Autopsy finds Freddie Gray suffered 'high-energy injury' in Baltimore police van: report

originally posted by: pilgrimOmega

originally posted by: alphastrike101

originally posted by: Boadicea

originally posted by: Edumakated

Except for the fact that there were two other prisoners in the van with him who indicated nothing of the sort.

Why do you say that? Was it confirmed somewhere?

I'm not doubting you... I wondered the same thing here. But I never saw it confirmed anywhere.

Yes it was confirmed there were two others in there with him. One of the other prisoners is on the record saying that he could hear Mr gray banging his head trying to injure himself.

That same prisoner first denied that he said anything to the police but then admitted he did talk to investigators and told them ie could hear Mr gray banging on the other side of the van.

Yes, at this point it is very clear that you are saying that Freddie Gray killed himself to make the police look bad.

That is apparently your argument.

Unbelievable.

I am only bringing up facts of the matter.
Conclude what you want but the facts are the facts.

Here is the timeline of the Freddie Gray arrest and transport: New York Times

No Seatbelt UsedThe police van arrived. The officers put Mr. Gray into the van but did not secure him with a seatbelt, as required by department regulations, Ms. Mosby said.

Stop No. 1Ms. Mosby said Lieutenant Rice directed the van driver, Officer Caesar R. Goodson Jr., to stop. She said Officers Miller and Nero and Lieutenant Rice removed Mr. Gray from the van and placed him in leg restraints. Mr. Gray was loaded head first onto the floor of the van, Ms. Mosby said.

Between 8:54 and 8:59 a.m. Critical Neck InjuryLieutenant Rice directed Officer Goodson to take Mr. Gray to Baltimore’s Central Booking and Intake Center, Ms. Mosby said. “Following transport from Baker Street, Mr. Gray suffered a severe and critical neck injury as a result of being handcuffed, shackled by his feet and unrestrained inside the B.P.D. wagon,” she said.

Stop No. 2Officer Goodson stopped the van at Fremont Avenue and Mosher Street and went back to observe Mr. Gray. “Despite stopping for the purpose of checking on Mr. Gray’s condition, at no point did he seek nor did he render any medical assistance for Mr. Gray,” Ms. Mosby said. With Mr. Gray still unsecured by a seatbelt, Officer Goodson returned to the driver’s seat and continued on to Central Booking, Ms. Mosby said.

8:59 a.m. Stop No. 3A few blocks later, Ms. Mosby said, Officer Goodson called dispatch for help checking on his prisoner. Officer William G. Porter arrived and he and Officer Goodson went to the back of the van. “Mr. Gray at that time requested help and indicated that he could not breathe,” Ms. Mosby said. She said Mr. Gray “indicated at least twice that he was in need of a medic.” Officer Porter helped Mr. Gray from the floor of the van to the bench, she said, but neither officer belted him in nor requested or rendered medical assistance.

Stop No. 4Ms. Mosby said Officer Goodson was met here by Officers Nero, Miller and Porter. Sgt. Alicia D. White and Officers Porter and Goodson observed “Mr. Gray unresponsive on the floor,” Ms. Mosby said. Sergeant White spoke to the back of Mr. Gray’s head, and he did not respond. “Despite Mr. Gray’s seriously deteriorating medical condition, no medical assistance was rendered or summoned for Mr. Gray at that time by any officer,” Ms. Mosby said. The additional prisoner was loaded into the van on the opposite side. For the fifth time, according to Ms. Mosby, Officer Goodson failed to restrain Mr. Gray with a seatbelt.

(highlighting mine)

The other prisoner was loaded into the van at the 4th stop, according to this timeline, which is based on the State Attorney for Baltimore.

Police have only mentioned two prisoners being in the van for that ride... Gray and Donta Allen.
Interestingly enough, Donta Allen was interviewed by CNN and said this:

"I know for a fact that he (Gray) did not hurt himself," Donta Allen, who was a fellow prisoner in the van during a portion of the meandering path of the vehicle after Gray was taken into the custody and before medical help was summoned, told CNN's Don Lemon in an interview. Reciting a litany of Gray's injuries, Allen added "you cannot do that (to yourself) in the paddy wagon. You can probably hit your head and have a little headache, but you can't hurt yourself to the point you're going to be dead." And as for a report in the Washington Post that he told investigators he had heard noises indicating Gray was trying to injure himself, "untrue. Very, very, very untrue," said Allen. During the interview, airing Friday on "CNN Tonight," Allen said at the police station, as he was being taken to the "bullpen" area for incoming prisoners, he overheard a female police officer say, "Well, you know, we gave him a run for his money -- he's not breathing." "I don't know who, but I heard police saying that," Allen told Lemon. "They weren't saying it like, 'Guys, we really have a problem here.'"

CNN

originally posted by: Edumakated

While I support police, I certainly don't believe all of them are angels.

