Is it time we worked together yet on our "gun problem"?

originally posted by: khnum

So your point is that for the number of guns in the country the level of gun crime is quite low and that there isn't any problem that murder still occurs elsewhere and that no amount legislation or restriction can ever stop a Virginia tech or similar at least you have argued that calmly and unemotionally.All I know is that in my country there has been no mass murders since 1998 when our current laws were introduced what we did here works for here as for what happens in your country your correct it will most likely be nothing.

Have you ever heard of correlation does not mean causation. One of the most difficult things to do in science is find causation out of many correlations. As example, there was a famous study that looked to see if violence on TV caused violence in children, and for many years we were up in arms with the data that showed kids who watched violent TV shows were more violent. The data was correct but the correlation was not. In the end it was determined that naturally violent kids also liked to watch violent TV shows and so that skewed the data in a false direction.

So my point here is have you ever thought that Americans are just more naturally violent by culture and society norms than the people in your country? If that is the case then whether it is a gun, baseball bat, knife, car or whatever we will do it.

1998 sounds like Australia...so

2014

Eight brothers and sisters aged from 18-months to 15 years old have been found stabbed to death in a house in Australia, prompting the nation’s leader Tony Abbott to lament that “these are trying days for our country”.

If you are, lets say Denmark... we have cities with more population than that whole country, so kind of hard to suggest there is anything similar between them and America.

originally posted by: khnum
a reply to: Answer

So your point is that for the number of guns in the country the level of gun crime is quite low and that there isn't any problem that murder still occurs elsewhere and that no amount legislation or restriction can ever stop a Virginia tech or similar at least you have argued that calmly and unemotionally.All I know is that in my country there has been no mass murders since 1998 when our current laws were introduced what we did here works for here as for what happens in your country your correct it will most likely be nothing.

Crime was already on the decline in the UK before the sweeping gun bans went into effect. There were VERY few mass shootings in the UK prior to the laws being passed... yet there was still a mass shooting in Cumbria, England in 2010 where 12 people were killed so one could argue that the laws did not have the intended effect. Alas, your claim about no mass murders since 1998 is woefully incorrect.

Guns were never as deeply ingrained in UK culture as they are here.

Overall murder rates in the UK are still ridiculously high and some sources have solid evidence that the murder rate is higher than the U.S. and the crime problems, including those involving guns, are severely understated by the UK government. The UK seems to go to great lengths to convince people that their gun bans are working.

The cities in the U.S. where most murders occur are poverty-stricken areas dominated by gang violence. Most of the reported murders are thug-on-thug violence in the inner cities. The media ignores those numbers for some reason and only focuses on mass shootings or any violence that can be painted as racially-inspired... as long as it's white on black violence.

My friend's brother (white) was beaten to death by two black men a few weeks ago for no good reason. It was labeled a robbery but they didn't take his wallet or the money in his wallet. That story did not make the national news. A doctor driving to a pistol competition in the same town was held at gun-point by two black men and forced to drive them to an ATM while they told him what they were going to do to his wife after they were done with him... luckily he used his own gun to kill one of the men and force the other to flee. That story did not make national news.

The "mass shootings" get everyone's attention because they're highly-publicized atrocities committed by insane people. They account for a statistically insignificant percentage of overall murder rates. Those shootings have happened during periods of stricter gun control in the U.S. and they have not increased as gun regulations have been relaxed... therefore, it's obvious that passing more gun laws will not affect that particular problem. There's an old line "never let a tragedy go to waste" and it's obvious that the anti-gun crowd chooses to dance in the blood of the victims every time a mass shooting occurs. It happens every single time and they clearly have no interest in discussing the root causes of that sort of violence.

We can argue all night about the underlying causes of mass murder but it's hard to blame access to guns when all facts are considered.

a reply to: Xtrozero

I think most Americans are hardwired not to kill people, as with the example you cite in my country most of these mass murders are by seriously psychologically ill people.

What might be at play in your country is that it is much more competitive than mine with a more distinct winner and loser culture, this may manifest negatively in say poorer socio economic areas but that is just speculation.

