My Final Thoughts on Gun Control

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: 3danimator2014
Ok, still has no bearing today.

It certainly does as the intent of the Amendment is still valid.

Whats your point? What, you think you guys with your little guns can go against the might of the army, nacy and air force?

And what do you think? That the Air Force is going to indiscriminantly bomb suburban neighborhoods, the Navy will blockade harbors and the Army will roll tanks down 5th Ave?

Are you SERUIOUSLY expecting to ever form a militis and fight against the govt? Are you insane? or just delusional?

Your rather poor grasp of military history, some of it quite recent, shows that asymetrical warfare stopped the United States military on many occasions.

Do i think thats going to happen? No...but your the one who thinks you guys are going to go to war against the armed forces one day. id love to see that, tens of thousands of people with absolutely NO ciombat skills fighting against a better armed (by far), better trained (by far) foe. Wow...i bet the tyranical government would sh*t itself...Oh no! Another wave of rednecks with guns and little to no training! (im not saying all gun owners are rednecks before you guys jump on me)

LOL

Please tell me when in modern times what you are saying has ever happened

originally posted by: 3danimator2014

Do i think thats going to happen? No...but your the one who thinks you guys are going to go to war against the armed forces one day.

I do not think it is likely and one of the main reasons is the amount of firearms in private citizen's hands.

id love to see that, tens of thousands of people with absolutely NO ciombat skills fighting against a better armed (by far), better trained (by far) foe.

Where did you get your 'tens of thousands' number? There are around 100,000,000 private firearms owners in the United States, even if only 10% take umbrage they well outnumber every branch of the service and all law enforcement personnel combined. You also leave out that there are more veterans than active duty by a large margin as well.

Wow...i bet the tyranical government would sh*t itself...Oh no! Another wave of rednecks with guns and little to no training! (im not saying all gun owners are rednecks before you guys jump on me)

What makes you think private citizens are not trained?

Please tell me when in modern times what you are saying has ever happened

Please tell me how the United States military faired in Iraq and Afghanistan in asymmetrical warfare situations. Is that recent enough for you?

I respect you opinion, and your right to it. But I don't think your position is sustainable. As I said, the back lash is coming. The gun owners of American can either be flexible, or lose everything. I hope it doesn't come to that. I have firearms myself. I have striong childhood memories fo shooting with my Dad. But, these random mass killings will not be tolerated forever. Responsible gun owners can either be part of the solution, or be part of the problem. Just an opinion, not an attack.

a reply to: projectvxn

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: 3danimator2014

Do i think thats going to happen? No...but your the one who thinks you guys are going to go to war against the armed forces one day.

I do not think it is likely and one of the main reasons is the amount of firearms in private citizen's hands.

id love to see that, tens of thousands of people with absolutely NO ciombat skills fighting against a better armed (by far), better trained (by far) foe.

Where did you get your 'tens of thousands' number? There are around 100,000,000 private firearms owners in the United States, even if only 10% take umbrage they well outnumber every branch of the service and all law enforcement personnel combined. You also leave out that there are more veterans than active duty by a large margin as well.

Wow...i bet the tyranical government would sh*t itself...Oh no! Another wave of rednecks with guns and little to no training! (im not saying all gun owners are rednecks before you guys jump on me)

What makes you think private citizens are not trained?

Please tell me when in modern times what you are saying has ever happened

Please tell me how the United States military faired in Iraq and Afghanistan in asymmetrical warfare situations. Is that recent enough for you?

i thought you were talking about it happening in the US mate. Not around teh world. Im aware of it happening around the world. Thing is that they were willing to die for their freedom and country. I can assure you that the majority of americans are untrained and not willing to what the arabs and others have done. Ill say it again. The right to bear arms has ZERO relevance in the US in 2015.

And i think its laughable that you are using the INFINITESMALY small chance of a tyranical govt takein gover the US as an excuse to not control guns and save lives.

originally posted by: 3danimator2014
i thought you were talking about it happening in the US mate. Not around teh world. Im aware of it happening around the world.

I am and I made it clear I think it will not happen due to the deterrence that an armed civilian population affords, just as the Second Amendment was instituted to accommodate.

Thing is that they were willing to die for their freedom and country.

And we are not?

