The Origin of Evil - A Thought Experiment

One of my several investigations of the truth led me to the Judeo-Christian concept of Zion, or the Reformed World.

I found there were many historical refereces to a "perfect race of men" who lived shortly after the creation of man. The universal link between these perfect races and perfect peoples was that they retained spiritual power, and developed their spiritual selves above their physical bodies.

Far from a Utopian dream: The nature of the human mind allows for such a possibility. For instance, if two gentlemen share the same intellect, they will love one another and be brothers. Because their focus in life is spiritual they would not become envious of one another and compete in the fashion of the world and animals.

Only youths and children are like this, and this is why Jesus reminded us to be more like them. Youths and children do not any other motivation than love, or play, or friendship. Their virtue in these matters is full, and attended by the Grace of God.

The glory comes when those children grow into adults who come to understand the fullness of these virtues, and retain their practise their whole lives. Only then can a whole society be uplifted.

Lad, I am thinking in terms of a sudden uplift of a whole civiliztion, and the formation of a whole new thing by the concordance of the forces from above, and us upon the earth. For this I am called a "Beloved Emmisary."

This would square to the efforts of the Christian Spirits, and their Christ, and would reveal the inheritance of those before Christ, who are worthy of honor and glory.

I desire to refine the nations into this new pure form, and burn the dross away. A golden age, made from the fine gold of the ages, poured into the crucible of the Christ, and poured into the form of the perfect BenBen [The Crown Of Civilization].

The Ben-Ben Stone

This new headstone is called the "Perfect Temple". It is amazing to men, because they will not have seen it before. They will know in their hearts the divinity of this invention, but most will not be able to express their dignity towards its revelation.

This world's True New Order is nothing like the plan of these wicked old men! It is a glorious gift from the Godhead, and upheld by the righteous angels, and their love for men.

See Shorty, Love is central to the foudnation of our Great New Race. We are the forefathers of it, little one. We are the progenitors, architects, and prophets of this new civilization, because we are born to its understanding and development. For our service in these matters, we are granted the wages of a high priest, and have the fortunate gift of God.

I desire nothing but to deliver such gifts to my own people, those who speak my own tongue, and make them a great people. I desire to reform our Western World, and make it a better occupation for our youth to consider. Not one child says, "I shall be a politician," for he knows there is shame and indecency among such men.

Let him instead be a citizen, and wear the common laurel of gold and leaves, for such is our glory at this time. This glory may develop further, and include such things as the stars, the worlds, and the orders of such magnitude.

Sound fun? I thought it was better than materialsm, so I refrained from my culture and hid myself from the world so that I might receive it in purity.

Arky

[edit on 27-12-2004 by Arkaleus]

Originally posted by Arkaleus
If you were to remove all the evil people and things from this world, would evil cease to be?

Yes because human nature is dark.... or what you call evil...........

All the sins of man are actually human nature's greed, lust, desire, ect....
All wrapped into one ball called selfishness.... me me me is human nature... Animals go by this as well....

The animal kingdom shows no remorse, a male lion goes to mate with several other women a year, he cares not about the offspring, he's just operating off instinct.. which of course helps in the reproduction of more lions...

Before religions and universal communication, humans were barbaric, raping women, knocking them up and taking off, killing their offspring, ect...

The more deep you go Ark, the more confusing you are going to make things...

This is an interesting interview from Marilyn Manson... A pretty brilliant individual imo... here's an excerpt.

Some of the scariest buildings I�ve ever been in are churches. They�re beautiful in their ominous architecture. And I think that image has caused more pain and suffering than a swastika or the hammer and sickle. And those images are taboo, while the crucifix will always be considered holy. But think of how many people died in the name of that image.
Manson Interview on Beliefnet

Marilyn Manson?

Sorry TrueLies, but I don't know that I am interested in what Mr. Manson has to say. . .about anything.

There is a strong tendency for people to associate animal traits with human beings. That is a shameful insult to the nature of man, because it makes him nothing greater than an articulate beast. While I agree that man's body is the same substance as the animals, his mind is far greater. I would go further and say that the animal mind is also superior to its body, but I will not go into that here.

