The Origin of Evil - A Thought Experiment

If you were to remove all the evil people and things from this world, would evil cease to be?

If you did this, and evil returned to this world, how did it come about? If all evil was removed, and all corruption was destroyed, and every being who had rejected the light was removed from this world, how could evil again appear in it?

This is a thought experiment, so obviously you don't need to post telling me that such a thing is impossible.

Simply think this way: If the people who do evil things and harbor evil things inside of them were to be whisked off of this world, What would this tell us about the nature and origin of evil? How would it return? What does evil depend upon to exist? What conditions are necessary for the existence of evil in this world?

Arkaleus

[edit on 24-12-2004 by Arkaleus]

Well, my response depends on what you mean by evil. I dont believe morals are absolute, so I dont see things are inherently "right" or "wrong". The closet thing I could compare "evil" to, are things that dont contribute to our survival, I suppose.

So for me, why do we have people in jail? Why do people murder? Steal? Rape? Its a complex subject. I cant begin to cover everything, but my first thought would be from inequality, unfairness. Unfairness, atleast, whatever that means to the person doing things that dont contribute to our survival. Life isnt fair, and not all people are created equal, some people just have # luck their whole lifes, and have to deal with things outside of their control. This shapes them, their personaility, habits, etc. They no longer care about contributing to society, their first priority is to ensure THEIR survival. Can you blame them? Im not sure if this is what you mean, but its what I thought of.

I cant imagine a perfect world, close maybe, but life will never be "fair", thats just the way the cookie crumbles in the jungle, so there will always be concepts of things like evil, and good, and these concepts of things being inherently "right" and inherently "wrong" will always be slapped onto people who dont fit into your perfect little world. We'll call these people evil, without giving much thought to what it means or why were saying it.

No, Evil cannot be eradicated.

Personally, I think Evil stems from our Survival Instincts.

"To survive at any cost...
even at the detriment of others..." ???

Because this is a thought experiment, we don't need to be so picky. Use your own definition of evil. It doesn't matter what you consider to be evil, just remove it from the earth in your thought experiment.

My question is: How does evil come to be? Does it require something to get started? Is it dependent on human beings, or is it a cosmic force older and alien to earth?

That's what I am looking to reveal. It's a thought experiment. I know that evil corrupts living beings the same every time. Evil people degrade and act in pretty much the same way once they fall into it. They have common behaviors, traits, and thoughts. What is the reason for that commonality?

Arky

"Good" and "Evil" are not separate independent entities that exist in and of themselves. You cannot "remove" the evil from everything. Evil has no tangible form. You simply cannot grasp hold of something that doesn't exist except as an abstract concept descriptor.

I prefer to think of such things in terms of positive and negative, productive (creative) or destructive. Energy is energy. What matters is what direction between this duality you are moving the energy toward or away from (most often).

We as physical creatures move energy in both directions as a matter of simply existing. You cannot exist without engaging in both creation and destruction. They are often part of the same process and that is indicative of how tightly intertwined and dependant on each other the positive and negative are. For example, the process of fueling our bodies is a series of alternating creative and destructive processes. We are given control (much of it involuntary) of energy as part of this and in a very real sense, the actual definition of being alive might very well be that an entity can make choices (instinctual or conscious) about how to direct a portion of the energy it has temporary control of. Where we sometimes get the choice is in what degree, proportion, and direction we cause or allow some of the energy to flow.

There is your "Evil". It's when you channel your controllable energy to destructive purposes. What's more, when we are all constantly channeling this energy out, we are also receiving energy. It's almost like life is a conductor or circuit for this energy flow. The irony and the danger is that when you channel energy toward one of the "poles" consistently, the energy you receive that replaces it eventually tends to come from mostly the same direction you sent it. Of course these dynamics also operate on a higher, spiritial level too, just at "a higher octive" as I've heard it refered to.

There will always be "Evil", because we will always channel this energy and so will always have access to both directions that it can flow.

Now, none of this is precise and I certainly have no proof of any of this, but you did say thought-experiment.

Allow me to take a few cracks at this:

"Good" and "Evil" are not separate independent entities that exist in and of themselves. You cannot "remove" the evil from everything. Evil has no tangible form. You simply cannot grasp hold of something that doesn't exist except as an abstract concept descriptor.