What isnt speculation is that the first step in resolving an issue is to admit there is a problem and that seems to be a problem,now this problem is probably not firearms -is it broken families,gang mentality,occult practices,greed,ignorance,selfishness',anti psychotics,ssris ,who knows- but until somebody does some serious research into what societal illness is to be addressed this these mass killings will continue to happen time and time again.

a reply to: Answer

read my above post to xtrozero I may of met you half way I am sorry about your friends brother I have two Danish friends who travelled the entire world, where did they get mugged, Albert park in my city, crime and violence happens everywhere Im sorry for your friends loss you can just be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

originally posted by: khnum
a reply to: Answer

read my above post to xtrozero I may of met you half way

You make good points.

If we can first determine the root cause of mass shootings, THEN we can discuss steps to address the problem. Knee-jerk reactions and calls for gun bans are certainly not the answer.

One can easily point to the "war on drugs" as proof that making something illegal does not solve problems and typically creates entirely different problems. If the government would put as much energy and money into finding the root causes of drug addiction as they do into trying to fight this ridiculous "war," we might see some actual results.

a reply to: Bobaganoosh

What happened to this thread? Exactly what I thought would happen. Instead of the anti firearm people joining us pro firearm people, demanding our current laws get enforced to their maximum extent, showing would be criminals that harsh penalties will result in their deeds.

We get multiple pages of people that can't comprehend what I wrote in my OP, accusing me of wanting to ban firearms or give up our constitutional rights.

We have multiple pages of guns are bad and we need more laws to combat the current laws that aren't enforced.

And we have quite a bit of, certain guns are bad because certain people have ZERO understanding of said firearms.

It's sad really, guess status quo is good enough for the majority of anti firearm folks, as evidenced by this thread.

a reply to: KawRider9

Maybe it would help to change the term "anti firearm". Guns are not the problem. People are.

a reply to: KawRider9

with violence in America at a very low level, and falling sharply, i am shocked to see it being such a cotentious matter.

Guns affect very few people in any given day/week/month. But the craptacular state of affairs that our nation is in...it effects all of us. Each minute of each day.

I suspect that if we would watch less news, we would all find ourselves much less amped up over this topic.

a reply to: MOMof3

Exactly, and no new firearm related laws will put an end to what ails us.

A MAJOR start would be enforcing our current laws to their maximum extent. Knowing that a crime carries harsh penalties might have an effect, if they were enforced in the first place.

A little example for the class:

When I turned 21, I was a partying fool and got a DUI three months in. I was fined $300.00, spent a year on probation(meant nothing) did 12 hours of a class I didn't pay attention to at all and lost my license for three months... I never stopped drinking and driving, as I really had no punishment. Eight months later, BLAMMO, another DUI. Only this time the punishment was VERY severe.

Thousands in fines, years of seeing a probation officer twice month, random home inspections for booze and drugs, No DL for years, over a hundred hours of classes, it was a major hassle and VERY costly. It also taught me to never drink and drive again. I still enjoy my beer, but I haven't driven after drinking in damn near twenty years.

The slap on the wrist I got on the first DUI did nothing to thwart my actions. The ass kicking I got the second time woke me up BIG time.

a reply to: KawRider9

I appreciate that you are seeking answers. Good luck. But the NRA has all lawmakers, local and national, firmly in their coffers. No existing laws will be fully enforced and no new ones will be considered. My idea is to use the civil courts where applicable. Like this last case, if true, the family knew he was a angry young man and someone bought him a weapon. Sue.

originally posted by: MOMof3
But the NRA has all lawmakers, local and national, firmly in their coffers. No existing laws will be fully enforced and no new ones will be considered.

What fantasy planet do you live on that you think the NRA influences every municipality and jurisdiction in the enforcement of laws?

My idea is to use the civil courts where applicable. Like this last case, if true, the family knew he was a angry young man and someone bought him a weapon. Sue.

Still lying about this, huh? Even after it was pointed out to you several times that the family did not purchase him a firearm.

