media gives both takes on the atrocities . But for some reason the Russian media does not ?


Purposely telling one side of the story is lying in my opinion .

They did afterall have a referendum and the people chose against what those in charge

Yes from one point of view they had a fair referendum . By any chance would you mind Linking me to all of the countries in the world that recognize that referendum ? I can't speak for the eastern Ukraine but in Crimea only three or five countries in the entire world recognized that annexation .

The ones with the worst track record in the past 50 yrs would be the American Govt not the Russians.

I agree with that statement 100%. But are you saying that that makes Russian aggression OK ? To me a statement like that is only making excuses .

a reply to: Greathouse

Even the Russians admitted (in a quickly removed webpage) that the referendum in Crimea was a farce -

As you may recall, the official Crimean election results, as reported widely in the Western press, showed a 97 percent vote in favor of annexation with a turnout of 83 percent. No international observers were allowed. The pro-Russia election pressure would have raised the already weak vote in favor of annexation, of course.

Yesterday, however, according to a major Ukrainian news site, TSN.ua, the website of the President of Russia’s Council on Civil Society and Human Rights (shortened to President’s Human Rights Council) posted a report that was quickly taken down as if it were toxic radioactive waste. According to this purported report about the March referendum to annex Crimea, the turnout of Crimean voters was only 30 percent. And of these, only half voted for the referendum–meaning only 15 percent of Crimean citizens voted for annexation.

However, there is a report of the Human Rights Council, entitled “Problems of Crimean Residents,” still up on the president-sovet.ru website, which discusses the Council’s estimates of the results of the March 16 referendum. Quoting from that report: “In Crimea, according to various indicators, 50-60% voted for unification with Russia with a voter turnout (yavka) of 30-50%.” This leads to a range of between 15 percent (50% x 30%) and 30 percent (60% x 50%) voting for annexation

Link

EDIT - The link appeared to be broken

originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: awareness10

Sorry it took so long to reply, just making something to eat here.

[YOU]
I have heard those reports also they are awful . I'm sure they happen because that thing goes on during wars . Both sides do it what bothers me about the lies. Is that the side that is tooting the horn about the atrocities committed by the Ukrainians has not once stated that the rebels have also done it. Even the mainstream media gives both takes on the atrocities . But for some reason the Russian media does not ? Purposely telling one side of the story is lying in my opinion .

[ME]
I have one problem with this.. Most main stream media is Western Bought. Im not saying propaganda doesn't exist on both sides of the same fence but... How can you be so sure what you Believe isbmainstream media, isn't just more intellual babble to soothe the peasants and shift their perception to that which televised and media want them to see and believe? As i said before, the Western Gov's are very very good at it and they have the majority countries in their grasp.


[YOU]
Yes from one point of view they had a fair referendum . By any chance would you mind Linking me to all of the countries in the world that recognize that referendum ? I can't speak for the eastern Ukraine but in Crimea only three or five countries in the entire world recognized that annexation .


[ME]
I cannot however, I will say this.. If i were Russian, i wouldn't give up my family heritage for thugs with 50 billion dollars, not for anything. Most countries did not recognise it because if they did, the UN and the USA and whomever else involved would most likely cause financial problems for their Countries too. It's hard to confront a Bully you know, especially when they're the ones with all the guns and candy.

The United Kingdom conquered many lands, so many in fact they owned half the world. Im sure though that no one complained or tried to fight it for the same reason these Countries aren't recognising 'this' referendum. In Canada the French had a referendum and the Anglo Saxons voted against them. Does that mean that they get to do it again because they were wrong? No it doesn't.


[YOU]
I agree with that statement 100%. But are you saying that that makes Russian aggression OK ? To me a statement like that is only making excuses.

[ME]
Yes we do agree on this point. No i am not saying it makes Russian or USA aggression OK. On the contrary. Im sorry that to You it sounds like an excuse, but as you know words written or typed lack personal feeling and you cannot assume so quickly what one may or may not be thinking as that would be blaming someone as guilty before innocent recognition is established.

edit on 7/7/2015 by awareness10 because: (no reason given)

a reply to: stumason

Do you have a link for that? I'd like to see it, i'd also like to see who actually wrote it. I mean someone besides an American Magazine with Western writers who favor their fake democracy.

a reply to: stumason

Thanks the whole world also knows it. One of the few things that offends me on social media. Is that despite this people with the obvious agendas are allowed to keep reposting a obvious lie .

a reply to: awareness10

I have one problem with this.. Most main stream media is Western Bought.

Yep I agree 100%. And I don't believe them, but at least I get to hear both sides of the story from them and form my own opinion. If you only read the Russian media you get one side of the story and are told what you should think. That's called programming not news .

