Creativity May Be Linked with Psychiatric Disorders (Schizophrenia/Bipolar)

originally posted by: MystikMushroom


Are you suggesting that you wander around life and things just pop in and out of your head and you have no idea where they come from?

Can you know what your next thought will be before it happens?

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

originally posted by: MystikMushroom


Are you suggesting that you wander around life and things just pop in and out of your head and you have no idea where they come from?

Can you know what your next thought will be before it happens?

You might find this interesting...

The cohesiveness of consciousness is essential to our judgments about cause and effect—and, therefore, to our sense of self. In one particularly sneaky experiment, Eagleman and his team asked volunteers to press a button to make a light blink—with a slight delay. After 10 or so presses, people cottoned onto the delay and began to see the blink happen as soon as they pressed the button. Then the experimenters reduced the delay, and people reported that the blink happened before they pressed the button.

Eagleman conjectured that such causal reversals would explain schizophrenia. All of us have an internal monologue, which we safely attribute to ourselves; if we didn't, we might think of it as an external voice. So Eagleman has begun to run the same button-blink experiment on people diagnosed with schizophrenia. He reported that changing the delay time did not cause them to change their assessment of cause and effect. "They just don't adjust," Eagleman said. "They don't see the illusion. They're temporally inflexible." He ventured: "Maybe schizophrenia is fundamentally a disorder of time perception." If so, it suggests new therapies to cajole the brains of schizophrenic patients into recalibrating their sense of timing.

Scientif ic American

And, there are people out there who do not have an internal monologue so to speak. These people hear a voice, but do not know it is their own mind that's doing the talking.

All of ancient man used to be the is way, it wasn't until fairly recently that people began to read silently, to themselves. When people were in danger they would hear "RUN!" in their heads, and attribute that voice to "God" for saving them.

In reality, it was their own mind, their own inner monologue.

For quite some time people aimlessly wandered around and never "talked" to themselves in their own heads. It's a pretty interesting concept to ponder.

In regards to Cognitive Behavioral Therapy with Schizophrenia cases, it only works if the client is able to internalize and carry the therapy outside of session. And the very nature of Schizophrenia is not being able to hold a clear line of thought in proper context during the worst of it.

I've been struggling with high-functioning schizoaffective bi-polar for well over twenty years and I'm still trying to get it right. I'm lucky to be able to accept my diagnosis but many schizophrenics are in denial about what they are going through, and what works for one might not translate well for another.

I still struggle with memory blackouts and confused and disorganized thinking - even on good days my mind is awash in at least 20 different tangential lines of thought simultaneously, and it takes a lot of time and focus to maintain one clear line of mental clarity.

When I'm having a good day, I relish in the logical linear and tangible world....focusing on small blessings like sunlight, healthy food, good friends and the simple joys of life. The problem is when the dangerous symptoms begin to manifest themselves, it's almost impossible to tell subjective fantasy from consensual reality.

When the condition surfaces - the irrational mind gone haywire and takes center stage - it is a nightmare of psychosomatic sensations, hyper-vigilance and fearful persecutions, paranoia with no basis in reality, and a wealth of confusing signals rapid firing within the brain with no discernible rhyme or reason. It can last from hours to weeks depending on severity.

The closest approximation I can use to describe it is intellectual epilepsy.

Medications help somewhat, but offer no closed set solution....there are too many variables that come into play when the brain centers misfire on such a scale simultaneously. The best solution I have at my recourse is to try and sleep those episodes off. Just going to sleep - even with the aid of medications - can be exceedingly challenging when it's a psychotic mania.

I have always had a very high creative drive - but since my condition became disabling - on the bad days, I have no creative control, and instead of being able to move at my own pace and draw or write a story....things begin happening so fast that it's almost like being shoved onstage with no script in front of a cruel and jeering audience alongside intolerant players who just want you to fail and die for their collective amusement.

I can't even write about my experiences in detail without a high degree of caution because they have been known to trigger involuntary manic stages that can quickly slide into full blown psychosis without much warning. Some are terrifying to such a degree that the majority of my creative outlets have been voluntarily shut down for long periods of time in order to avoid the potential effects of involuntary psychosis.

I wish there was a magic pill, but there isn't. There is only day to day management and avoidance of environmental stimulus that have been proven time and time again to kick in the more frightening features of disconnect.

The really sad thing about a lot of these "news reports and studies" about Schizophrenia is that is plays off the morbid fascination of the public in regards to this illness, and every time I read about the latest study and their conclusions I really get a little disheartened and mad, because if these people dealt with even a fraction of what I go through from time to time, they wouldn't be so callous in stating some of their "conclusions".