Yes, Good and evil form separate entities. This can be proven by simple observation; The nature of good does not change, and appears inthe same form wherever it appears. The good nature of a child is the same as the good nature of a child that lived 1000 years ago. That good nature has an existence of itself, and endures forever. Good and evil are not abstract things. Good has a power and strength all its own, and can alter its environment. When a person is good, he can affect changes in his environment, and in other people. Abstract concepts cannot do this. Good is a powerful force. It is not a human thought, but existed before us.

You must assume that good and evil are human creations. Not only that, but you probably think that these things originiated on this earth. Not only is this miopic, it cannot be true.

We know this is not true because Good and Evil cannot be limited to this earth. Good and evil are the prodcuts of intelligence. Good and evil are not HUMAN inventions. They must necissarily exist wherever divine intelligence has emerged. The definition of Good for the as-yet undiscovered aliens must be the same as our own. Life and Good are from the same source. Whatever increases the life force of a being is good, and whatever degrades or diminishes it is evil.

Animals react to good and evil just like people do. They didn't invent it either, but they surely respond to it. Any owner of a dog can tell you that. In order for this to happen, Good and evil MUST have some kind of signiture or force all their own. This would mean that good and evil are more than just concepts, they have cosmic origins and exist.

Evil and good are not abstractions. When a person does a good thing, there are consequences and results. When a person does evil, the same things occur. There are forces behind each of them, and powers involved in their unfolding.

We can compare these forces to "spirits" or intelligent forces that exist. A good man is filled with a good spirit, it can influence other beings. Abstract concepts cannot influence other beings. If what you say is correct, then an evil man can mimick the effect of being good simply by smiling or emulating the traits and behaviors of a good man. But, as yo ukow from personal experience, we are not fooled by someone who does this. What is it that makes us suspicious of liars of this kind? We have a sense of it, and what we are sensing is a tangible thing. If we can sense it, then it must be evident.

If you don't recognize the difference between good and evil, or think they are just imaginary states, then you have struck out into a brave new philosophical world all your own.

Here's something to twist your lemon: What would good and evil be like to an alien intelligent species? It is very likely that life exists elsewhere in the universe, and it probably is as intelligent as us, or more so. What would they say about good and evil? I think they would say things very similar to our own world.

Arky

the soul is like a fractal of light, and has a frequency, a higher frequency equals more light and a lower frequency equals less light.

evil actions lower frequency and put the soul on a path to lower dimensions and more in tune with negative evil spirits.

good/moral acts increase soul frequency and put you on a path towards higher dimensions and more positive spirits.

the opposite of light or existence is nonexistence.

evil contains the seeds of its own destruction, as it is the way to nonexistence or the void.

this dictates that in contary to most modern day beliefs etc, that absolute spiritual truths do actually exist.

Not only do they exist, but there is an effort among us to erase this understanding from the world.

It's just common sense: Only evil people would desire a world with no judgments, only evil people would want to live in a world where evil can exist without opposition. I can only pity those poor souls who have been taken captive by the spirit of rebellion and wrath. Those are the ones who cry out against judgment and truth most of all.

They become angry at a man who tells the difference between right and wrong. They desire everything to be the same, so evil might become legitamate. But evil cannot ever be legitimate, it is the bastard offspiring of a crippled and deformed mind.

Modern day beliefs are really just ignorant corruptions of things our ancestors already knew. We aren't learning any new philosophies: We are instead forgetting all the old ones and entering an intellectual void.

Arky

Arkaleus: Suppose the evil people think that they are actually good, and that those doing good deeds are actually doing evil deeds. Which side is right, or wrong?

Can Good then be defined as acts which create harmony, balance, and ensure the survival of our kind, as well as that of others' kinds? Good acts help the weak, and think of society as a whole and not from an individual point of view. A Good act is one of giving instead of taking, and one of sharing instead of snatching.

I know you would like to isolate the origin of this force, but in order for us to do that we must first define what we want to isolate. I think perspective (or the eyes of the beholder) creates a problem, because both sides are convinced that it is right and the other is wrong.