Most countries did not recognise it because if they did, the UN and the USA and whomever else involved would most likely cause financial problems

Untrue, not only did most countries not recognize it. The majority of the countries declared it illegal because it was .

a reply to: Greathouse

Ok, but you failed to repond to the other comments i posted.

- Western Gov's have a rotten track record

- They stole land from natives and they're still stealing

- They kill maim and destroy other countries simply to Conquer them

- They are no different from what Israel is doing to Syria and other neighboring countries

I think it was illegal what they did when they created the IS and other terroristic groups

When you have the biggest balls, it seems to make people cower in fear, this is clearly wrong. I've seen Putin atleast 'try' to come up with a solution, he's polite about it too, unlike the US gov who like to fling their middle fingers at people and tell ridiculous tales about how they're making the fake 'non' gold standard monetary system work. It's all a farce and it's all fake.
- What makes you think they're not lying about this?

I could go on..

originally posted by: awareness10
a reply to: Greathouse

Thankyou for your reply.

I understand however, i do know or am aware that poroshenko and his army have been shooting up towns including innocent people who had nothing to do with it, and don't wish to hear what those of Russian decent have to say or even what they want. They did afterall have a referendum and the people chose against what those in charge over Ukraine are doing trying to do. So if Putin were indeed trying to protect those people in fear of the Ukraine Army wouldn't it make sense that he tried to do it covertly?

The ones with the worst track record in the past 50 yrs would be the American Govt not the Russians.

The problem with Putin is the Russian speakers in (insert country here) do not need help until Russia suddenly has a problem with that nation. Russian interventions in Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia twice, Ukraine and Moldova are always justified as protecting some people who fine until Russia needed an excuse.

When the Ukraine Rebels were getting drunk, shooting up towns and stealing anything the could the population turned on them and they were driven to almost complete collapse until the Russian's moved in and took over the war. Who were the Russians saving? A deserting drunken mob of that used to be a rebel force who had been completely rejected by the local population?

And of course nobody buys the Crimean vote not even Russia's friends China and Iran have recognized and pretty much the entire world voted to condemn it. If you can convince you friends your staged vote was real why would anybody on Earth buy it.

And when you bring up 50 years of history you might want do some reading about what the Russian were up to. The US comes off pretty good in that comparison.

originally posted by: awareness10
a reply to: Greathouse

Ok, but you failed to repond to the other comments i posted.

- Western Gov's have a rotten track record

- They stole land from natives and they're still stealing

- They kill maim and destroy other countries simply to Conquer them

- They are no different from what Israel is doing to Syria and other neighboring countries

I think it was illegal what they did when they created the IS and other terroristic groups

When you have the biggest balls, it seems to make people cower in fear, this is clearly wrong. I've seen Putin atleast 'try' to come up with a solution, he's polite about it too, unlike the US gov who like to fling their middle fingers at people and tell ridiculous tales about how they're making the fake 'non' gold standard monetary system work. It's all a farce and it's all fake.
- What makes you think they're not lying about this?

I could go on..

Most of your statements that aren't new I already agreed with. So yes I already did respond to your statement .


I thought we would have a pleasant conversation. I feel dishearted I was mistaken .

a reply to: MrSpad

Ok fair enough. But there is a lack of truth on both sides here. Who to trust? I trust Putin more than i trust Obama Bush or Clinton, but besides that, there is something nagging me about this whole thing, call it intuition if you like but something isn't right. And why would a Billionaire Chocolate King be chosen to rule Ukraine? I know neither side is faultless however.

If the Rebels as we've been told were terrible rogues and only there to destroy and control then yes, that would be a problem, but my problem with this is something doesn't add up yet, i can't decifer precisely what that is at this time.

I don't disagree that the Russians were more open than covert like the Americans at that time, within the last fifty years, but .. they also had a stupid president who drank too much and before that a dictator. You can't say the current Russian President is the same as the last ones past. It's the Now that counts, the past is gone and the people who ran it live no more, apart from the drunken one. In the USA they're all related, pretty much every President in America are Related to each other, it's a 'keep it in the family' Organized crime kinda thing

a reply to: Greathouse

No i'm having fun, don't make me feel so guilty lol, i'm sorry i didnt mean to come across as angry or anything honest, it's just the way i type. I like you and i just really enjoy debates it's something i don't get to do in RL.

Smile and be happy ok?

a reply to: awareness10

What, apart from the link I put in my post you mean? If you read the article, it links it's sources (namely, the Russian Presidents Human Rights Commission website)

a reply to: awareness10

No problem darling .


I was hoping I could break the developing frost from both of us .