I used to think I would never wish my condition on anyone - not even my worst enemies - but I might reconsider if it will help some of these folks get their heads out of their collective bums when it comes down to the hard-line reality of living with these types of illnesses and their respective manifestations.

Must be nice to be able to be so dismissive of something one doesn't deal with firsthand.

a reply to: GENERAL EYES

it only works if the client is able to internalize and carry the therapy outside of session.

That's true of ALL talk therapy clients. If they're not invested in it, it won't work. Doesn't matter what 'therapy theory' is used, if the client is not voluntarily motivated to do the work, it is useless.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Agreed.

The problem with the majority of schizophrenia cases is that some are too heavily invested in the fantasy and don't want to give it up. Being able to find something like art therapy or writing therapy to where they can transmute their experiences into a constructive and tangible frame of reference is the key objective. It provides a bit of structure to an unstructured experience.

I know I struggle with just maintaining a legible handwriting sometimes, so it's not an easy process.

The more one practices, the stronger the healthy coping skills become.

Too many folks out there want a quick fix - and this isn't an illness that just miraculously goes away overnight. It's a lifelong commitment.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom

For quite some time people aimlessly wandered around and never "talked" to themselves in their own heads. It's a pretty interesting concept to ponder.

If there is a 'you' in there speaking to a 'me' this can cause a lot of anxiety. One person seems to be talking to another - often scolding them - the other is usually a victim - they cause a lot of distress - dis ease. If these two or more are not seen to be just noise and not actually yourself then one will want to escape the other - suicide in the most extreme cases.
Eckhart Tolle was full of anxiety and depression and kept thinking that he would have to kill himself to stop it - one evening the thought 'I cannot live myself any longer' arose and he heard the thought and noticed that there were two of him - the 'I' that could not live with 'myself'. He thought it strange . The next day he awoke and the depression and anxiety had lifted away - he spent years trying to understand what had happened. The two had become one. The one had never been two but thought speaks about someone who isn't.

I am an artist, I have a Fine Art degree and I teach art, I have also worked in various art jobs for more than 20 years and other places of people suffering mental health issues.

I would like to add that, whilst I am genuinely artistically talented (not boasting), I can draw realistically, paint, sculpt, good at photography etc. I also have other qualifications and business experience, and never suffered any mental health issues.

I realise in my 20+ years of creative industries that a LOT of people that consider themselves artists (artists, musicians, actors etc) are genuinely not talented in their 'field', they aren't natural artists but they THINK they are, and very often those that study art at FE / HE level do so due to not having other qualifications, as a last resort.

Often the 'creative talent' they do have is in inventing themselves as an ''artist'', ''actor'' etc and manipulating people into 'believing in them', a 'creative talent' for believing in things that exist only in their mind.

That said, anyone can call themselves an 'artist', I have seen paintings children would be embarrassed at being shown by a 'professional artists organisation' in a public exhibition space. Most exhibitions only require en entry fee for exhibiting and most art qualifications, including degrees these days contain little actual teaching of art skills and more about writing about and copying contemporary artists, and conceptual installations, all of which require little or not creative talent.

Therefore the research is flawed in it's definition of 'creative' and 'artist'.

a reply to: theabsolutetruth

I'm creatively inclined, every human being is at some level - but outside of a few goofy cartoons and rudimentary folk music projects, I don't even qualify in the circuit of Conventional Talent. I have ideas that others might be able to translate into true works of art, but that's about it. It's very frustrating. I've been accused of tracing even when I freehand a piece.

It is emotionally devastating to be accused of being a complete fraud over something I spent my entire childhood attempting to hone to a precise individual style. Even my simple folk music became a target for more accomplished musicians. I believe it was "around here we know how to tune our guitar" even though I was intentionally exploring alternative open tuning. Harsh indeed. I haven't played music in years because of it.

It killed a part of my love of drawing and music - something that gave me focus and control over and an temporary escape - and I've ceased attempting works because they were judged so harshly by critics. Now all that "creative energy" has been turned inwards an it complicates my condition on occasion. I have no outlet in the usual vein I was accustomed to. I have to find new ways to express myself in a healthy manner.

We have a schizophrenic young lady locally who exhibits her shadowbox art at one of the grassroots galleries downtown, and while most people would be extremely dismissive of her work on the "art scale" - I can appreciate it it for what it is....someone dealing with the inexpressible trying to convey what is going on in her mind in a productive format.

Too often, the Art Crowd can be needlessly one-sided in their definition of acceptable expression.