I can assure you that the majority of americans are untrained and not willing to what the arabs and others have done. Ill say it again.

Why do you need a majority? A very small portion of the Iraqi/Afghani population stymied the United States military and they were obviously not nearly as well trained.

The right to bear arms has ZERO relevance in the US in 2015.

Your appalling and naïve understanding of history and military engagements says otherwise.

And i think its laughable that you are using the INFINITESMALY small chance of a tyranical govt takein gover the US as an excuse to not control guns and save lives.

Straw man. It is not a 'tyrannical govt takein gover the US(sic)', it is the government becoming more tyrannical, either slowly or by rapid design.


It is quite telling that you avoid answering my questions about how asymmetrical warfare has fared against the full might of the United States military and how that military would be rather ineffective engaging its own citizens in an internal conflict or struggle.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: 3danimator2014
i thought you were talking about it happening in the US mate. Not around teh world. Im aware of it happening around the world.

I am and I made it clear I think it will not happen due to the deterrence that an armed civilian population affords, just as the Second Amendment was instituted to accommodate.

Thing is that they were willing to die for their freedom and country.

And we are not?

I can assure you that the majority of americans are untrained and not willing to what the arabs and others have done. Ill say it again.

Why do you need a majority? A very small portion of the Iraqi/Afghani population stymied the United States military and they were obviously not nearly as well trained.

The right to bear arms has ZERO relevance in the US in 2015.

Your appalling and naïve understanding of history and military engagements says otherwise.

And i think its laughable that you are using the INFINITESMALY small chance of a tyranical govt takein gover the US as an excuse to not control guns and save lives.

Straw man. It is not a 'tyrannical govt takein gover the US(sic)', it is the government becoming more tyrannical, either slowly or by rapid design.


It is quite telling that you avoid answering my questions about how asymmetrical warfare has fared against the full might of the United States military and how that military would be rather ineffective engaging its own citizens in an internal conflict or struggle.

Im not answering your question because its irrelevant. There will NEVER be a time when anyone in the US will wage a war on the government as we have seen in other countries. It just wont happen. And im not going to bite. You are trying to make this sound bigger and more imoprtant than it is. Its a relic of the past. The USA isnt Syria/North Korea/Egypt/Bolivia etc...and to try to pretend that you guys wil EVER have the struggles that they have/had is laughable. And i know why you are doing it, to tell yourself that "this is the reason why we say no to gun control.

The discussion is much simpler than you are giving it credit. There are too many guns in the hands of nut jobs in the States and gun control is an issue that you will have to face up to whether you like it or not.

originally posted by: 3danimator2014
Im not answering your question because its irrelevant.

That fact that you do not answer it displays your underlying bias and inability to address the larger, more strategic and political reasons for an armed populace.

I am sure everyone in Syria thought there would never be an issue until there was. To claim that a nation is immune for possible collapse shows a profound and childlike understanding of history.

And the discussion is quite simple, the government cannot remove our right to bear arms (and other rights) without fear of themselves being removed.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: 3danimator2014
Im not answering your question because its irrelevant.

That fact that you do not answer it displays your underlying bias and inability to address the larger, more strategic and political reasons for an armed populace.

I am sure everyone in Syria thought there would never be an issue until there was. To claim that a nation is immune for possible collapse shows a profound and childlike understanding of history.

And the discussion is quite simple, the government cannot remove our right to bear arms (and other rights) without fear of themselves being removed.

The USA is not Syria. You will never have a despot leader as democracy is firmly established in your country. Can you really not see that?

originally posted by: 3danimator2014

The USA is not Syria. You will never have a despot leader as democracy is firmly established in your country. Can you really not see that?

Are you ignorantly stating that democracies have never failed?

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Of course not. But the one in the US has too many democratic procedures in place for it to fail that drastically. Sure you had it in small doses like when Bush stole the election...but get back to me when any president refuses to leave office after 8 years lol

The right to bear arms is a relic and should be scrapped. I dont give a sh*t, im in the Uk, but i bet the familes of all those killed over there sure do.

originally posted by: 3danimator2014
Of course not. But the one in the US has too many democratic procedures in place for it to fail that drastically. Sure you had it in small doses like when Bush stole the election...but get back to me when any president refuses to leave office after 8 years lol

There does not have to be a Constitutional Crisis, a la a President not stepping down, to create a scenario where the citizen's rights are placed in jeopardy. A good article on internal dangers to democracies can be found here.