It's rather like saying: "We all have smelly backsides, so we are all apes at heart."

It's not true. Having bodies does not make us animals. "We" are more than our bodies, we are more than our physical selves. A full and healthy human being has a sense of his place in the universe of thought and spirit, he sees how his non-physical self affects others and his environment. A profane person has no sense of the subtle universe, or he does not improve his way in it. This is why I loathe profane persons - They are are inherently mischievious and evil. They either are too ignorant to see, thus bringing harm to themselves and others by senselessness, or they see and have chosen a deceptive and evil path and debar others from the path of gnosis.

We are surrounded by criminals and fools, and heaven chides us when we stray into either camp. Our business is greater than the world's business, and our mind is better than the world's mind. Those who follow a spiritual path should agree among themselves, and their natures should compliment one another. Some of us are more radical than others, some of us are truly revolutionary.

This world is moved by the deeds and thoughts of our spiritual race, in the past as well as today. It is from our Spiritual Mind that mankind has been elevated from the huts and caves and tribes, not from the material consumption of meat and the carving of bone and stones.

Man, know your true nature, and where your spirit is from, and leave behind the silly world and all its madness. It doesn't know where it is going, it just makes a lot of noise and smoke on the way.

Arky

In the bible, if I'm not misstaken, it was told that people went the way of "knowlege of good and evil".

Then how could you learn, for example, "apples and plums" if plums are removed? How would we know that something is white, if there won't be a dark background.

But then again what is good and what is evil and how did this start?
Supposedly at first people lived in "paradise" on earth, but then they started judging - "this is good, therefor anything else is bad! If someone doesn't see things the same way as I go, he is evil and should be eliminated!"

Aren't we makeing up evil, by labeling "evil" on everything that does not fit into our nerrow understanding of good?

As an old prophecy said, people went two ways - the way of "imitation", where one imitates the one before him, and the way of "state", where one looks and sees the world in reality, not through the prism of his believes. And, when the time comes, both this ways would blend into the way of "Truth".

Where did the way of "imitation" lead us? How it comes that even animals had sensed the tsunami, but people did not?

Good and evil are not just abstracts - they are actual forces. They do not need external things to compare them to. Light does not require darkness to exist. Darkeness is not its own creation. Darkness is matter than has degraded its intellectual compnent and cannot form itself properly. Evil is what occurs when darkness tries to establish its will in this universe. Evil descended from the light, it dis not come from the Royal Birth of the Light, nor is Satan the brother of God.

Darkness requires light to exist, but Light does not require darkness to exist.

Darkness is impotent, and requires the offspring of matter and Light to feed upon. It subsists upon the material universe, which it did not create. Light does not subsist upon the material universe, but is self-supported and whole. The two are not equal, they are not even comparable.

That is why people who are Light do not feed off of one another, but rather add to one antoher. People who dwell in darkness steal from other living beings, and cannot sustain their forms after they die. Evil is the failure to accept the Truth, because those liars desire their own will. These beings are not Good, so they refuse to accept the judgment against them, so they flee into the darkness, and from there desire to establish their kingdom. Thus the world was fragmented between the different rulers, who have endured thus far.

Their kingdom over this world is only temporary - they will not be able to escape the inevitable judgment against all those who deny the absolute truth and goodness of the Father.

Arky

blahblahblahmentalmasterbationblahblahblahdroolblahblahblah

The title of this thread is: The Origin of Evil - A Thought Experiment.

The origin of Evil, and Good is Human Nature; Specifically it's origin is in our Survival Instincts. Neither Evil nor Good may be removed from our existence. However, there are also no absoulte distinctions - it is all in shades of grey.

What is Evil, and for that matter, what is Good?

Broadly speaking, a society defines and prescribes what is Good and Evil based on preservation, and custom. What was labelled as Bad in one society and time can turn out to be labelled good at a later date and in another society, and vice versa.

Religion has been 'invented' to serve as a Law-Maker, from time immemorial, as we have read, and witnessed. Those who have gone against the teachings of religion have done so only to face dire consequences. As religion will evolve so will the shades of Evil and Good.