I mean, Andy Warhol's "Soup Cans" went for a pretty penny didn't they?
Anyone can throw a projected image up on a canvas and paint over it.

But we also have incredibly gifted photographers, water-colorists and pastel artists who are absolutely amazing in their capture of color and realism. But then again, there are some artisans who have an uncanny grasp of color manipulation and composition that would rival even Picasso or Monet. Some of the more abstract pieces are the most inspired.

I've always been of the opinion that true art is more about the need for expression and less about pure composition.

This might just boil down to a huge discussion of "what is art" and it's usually all in the eye of the beholder.

Michelangelo versus Jackson Pollock, Da Vinci versus Chuck Jones.

We all have our affinities and preferences.

If one feels a little less burdened by the intangible after a work is completed, then for me, it is Art.

A lot of this has more to do with finding a label to think of oneself as other than "crazy and schizophrenic and diseased" and replacing it with a more proactive terminology that gives hope and form outside of factors we cannot control about ourselves and our plight. Better to be thought of as an "eccentric artisan" than a "dangerous mental patient".

Such a fickle world sometimes....especially when it comes down to semantics.
So it goes.

a reply to: GENERAL EYES

I have experienced my own put down of my talent, being told not to draw or paint and not to be 'so literal' whilst others were smearing and nothing much else and being applauded for it as it was more 'contemporary'.

There are lots of talented artists with real skills that have been effectively marginalised from mainstream art because of the contemporary agenda. The tradition of making great artists isn't there any more, which is a shame as developing aesthetics is a good thing for societies.

Similar can be said of the music industry, the great Harpist being marginalised whilst Miley Cyrus etc made popular.

A society of distorted agendas is reflected in it's art I guess.

Psychiatry exists mostly to keep certain individuals off the streets and as a precaution in case they turn violent against themselves or others. These things really happen to people and they need help, it's not what I am argueing.

But psychiatry is a business just like everything else, these people need other people as patients or they'll be out of work and they would lose their income just like anybody else and in the end become homeless and without means to buy the basics like food and clothing. Psychiatry should be paid with tax money only and mental healthcare workers should get a contract for life, whether they 'treat' patients or not or even better get more involved with healthy people making them more healthy once there would be less patients.

Big pharma needs customers as well but I believe they could survive without mind altering drugs.

They have their bible, the DSM but what is it? It's basically based on theories at least a century old, doesn't nobody wonder why they still use century old theories? Surely they could think up new things and new treatments in a century, especially with the last few decades with better research equipment and the internet.

There are hundreds of chemicals in the brain and science is only scratching the surface, yet they always pick the same few popular chemicals as if that's the main factor, the root cause and they not only know this 100% sure (hey, it's science!) they also have medicin that will work. And then the patient might believe it really does affect change and it becomes a self fullfilling prophecy.

Another thing which bothers me many times when reading about scientific (medical/mental) research is that it's almost always presented as if we're living a hundred years in the future. If science is so advanced, why don't they do mass DNA testing for mental illnesses? It's because they need the patient (or his/her family) to come to them instead of psychiatrists going to the public calling people mentally ill because they would quickly be out of business.

Anyway, the news item left an image of the cold, uncreative psychiatrist who lives a very structured but dull life who is annoyed by those living life to the fullest and wants them to shut up hence mentally ill people are more creative and the less creative one is the more healthy which should become the norm.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

I don't know. The same voice I speak with to other people is the same one I hear in my head. It never talks to me. I make it talk. I say things I would say out loud, but internally. Instead of talking to myself out loud, I talk to myself in my own head. I am always in control of the voice in my head, it never talks on its own.

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: FlyersFan

Sorry, but that's pure Bull! How could the psychs know 1 in 5 will have disorders when they can't even define them?

Bi-polar, a 'chemical imbalance' is so bogus that they cannot even measure one of the chemicals in the body whatsoever.

The Psych industry has morphed into a big pharma retail outlet. That's the purpose of these 'disorders'. Drug them.

The biggest fraud ever perpetrated. I makes me suspect a vested interest on your part.

As others have said this is complete and utter nonsense. First off it's one in four. We' worked out all these chemicals from precursors such as 5-HTP down to breakdown molecules such as 5-HIAA in the 1960s. I'm bi-polar and since taking volpraic acid/sodium volporate for it I no longer have the extreme highs and lows, though obviously each individual requires a slightly different medication and concentration to help alleviate symptoms without causing side effects. And yes I have had an fMRI scan to show the chemical is interacting with the correct receptors in the brain while not over exciting my synaptic vesicles.