I support good police... but not bullies with badges whose prisoners end up dead from injuries sustained in their custody.

However, I don't think this is the case to hold up as some cause du jour of police misconduct.

Obviously. Of course, you really have no idea what the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is... and apparently you don't want or need to know...

The rush to judgment of the community agitators and politicians is going to cause Baltimore to burn again when these cops are acquitted.

No, it's not the community agitators and politicians rushing to judgment. Freddie Gray is dead from injuries sustained while in police custody. A thorough and complete investigation has been completed. Those with the knowledge, experience and authority to do so have determined that criminal wrongdoing was involved. Those involved will be given their day in court, for a full hearing of all evidence with opportunity for rebuttal, to be decided by a jury of our peers. That is not a rush to judgment. The ones rushing to judgment are those with so little regard for life and limb and the law that are rushing to judgment by giving the accused a free pass on minimal information.

I pray you are wrong about Baltimore burning.

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: pilgrimOmega
Sounds like they gave Freddie the 'nickel ride', hanging turns, jackrabbit starts and slamming on the brakes.
Many suspected that was what killed him, now the autopsy results seem to agree.

Except for the fact that there were two other prisoners in the van with him who indicated nothing of the sort.

It's two other prisoners now? I originally it was only one other prisoner and he is given two different versions of what happened in the back of that van . Not to mention that when the high impact injury is alleged to have occurred . That prisoner was not even in the van yet .

originally posted by: Sremmos80

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: pilgrimOmega
Sounds like they gave Freddie the 'nickel ride', hanging turns, jackrabbit starts and slamming on the brakes.
Many suspected that was what killed him, now the autopsy results seem to agree.

Except for the fact that there were two other prisoners in the van with him who indicated nothing of the sort.

And the fact they were not in the van the whole time....
They were in there for like the last block of transporting. After that stop that went unreported when this first surfaced.

Actually according to the timeline. The second stop was the unscheduled stop and according to Marilyn Mosby the injury happened between the first and second stops .

a reply to: butcherguy

It's possible that one of the prisoners was already in the van when Mr. Gray was picked up. With the timeline given, that's the only way I can see that another prisoner was in the van.

There is a diagram of a police van with three compartments here at the NY Times.

Two other prisoners (besides Mr. Gray) would explain the discrepancy in statements attributed to Donte Allen.

a reply to: Greathouse

It's two other prisoners now? I originally it was only one other prisoner and he is given two different versions of what happened in the back of that van . Not to mention that when the high impact injury is alleged to have occurred . That prisoner was not even in the van yet .

A third prisoner in the van, possibly picked up prior to Freddie Gray, could explain the discrepancies. I explained my reasons for wondering about a third prisoner here, with links. I haven't seen any official confirmation nor denial of a third prisoner though. I don't have time today to hunt it down, but I will tonight... if someone doesn't beat me to it!

An interesting side note: If there was indeed a third prisoner in the van, then the Washington Post is part of the deception, as the one who first reported on the other passenger being a much older man arrested for a different crime, which they then "corrected" after Donte Allen went public with a different story.

a reply to: Greathouse

Did that prisoner happen to mention the prisoner unconscious on the floor of the van. Because if the injury was sustained before the second prisoner was loaded in then it should have been evident already at that point. Right?
I admit I'm not too familiar with this story so I don't know if he was dead already when they reached the jail or merely injured. Was he walking then or did they need a gourney to remove him from the van?

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Greathouse

It's two other prisoners now? I originally it was only one other prisoner and he is given two different versions of what happened in the back of that van . Not to mention that when the high impact injury is alleged to have occurred . That prisoner was not even in the van yet .

A third prisoner in the van, possibly picked up prior to Freddie Gray, could explain the discrepancies. I explained my reasons for wondering about a third prisoner here, with links. I haven't seen any official confirmation nor denial of a third prisoner though. I don't have time today to hunt it down, but I will tonight... if someone doesn't beat me to it!

An interesting side note: If there was indeed a third prisoner in the van, then the Washington Post is part of the deception, as the one who first reported on the other passenger being a much older man arrested for a different crime, which they then "corrected" after Donte Allen went public with a different story.

I can't go there . Every bit of information from the police states that there was only one other person in the van . The same information all states that prisoner was picked up after the injuries occurred as alleged by the prosecutor .

originally posted by: AutumnWitch657
a reply to: Greathouse

Did that prisoner happen to mention the prisoner unconscious on the floor of the van. Because if the injury was sustained before the second prisoner was loaded in then it should have been evident already at that point. Right?
I admit I'm not too familiar with this story so I don't know if he was dead already when they reached the jail or merely injured. Was he walking then or did they need a gourney to remove him from the van?

No that second prisoner could not have seen Freddy . The van is partitioned into two sides and that prisoner was placed in the other side . There is a solid sheet of metal that separates them .