As man became more sophisticated he invented Law to define Good and Evil. Thus, God was removed from the Law-Making and Enforcing function. In the Present Era people make and enforce law (and also break the laws), and in the future it may well be man-made machines. Man will define and spell-out law to the machines it has appointed for that function, yet machines too will be programmed to break Laws, thus committing Evil Acts.

Man, I think, may not evolve aand transcend above the Basic Human Nature. So Evil and Good are here to stay even with or without religion, or for that matter even Law because that is our fundamental Human Nature. There will allways be law-abiders and law-breakers. Moreover, if there was no Evil, there would cease to be what we consider and label as Good.

[edit on 2/1/05 by aSEEKER]

Absolutely NOT.

All is not Shades of Gray - that is the philosophy of those who deny the perfect good.

Good does not vanish in the absense of evil - Good is established by itself and does not require an antipode. It's not a subjective moral concept - Good is a independent immortal force that exists in this universe. Perfect good can be conceived, practised, and is superior to darkness and evil in every way.

Those who deny God often speak this way: Good and evil are equals, both are manifestations of human nature and are figments of his subjective judgment. That is nonesense.

Life itself is a force, and it grows great and strong in the presense of good, and it shrinks and dies in the presense of evil. The human mind atrophies in darkness and evil, and it grows wise and strong in the presense of a radiant, good being.

it is a proud, humanist philosophy that makes good and evil the product of human invention. Good and evil are not human, they existed BEFORE the earth was made, they have existed for as long as intelligence has existed in the universe.

It is human arrogance to say that intelligence began on the earth, it is a blind and ignorant statement to say this. Intelligence did not begin on the earth, gentlemen, you need to adjust your philosophies accordingly.

Arkaleus

Originally posted by Arkaleus
All is not Shades of Gray - that is the philosophy of those who deny the perfect good.

Can you give me examples of actions of what "perfect good" is?

Those who deny God often speak this way: Good and evil are equals, both are manifestations of human nature and are figments of his subjective judgment. That is nonesense.

Prove it.

sorry if anything i say has already been said i cbf reading all the posts... but this is what i think

I dont believe there can ever be a perfectly peaceful civilisation.
If there was, a random mutation would occur that would make some1 slightly evil.
This evil person would survive better than the non evil people. cause he would take advantage of everything and spread his evil trait. etc.... it would keep surviving and surviving and then evil would become a mainstream

Its the same thing if there was a totaly evil society.
a peaceful guy would finally turn up due to random DNA mutation and he would always run away from fights and therefore be more likly to survive and he would spread his trait and it would be more successful than the evil trait and then it would keep spread and become mainstream.


i also believe in this.
There is no Darkness. It just exsists in the absence of light (photons)
There is no Cold. It just exsists in the absence of heat

there is no good without evil/there is no evil without good.
if there was no evil and only good. Who would know what good is? there would be no comparisment
vis versa.

i might be wrong
but that what i think

The answer lies at your feet.

A child of 14 months knows not the meaning of good, nor has he understood evil, but he reacts to them. He will cry and become agitated in the presence of evil things and evil actions, and will resist them. He will coo and squeal and rejoice in the presence of good, and carry himself towards it so that he might be with it.

Obviously, the little child has no word for good, or evil, nor does he require the experience of either one to know the other. If he sees a radiant person smiling, he will become radiant and smile too: There is no need to teach this to any child. It is something that is in our spirit and is not taught.

Life comes from something Good that came into being long before this world was formed. It's ways are firmly established as a constant thing in the cosmos. Good has not changed form throughout the eons of time that have passed on this world. The balance of sunlight and warmth, the seasons, the cycles of life -- all of these are good, and fundamentally so. If you were to go to alpha centauri, and settle upon an earth-like world there, good and evil would have the same meaning, there would be no change in its nature.

Truth is always good, and when we speak it we become well and healthy. We become glad within ourselves because there is a force greater than ourselves that loves the truth, and wherever truth exists it manifests itself as joy, or light, or some other aspect that is beneficial to everything in this universe.