I didn't read all responses but but first reaction is to say "yes" ... step 1 has to be: get all (I'd settle for almost all) guns out of criminals hands & off the streets.

Only then should we start restricting what law abiding citizens can own.

originally posted by: MOMof3
But the NRA has all lawmakers, local and national, firmly in their coffers. No existing laws will be fully enforced

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

First, you grossly overestimate the power of the NRA.

Second, the NRA has been pushing for years to have harsher punishment for criminals who commit crimes with firearms. The NRA has been saying all along "enforce the existing laws if you want change."

Please get a clue. Your crap about suing the family is also wrong because the information has been updated and now we see that they didn't buy the gun.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: KawRider9

with violence in America at a very low level, and falling sharply, i am shocked to see it being such a cotentious matter.

Guns affect very few people in any given day/week/month. But the craptacular state of affairs that our nation is in...it effects all of us. Each minute of each day.

I suspect that if we would watch less news, we would all find ourselves much less amped up over this topic.

You're right. It's the media's fault.

Blood sells and they want all of their viewers believing that the country is coming apart at the seams and you can't walk out your door without bullets flying over your head.

The anti-gun folks love it and they never let a tragedy go to waste. They completely ignore the inner-city violence that occurs every day and choose to only focus on highly-publicized mass shootings. If stopping murder was really their intent, they'd be talking about all of the black-on-black gang related violence that's responsible for nearly all murders in the nation but, instead, they wait for a white person to commit a mass shooting before they start barking about gun control.

43 people were killed in Baltimore in the month of May but did you hear anyone calling for gun control? NO. One person shoots 9 people in a church and the whole country goes bananas demanding that something be done about "gun violence."

It's pathetically transparent.

a reply to: Bobaganoosh

Perhaps people do not agree with you that big pharma is the cause of these incidents. Of course, people with mental issues are most likely on some kind of drug(s) as part of a treatment plan. But to come to the conclusion that the drugs are what is causing the mass murders we are witnessing is a giant leap. Not everyone who commits mass murder is on some kind of drugs. Mass murder existed long before the drugs in question did and will continue long after they are gone.

Even if every single person who committed a mass murder like the ones we have seen recently was on some kind of medication to treat mental illness that does not mean the drugs caused the murders. I would be willing to bet every single one of the killers also ate fast food. That doesn't mean fast food was the reason behind the murders but it is a commonality.

The media, the politicians, the protesters all are crying out for tougher gun laws every time something like this happens. You cant have missed that. For this thread to reflect what is the rallying cry of the liberal masses in response to these incidents is reflecting the natural course of the deliberation.

Personally, I think we have too many gun laws now and we need to address the human element in these crimes because that is where the only true solution will be found. If my posts led you to believe otherwise, then I apologize for not being more clear. This is a people issue, not a tool used issue. To treat it as anything other than that is to derail any genuine attempt at finding a resolution.

a reply to: Answer

I found an article that said his father gave him the money and knew he purchased the weapon. Sue, sue, sue, ruin their lives.

originally posted by: MOMof3
a
I found an article that said his father gave him the money and knew he purchased the weapon.

Link the article.

originally posted by: MOMof3
a reply to: Answer

I found an article that said his father gave him the money and knew he purchased the weapon. Sue, sue, sue, ruin their lives.

I hope your kids never do anything stupid and someone sues you in response.

Your mentality is what's ruining this country.

I've already told you that the case will be thrown out of court and the victims' families will still be stuck paying the attorney.

It's more likely, though, that they wouldn't be able to find an attorney to take their case.

You started this nonsense by saying the family bought the gun, now that you realized you were wrong, you still want to blame the family just so there's someone to "sue sue sue." Pathetic.

Do you not think that maybe the shooter's family is grieving as well? They have to live with this for the rest of their lives... I'd say that's more than enough punishment.

a reply to: Answer

No. I think they are probably racists too, and their son is still alive.

I don't care what you think or believe about me.

originally posted by: MOMof3


I don't care what you think or believe about me.

I'm not asking you to care. I'm asking you to think for 2 seconds before you post a reply.