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: butcherguy

It's possible that one of the prisoners was already in the van when Mr. Gray was picked up. With the timeline given, that's the only way I can see that another prisoner was in the van.

There is a diagram of a police van with three compartments here at the NY Times.

Two other prisoners (besides Mr. Gray) would explain the discrepancy in statements attributed to Donte Allen.

To the best of my knowledge, there has never been any official confirmation of anyone being in the back of the van when Gray was being transported, with the exception of Donta Allen.

a reply to: butcherguy

Yes I agree that there is only one confirmed other prisoner in the van.

Mr Allen
"it was a smooth ride."
"Intentionally trying to injure himself"


m.nydailynews.com...

Mr Allen then claimed to the media that he never talked to police investigators but later admitted to making statements when presented the police reports.

originally posted by: alphastrike101
a reply to: butcherguy

Yes I agree that there is only one confirmed other prisoner in the van.

Mr Allen
"it was a smooth ride."
"Intentionally trying to injure himself"


m.nydailynews.com...

Mr Allen then claimed to the media that he never talked to police investigators but later admitted to making statements when presented the police reports.

Mr. Allen was picked up on the fourth stop on Mr. Gray's transport, so he has no knowledge of what happened between 8:40am and 9:00 am.
The brakes were applied at least four times before Mr. Allen entered the van.
Only the police and Mr. Gray's ghost know how many times and how hard they were applied.
The medical examiner is of the opinion that they were applied a bit too hard.... at least once.

a reply to: butcherguy

I have not seen any conclusion from the medical expert other than "high energy injury"

The report I read said that gray may have gotten to his feet where he was at risk for a fall. The autopsy said it is also possible the injury occurred as Gray was changing position on the floor of the van.

www.nbcnews.com...

originally posted by: alphastrike101
a reply to: butcherguy

I have not seen any conclusion from the medical expert other than "high energy injury"

The report I read said that gray may have gotten to his feet where he was at risk for a fall. The autopsy said it is also possible the injury occurred as Gray was changing position on the floor of the van.

www.nbcnews.com...

This from the Baltimore Sun

The medical examiner compared Gray's neck injury to those suffered by someone who dives into a too-shallow pool of water and said that the injury was most likely caused by a sharp deceleration of the police van.

Highlighting mine.
He may have injured himself by standing up...meaning the police failed... by not securing him with a seatbelt.

a reply to: butcherguy

But still the only conclusion made was "high energy injury"

The Baltimore sun also just put out this article with direct quotes from the report.

"at risk for an unsupported fall during acceleration or deceleration of the van."

touch.baltimoresun.com.../-1/article/p2p-83850613/



It looks like they give a few options of how someone in a moving vehicle can get hurt without a seatbelt but that same Baltimore Sun also reported that most of the vans used do not even have seatbelts.

touch.baltimoresun.com.../-1/article/p2p-83508090/

" Because of Gray's death, Llewellyn said, the department is considering adding new features —possibly padded safety bars, traditional seat belts, or a video monitoring system.

In Baltimore County, suspects arrested on the street usually are driven to a precinct in a police cruiser, where they are placed in seat belts, police spokeswoman Elise Armacost said. The county also owns 10 vans that are sometimes used, none of which have seat belts for prisoners, she said."

a reply to: alphastrike101

The police van arrived. The officers put Mr. Gray into the van but did not secure him with a seatbelt, as required by department regulations, Ms. Mosby said.

Did not secure him with a seatbelt, as required by department regulations.
New York Times
If the vans do not have seat belts, they should have refused to put him into such a van.
If a garbage truck with City of Baltimore painted on the side had shown up, would they have thrown him into that?

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: alphastrike101

The police van arrived. The officers put Mr. Gray into the van but did not secure him with a seatbelt, as required by department regulations, Ms. Mosby said.

Did not secure him with a seatbelt, as required by department regulations.
New York Times
If the vans do not have seat belts, they should have refused to put him into such a van.
If a garbage truck with City of Baltimore painted on the side had shown up, would they have thrown him into that?

If I'm not mistaken, the seat belt requirement is relatively new which is why practically all of the paddywagons don't have them. In addition, if it is so easy to injure someone who isn't restrained in these trucks, where are all the reports of injuries from previous occupants? If getting a "nickel ride" is so prevalent as alleged AND it is so easy to cause injury, there must be other cases, no?

a reply to: Edumakated
Try doing a Google search on 'nickel ride'.
I have posted links in other Freddie threads.
It is more prevalent than you might think.

a reply to: butcherguy

I am not sure if the van falls under those regulations.
Different vehicles maybe different regulations is quite possible.

As the department head Llewellyn also brought up that the cruisers do have seatbelts and it is regulation that they be used in that situation.

Ms mosby has already shown that she does not know all the laws and regulations as evident in her argument that the knife Mr gray was arrested for was not illegal under state law however it was in fact illegal under the city law.