The right to bear arms is a relic and should be scrapped. I dont give a sh*t, im in the Uk, but i bet the familes of all those killed over there sure do.

You obviously do give one since you interjected yourself into this thread and made your irrelevant opinion known to all. This is our internal political issue to have a dialogue over and I frankly find foreigners opining's to be superfluous.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: 3danimator2014
Of course not. But the one in the US has too many democratic procedures in place for it to fail that drastically. Sure you had it in small doses like when Bush stole the election...but get back to me when any president refuses to leave office after 8 years lol

There does not have to be a Constitutional Crisis, a la a President not stepping down, to create a scenario where the citizen's rights are placed in jeopardy. A good article on internal dangers to democracies can be found here.

The right to bear arms is a relic and should be scrapped. I dont give a sh*t, im in the Uk, but i bet the familes of all those killed over there sure do.

This is our internal political issue to have a dialogue over and I frankly find foreigners opining's to be superfluous.

Typical yank mentality.

You are an american cliche, kudos

crimepreventionresearchcenter.org...

When will people start using common sense and realize that weapon bans only affect law-abiding citizens and creates more victims in the long run.

originally posted by: 3danimator2014
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Typical yank mentality.

You are an american cliche, kudos.

And you have demonstrated a rock-headed inability to address history and the facts. What kind of cliché does that make you? An ostrich?

I've been reading this stupid threat for 5 pages and it's only gotten progressively more stupid as time goes on. I've always been rather interested in this topic but not the debate because people on the "Come and take em" side seem so hard headed it's unbelievably. Then you listen to the people on the side I think I'm on and I want to strangle myself. I'm glad I don't have to deal with such things where I live...

In all honesty I'm not sure what the answer is anymore for the U.S. I get the whole historical significance of having an armed populace but then again I can see that when that made sense was when an armed populace could take on their government. Such was the case during the revolutionary war with the British. Such was that at the time the British could not afford to really fight a war on a continent so far away, but in modern time the American government is not going to collapse no matter how well armed the population is, unless they get their hands and some fighter jets and a wack load of nukes, so I don't see the point of all the guns, the well armed populace thing was never for fighting criminals as far as I can see. The British aren't coming, nor the Chinese or Russians or who ever else might be seen as the enemy and the only ones that could stop them anyways is the military...

I don't know, I'm not even sure I care anymore, the debate will always be side tracked by "Lets get rid of the flag cause... ya... that will make racists think twice!" For some reason it just reminds me of south park and the whole "Took our Jerbs" thing with a bunch of people getting into big gay piles thinking that will stop the future, nothing gets addressed and nothing ever will as long as no one is willing to seriously reflect on whats gone wrong and I don't think anyone in the states has the balls to do that.

So in the mean time keep shouting "come and take em!" into the wind because no one is listening and no one is coming, it's just you, your lonely self hoping that one day someone might be coming so you can make the point you have so longed to make. No ones coming...

a reply to: 3danimator2014

Yes...of course its the people who do the shooting....and what do you think will happen if people dont have access to firearms so easily? Less shootings!! Hooray!

Explain Chicago.

Gun stores are not to operate anywhere near Chicago city limits. You need a Firearms Owners ID card to purchase a weapon in Illinois, and ammunition in the state is tightly controlled. Still Chicago is a gun control Mecca and people with ill intent continue to get firearms and continue to murder each other in gang violence despite the best efforts of the gun control crowd.

California is the national king of statewide gun control. Violence there is staggering. Gangs run the streets and the LAPD alone is akin to a military organization. Since the 1920s gun control has been given its chance to work. It hasn't.

Since Jim Crow gun control has been used to keep minorities from defending themselves from oppression by the majority. The intent of gun control in this country has not changed. Gun control isn't about guns, if it were they'd disarm police too. But they don't. Gun control is about controlling the people. You take away liberty's teeth, you take away liberty.

You should be held mildly accountable. You and every gun nut who clings on to a passage in the bill of rights that has absolutely ZERO relevence in 2015 are partly responsible and you should feel guilty.

No I shouldn't, and I don't.

Every person is responsible for their actions.