Haven't you ever seen the faces of them who are good, and who choose virtue over human confusion? They are full and red, their cheeks are ruddy and their eyes bright, health seems to flow from them and can even enter into other persons. That's because GOOD is associated with an energy or power that really has a will of its own. That energy or power does not require evil to exist, function, or be received by a person.

As I said, when this good power come to a little child, who has no inkling of evil, he recognizes and loves it, and is the better for it. That child need not ever see evil, but will continue to rejoice for as long as he is alive. That's because our minds, our bodies, and our souls were fashioned from Good, and not evil, and evil is alien to us.

Because of wisdom and the need for a complete intellect, we learn about evil by exposure to it. In this era evil still exists on the earth, and it is good that we learn about it, and overcome it. It is a perversion of philosophy to say that evil is part of human nature, when clearly it is not found in little children.

Evil is not part of nature either, it is not from this world. Animals loathe evil, and will complain at it and flee from it. What teaches them this? Intelligence itself is oriented towards the light of good, which is itself an emanation of God.

Evil is not an emanation of God, it is a corruption of intelligence that rose up because of free will. I do not understand the origin of evil, as it is totally foreign to me. Evil is not the equal of good, nor are they part of the same order.

Forgive me, but many of you have learned incorrectly the nature of good and evil. If you carefully examine your position, you will see that you cannot have a balance between good and evil, because they are not of the same nature.

I will explain this again: Evil requires good to exist, because evil cannot generate life. Evil eats the fruits of the creation of good. Anything that requires something else to survive is not equal to that which requires nothing.

Evil people are the same way: They exist within the larger system of life, and require that there be enough order and stability from the good for them to live.

If the world was pure evil, it would degenerate into chaos and life would be extinguished or severely damaged. The same is not true if the world were totally good - Life would expand and multiply, human intellect would become greatly expanded, and our societies would develop to their potentials.

Evil cannot exist in a life form unless that life form retain something of its goodness: It must continue to interact with the systems of life, it must refrain from harming everything around it, or it will eventually destroy itself or be destroyed. Good requires no evil trait, an honest man does not need to lie every once in a while, but a wicked liar needs to tell the truth every now and then.

The two are not equal. Just because evil exists, does not mean it NEEDS to continue to exist. That's like saying, my house has termites, but I'm not going to remove them because they need to eat too. It's silly, and bad husbandry.

Evil is a parasite because it cannot generate life for itself. If you cannot understand that concept, then this topic will forever be a mystery to you.

Intelligence can exist in an in-between state, having some virtue but also some evil traits, but that is due to a lack of intellect and understanding. If I love holy things, but still have envy and malice towards others, then I am imperfect and cannot be called good. That is the nature of most human beings. There is a higher God than them, which they do not understand.

God is the perfect good. God is the author of intelligence, and that is why intelligence reacts so positively to good, and much more to perfect good. Your limited experience as human beings might cloud your understanding of this, but I have seen it. Animals show their full intelligence to a perfect man, while to other humans they withdraw. Little children are the same way. Evil is forever the slave of perfect good, and will be driven and destroyed forever.

Do not give legitimacy to that which has none. Evil is no royal heir, evil is the dung of the universe.

Arkaleus

Originally posted by Arkaleus
The answer lies at your feet.

A child of 14 months knows not the meaning of good, nor has he understood evil, but he reacts to them. He will cry and become agitated in the presence of evil things and evil actions, and will resist them. He will coo and squeal and rejoice in the presence of good, and carry himself towards it so that he might be with it.

So pooping in their pants is evil? Being hungry? Not seeing mom? Really, do you even have any idea of what you are talking about? They cry when they become uncomfortable. Just as I expected, no proof, just more poetry.

Either you lack the observation or the honesty to discuss this matter!

I will refer you to the words of the sages and prophets, if you believe in such wisdom.

No more about that will I say to you!

Arkaleus

(Weird double post deleted. ATS is strange sometimes. . .)

[edit on 3-1-2005 by Arkaleus]