Just my thoughts, for debate, of course.

Good, you are looking at it with intellect.

Take the understanding of good a step further. Understand the life force, how it lives in a person, and its nature. An evil person has diseased life force, he must steal it from others to suppliment himself. A good person has an abundance of life force, and his intelligence is greater.

Good is the product of the abundance of Life, ruled by the Divine Reason, in accord with the forethought of Righteousness.

Evil persons consider their foul deeds to be fair, and that was commented on extensively by Muhammed. Try reading the Hadith or the Koran, and the prophet ridicules the foolishness of wicked persons and their psychology.

Evil persons are sometimes worthy of pity, because they do not know the correct way, and their pride does not afford them the benefit of correction. They consider themselves perfect, or complete, and do not consider that they are in error. These people are often found judging other people inwardly, and love to persecute others. It's not that they judge others, its that they do so with a wicked eye.

Judgments with a true eye are righteous, and such is obedience to God. Righteous people are not offended by petty matters, but wicked people will press technicalities. Wicked people desire to rule others, righteous people desire liberty for themselves and others. Wicked people love to play games and hide things, righteous people are simple and honest.

Our responsibility as a people is to praise and encourage righteousness among our fellows, and discourage wickedness and vice.

ARK

** Back to my point **

My thought experiment was to help isolate the origin of corruption and evil in mankind. It also is an excersise in diminishing the hopeless view of evil many modern folks take: They seem to think evil is legitimate, and that is somehow belongs here, or that good requires evil to exist alongside it.

Simply remove corruptions and disease from the human race, in your imagination. When you are relieved of illness and opressions, what do you do? Do you do something fun? Do you feel like harming other people? Do you feel like doing something evil and hurtful? No, human nature is not that way. Human nature tends towards righteousness and Liberty, and I can prove it. Individuals by themselves become righteous and pleasant when their diseases are taken from them. Unwise individuals fall back into disease, but that is the consequence of free will.

Arkaleus: I do not approve of your bringing religion into this discussion. I thought this was just to be a intellectual debate.

In your post above, even though the individual statements that you declare have some validity, for me, there is no progressive flow of logic in that particular post (for me).

I could agree with he gist of that that post, I however see no coherence.

Sorry.

aSEEKER, everyone is judged by there actions in life, and in the same way we also judge ourselves, as a individuals actions effect the individuals soul.

a evil person is damaging his ability to exist, as to exist you need light and frequency etc, evil is the process of lessening/removing it.

spiritual truths of existence exist and are absolute and unalterable, though there is a movement that is desperate to hide this truth, and this want for a lack of responsibility mind set is widespread.

evil looks for like minds and to manipulate more to there cause, and many are too spiritually weak to realise this and are happy to accept a cop out for there own spiritual responsibility of the truths of existence.





[edit on 25-12-2004 by MysticOfRadiance]

Which religion did I bring into my discussion?

Or do you call the judgment between good and evil and the analysis of their evolutions "religion?" If that is the kind of religion you mean, then that is the best and only kind.

Even in the grand conversations and debates of Socrates and Plato God was often addressed, along with the religions of their day. How much more should we moderns, having access to ALL of the world's scriptures and religions, draw upon this wealth and illuminate ourselves?

let's not try to degenerate into personal quibbles. How would any debate endure if we did this?

Arkaleus

[edit on 26-12-2004 by Arkaleus]

Originally posted by Arkaleus
... Try reading the Hadith or the Koran, and the prophet ridicules the foolishness of wicked persons and their psychology...

Arkaleus: I would like to assure you that this is simply an intellectual debate; I have not degenerated it into a personal quibble by disagreeing with your perspective and pointing it out (I ought to be entitled to do that). We must separate the person from the idea. Just because I want to disagree with your perspactive, for the purposes of this debate, doesn't mean that I don't like you or your views. You have raised other issues which I do read with keen interest.

Furthermore, you started this post by stating that this was a Thought Experiment. The reason that I did not want to bring in the scriptures is because thay have already defined and prescribed good and evil. If that has already been done in the scriptures, then what are we to debate.