The problem with folks who think like you is that you believe in mass punishment based on the notion that the 2nd Amendment is somehow no longer relevant. This mentality is what has been and continues to erode the 1st Amendment. This mentality is what erodes the 4th and 8th amendments. Collectivism is what is destroying the rights of the individual to favor the rights of monolithic groups and to ascribe rights to governments that they are not entitled to. Mob rule. Folks like you continue to cheer it on and continue to ask for more of it, and then you complain when they censor the internet, or take your kids because of your beliefs, or arrest you because you have a sharp knife in your kitchen drawer.

By refusing to even entertain the topic of gun control, you left the door open for this to happen.

Gun control has been entertained in this country to the detriment of generations of Americans for a very long time. Gun control in America is nothing new. Its an experiment over a century old with no discernible positive effects for anyone but power brokers.

Answer me something and im being serious...since you say we are all responsible for our own actions...should i be allowed to get hold of some Plutonium to play around with? After all, its not the deadly isotopes that kill people, its man...and if i promise to use it carefully, should i be allowed to have some? Serious question

This is not a serious question. Its a childish strawman argument for something you have little grasp on and I will not entertain it.

originally posted by: projectvxn

After watching those two videos you should have a sense of how I feel about my right to keep and bear arms. For my security, that of my family, and extended to my fellow citizens.

Every time a nutjob shoots up a place, like recently in South Carolina, guns are immediately vilified as the root cause of the problem. Nevermind that this took place in a "gun free zone". Nevermind that murder is already illegal. Nevermind that a background check has NEVER stopped anyone from committing a crime. Nevermind any of that.

My rights are not contingent on your feelings. I don't care what you think about my right to bear arms because you don't like what criminals do with guns. Guess what? Neither do I.

Your idea of prevention is to ban guns. Nevermind that only people who follow laws will be affected. Your idea is to violate my 4th Amendment rights in order to exercise my 2nd Amendment rights. Nevermind you complain about things like the PATRIOT Act, or the NDAA.

Your idea is to cut the horns off the gazelle in a misguided effort to protect a herd threatened by WOLVES.

I'm not falling victim to this. I'm not debating this BS anymore. I'm not participating in gun control threads beyond this one any longer. I am not going to repeat myself. The Coiled Rattlesnake has warned, and warned, and warned not to TREAD ON ME. I am not the only one who sees it.

If you want my guns, come and take them. End of story. I don't care about your laws, your feelings, or your BS statistics. I'm done talking. At some point a decision has to be made about what course we want, not just for ourselves as individuals, but as a Nation. We were forged in the conflagration of revolution against tyranny, confiscatory policies, abuse, and state sponsored theft. If you want to ban my only means of effective self defense and you don't care what of my other rights you violate to do it, then you are the enemy.

You, the gun grabber, are a coward. You want to ban all Americans from owning guns. You want them confiscated and you want to send men with guns to get it done. You want to see your fellow Americans rounded up, shot, and property confiscated because you don't like guns. You want law abiding Americans to turn in their guns, to give up their property without due process, at the whim of bureaucrats, corrupt politicians, and their jack boot enforcers, just to satisfy your misguided notion of who is actually responsible for your safety.

The debate, on my end, is over.

You want my guns, you'd better bring yours.

What a load of old crap.

You say guns give people security? I say BS.

This is just like saying if every country had their own nukes the world would be a safer place! Well it doesn't take a genius to realise that statement is utter crap.

In a country where guns are so prevalent you have to expect bad things to happen, just like they generally do in america quite often

I'm from the UK where we have plenty of maniacs and idiots but more importantly, we don't have guns for sale in supermarkets, and guess what, we don't have anywhere near the level of gun crime that the US has.

Why are you so afraid of someone taking your arms away from you???

Either way you're worrying about nothing because in america money rules and too many people make a ton of money selling guns. So even though you might see Obama coming out giving a grand speech on how guns are bad for society, he knows full well he'll never do anything about it because his corporate buddies are too busy getting filthy rich to care about a few lives lost here and there.

originally posted by: DAVID64
a reply to: AlexJowls
I take it you're anti gun and believe that the govt/police can always protect you.

No. But, nor am I paranoid, thinking someone is out to kill me every second of my waking life. And even if I did have a firearm, I wouldn't conduct my life through its iron sights -- the only reasonable method for getting the first shot off against someone with the intent to shoot me. That is, I'm not a 'Call of Dimwit' reared dimwit.

Having said that, and to be fair, I do concede I do not have the misfortune of my parents having migrated to the U.S., and thus I'm in the privileged position of being able walk the streets without fear of being shot dead for no other reason than the nation I happen to be living in. Woe is you.

originally posted by: AlexJowls

originally posted by: DAVID64
a reply to: AlexJowls
I take it you're anti gun and believe that the govt/police can always protect you.

No. But, nor am I paranoid, thinking someone is out to kill me every second of my waking life. And even if I did have a firearm, I wouldn't conduct my life through its iron sights -- the only reasonable method for getting the first shot off against someone with the intent to shoot me. That is, I'm not a 'Call of Dimwit' reared dimwit.

Having said that, and to be fair, I do concede I do not have the misfortune of my parents having migrated to the U.S., and thus I'm in the privileged position of being able walk the streets without fear of being shot dead for no other reason than the nation I happen to be living in. Woe is you.

It is with my most sincere wishes that you may pass through this life without knowing what is really out there. I have witnessed it; I have been it. If you are fortunate enough to not see or ever see it, I am truly happy for you; just leave people like me and my rights alone as they apparently do not concern you.

originally posted by: jamespond

originally posted by: projectvxn

After watching those two videos you should have a sense of how I feel about my right to keep and bear arms. For my security, that of my family, and extended to my fellow citizens.

Every time a nutjob shoots up a place, like recently in South Carolina, guns are immediately vilified as the root cause of the problem. Nevermind that this took place in a "gun free zone". Nevermind that murder is already illegal. Nevermind that a background check has NEVER stopped anyone from committing a crime. Nevermind any of that.

My rights are not contingent on your feelings. I don't care what you think about my right to bear arms because you don't like what criminals do with guns. Guess what? Neither do I.

Your idea of prevention is to ban guns. Nevermind that only people who follow laws will be affected. Your idea is to violate my 4th Amendment rights in order to exercise my 2nd Amendment rights. Nevermind you complain about things like the PATRIOT Act, or the NDAA.

Your idea is to cut the horns off the gazelle in a misguided effort to protect a herd threatened by WOLVES.

I'm not falling victim to this. I'm not debating this BS anymore. I'm not participating in gun control threads beyond this one any longer. I am not going to repeat myself. The Coiled Rattlesnake has warned, and warned, and warned not to TREAD ON ME. I am not the only one who sees it.

If you want my guns, come and take them. End of story. I don't care about your laws, your feelings, or your BS statistics. I'm done talking. At some point a decision has to be made about what course we want, not just for ourselves as individuals, but as a Nation. We were forged in the conflagration of revolution against tyranny, confiscatory policies, abuse, and state sponsored theft. If you want to ban my only means of effective self defense and you don't care what of my other rights you violate to do it, then you are the enemy.

You, the gun grabber, are a coward. You want to ban all Americans from owning guns. You want them confiscated and you want to send men with guns to get it done. You want to see your fellow Americans rounded up, shot, and property confiscated because you don't like guns. You want law abiding Americans to turn in their guns, to give up their property without due process, at the whim of bureaucrats, corrupt politicians, and their jack boot enforcers, just to satisfy your misguided notion of who is actually responsible for your safety.

The debate, on my end, is over.

You want my guns, you'd better bring yours.

What a load of old crap.

You say guns give people security? I say BS.

This is just like saying if every country had their own nukes the world would be a safer place! Well it doesn't take a genius to realise that statement is utter crap.

In a country where guns are so prevalent you have to expect bad things to happen, just like they generally do in america quite often

I'm from the UK where we have plenty of maniacs and idiots but more importantly, we don't have guns for sale in supermarkets, and guess what, we don't have anywhere near the level of gun crime that the US has.

Why are you so afraid of someone taking your arms away from you???

Either way you're worrying about nothing because in america money rules and too many people make a ton of money selling guns. So even though you might see Obama coming out giving a grand speech on how guns are bad for society, he knows full well he'll never do anything about it because his corporate buddies are too busy getting filthy rich to care about a few lives lost here and there.

You are from the UK; you have a culture of subservience to a stuffed crown. Nuff said.