I took a keen interest in this post because I thought that we would discuss evil from our our point of views based, of course, on all our accumulated knowledge. However, I feel there is no need to bring in the scriptures in a discussion where WE are discussing and debating OUR thoughts and views.

I am a honourable person and know how to distinguish the PERSON from the IDEA.

So let us exchange our differing views with the intention of learning something from one another.

Otherwise, there is no point of coming to this forum.

Please consider this thread sanitize dfrom religion. I would very much like to keep this thread intellectual and free from bias.

I mentioned the hadith because I found great humor in the words of Muhammed when he described the effect evil had on people's judgments and estimations. I found his words to be a valid psychological observations, and mentioned it causually.

My thought experiement is an attempt to do something that would be physically very difficult to do.

If we could remove all evil things and people from the world, all lies, all deceptions, all violence, thefts and murders, etc. Would they arise again? How would they, under what conditions would they occur again? What causes evil to be, or is it something that is outside of the human psyche, and invades it?

I theorize that evil is a cosmic force, and it invades us and this world. I believe that Evil is not the natural condition of man's mind, I believe he is disposed towards joy and peaceful thoughts. Our senses are designed for pleasure and joy, not for misery, therefore the natural state of man is bliss.

Evil is foreign to mankind, it is a disease of his mind and senses, and I believe the vector of this disease is a cosmic power or material that is itself semi-intelligent. My view is repeated by many of the ancients, and especially the Hebrews.

Evil does not exist in the animal world, animals do not become pathological towards one another, unless they are suffering from some kind of mental illness or disease of the brain. If rested, fed, and clean, animals are peaceful and contented.

Human beings can be all of these things, but remain evil, and bitter, and corrupted. What is it that grabs a hold of them and keeps them this way, and where does it come from?

Arky

Originally posted by Arkaleus

If we could remove all evil things and people from the world, all lies, all deceptions, all violence, thefts and murders, etc. Would they arise again? How would they, under what conditions would they occur again? What causes evil to be, or is it something that is outside of the human psyche, and invades it?
Arky

Is telling a mother her son died a painless, quick death in a war, when he really died a slow agonizing death...considered evil? Is this lie evil? Is a man who rescues a baby from a burning car considered good? What if he only rescued the baby because he was hiding crack on her? Everything is just shades of grey, I dont understand how you categorize things as inherently good or evil.

Now, consider this: How do we know Good from Evil?

Who is the Knower, and how does he or she know something as good or evil?

What I mean is: How does the Observer become separate from what he or she is observing? Isn�t the Observer a reflection of the Observed�that is to say, the Observer and the Observed are one?

By the same token, Good and Evil are not opposing forces. They are the same force, applied and misapplied.

The human problem is that we deal in dualities, which we have created as realities, as when we talk about Day and Night as if they were opposites. We know, for instance, that Day and Night are one uniform movement, not two opposing entities. So, Good and Evil, for what they are worth, are not two separate and opposite ideas, if the Thinker, the Observer in you and me who is conducting this Thought Experiment, cares to think on these things.

So, let�s think again how we can rise above the confusion caused by the dualities that have become the bane of our existence.

My thoughts on Good and Evil are that they all stem from choice. I believe that choice allows us to choose taking the easier route, e.g. Evil. All religion aside, the created was granted choice and all evil entered the world. If all evil were eradicated from this world, "man" would still step back into the easier route and choose evil, IMO.

regs out...

What is an easier route? How can evil ever result in an easier path than righteousness and goodness? That is impossible! We know this by personal experience.

We always know that that internal righteousness and attainment of dignity of good, and a geniune understanding and care for the wellbeing of the greatest intellectual treasures -- We know that these things lead to bliss in this life and full spirit with which to overcome death.


Afterthought Bombshell: Christians, it is no sin overthrow wicked governments.

Including our own. That is of course, If the Christian is an inheritor of the Earth, and can understand that there are other inheritors of the earth in other lands, led to this good inheritance by many wise prophets and sages who come from diferent eras!

Arkaleus

[edit on 27-12-2004 by Arkaleus]

I would guess that the knowledge of the evil deeds that once plagued this planet would turn bitter the good people which would then build up and turn them evil. Similar to what happened in the garden of evil.