Please no one listen to this garbage - he seems to have beta-blockers mixed up with medication used to alleviate the more extreme symptoms of mental illness.

---

As for the study, this is quite old news in the UK - a lot of incredibly violent prisoners have been rehabilitated by being allowed to do art to express their emotion/frustration instead of waiting until it boils over to an act of violence.
www.oxleas.nhs.uk...

originally posted by: bastion

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: FlyersFan

Sorry, but that's pure Bull! How could the psychs know 1 in 5 will have disorders when they can't even define them?

Bi-polar, a 'chemical imbalance' is so bogus that they cannot even measure one of the chemicals in the body whatsoever.

The Psych industry has morphed into a big pharma retail outlet. That's the purpose of these 'disorders'. Drug them.

The biggest fraud ever perpetrated. I makes me suspect a vested interest on your part.

As others have said this is complete and utter nonsense. First off it's one in four. We' worked out all these chemicals from precursors such as 5-HTP down to breakdown molecules such as 5-HIAA in the 1960s. I'm bi-polar and since taking volpraic acid/sodium volporate for it I no longer have the extreme highs and lows, though obviously each individual requires a slightly different medication and concentration to help alleviate symptoms without causing side effects. And yes I have had an fMRI scan to show the chemical is interacting with the correct receptors in the brain while not over exciting my synaptic vesicles.

Please no one listen to this garbage - he seems to have beta-blockers mixed up with medication used to alleviate the more extreme symptoms of mental illness.

---

As for the study, this is quite old news in the UK - a lot of incredibly violent prisoners have been rehabilitated by being allowed to do art to express their emotion/frustration instead of waiting until it boils over to an act of violence.
www.oxleas.nhs.uk...

While it is possible to show alleviation of symptoms it is impossible to know that psychiatric medical intervention is more than that. I don't think we are even close to this period being beyond the experimental stage where a dr. Is using the most current research available to make diagnosis. This is not the same as understanding the long term effect or illness/brain pattern. Some behavior conditions are programmed by nature for survival and the constraints of modern society and its changes and expectations of the people within society are the cause of behavior abnormalities.

Its not really possible to use a scientific diagnosis process that is so closely tied to the organization and expected behaviors of a society. This diagnosis process does not take in account some of these human conditions were required to play natural roles within the Darwinian model. Its actually society requiring people to conform to very unnatural ways of living for some people.

Would a psychopath be considered a psychopath 1000 years ago or would they be an emperor revered by all? Not only are the definitions dependent on current social values but, the treating of symptoms seems to be only that. Where as an illness is cured the constant need for drugs to keeps the balance would indicate we don't understand the illness yet. We are treating symptoms of a greater illness we haven't figured out yet. Or its the constraints of society on certain brain types that cause a learned behavior pattern and don't fit into what this current society is.

What if we needed hyper active people for the workforce. Would we come up with names for people who's brains didn't have add. Would we treat what we saw in cat to look like what we needed to make a good citizen?

This is why it doesn't seem like a science to me. It uses neuroscience but it isn't neuroscience.

originally posted by: luthier
.

A very good post and food for thought. Plus I couldn't agree with you more that psychology/iatry is not a science. It may be one day, but at the moment it certainly hasn't developed far enough.

However in the UK we don't do things that way. DSM-IV criteria are applied and measured using the respective scale (i.e Beck Anxietory Inventory, Patient Health Questionnaire #9, Mental Health Inventory 1,2,3....39) to void all the problems/guessing game you quite rightly point out. Doctors and Psychiatrists are taught that, as you say, it is the individual trying to fit into a society not designed/ready for them that may be causing the majority of their illness, symptoms or distress as these are incredibly complex matters with no quick fix solutions.

I would be very interested to hear if the US use the same (though sadly not shocked if it doesn't).

I completely agree with you on the whole 'shifting goalposts' aspect of it though, today's psychopath could be yesterday's protector and today's schizophrenic could be tomorrow's visionary leader.

This is no surprise in the least. Many of the greatest artists in history have been described as "crazy" from classical composers to famous painters, to rock and roll legends and more modernly, artistic hip hop stars (non mainstream). I think the extreme conflict of emotions gives them a broader spectrum in which to describe it, and emotion in art can hit home for the viewer.

The most recent example I can think of, is the rap artist, Canibus. Some folks remember him from 1998 battling LL Cool J, but he's been making music ever since, just not anything with much mainstream appeal. He cares about the art of lyricism and complex rhyming and flowing to the extreme degree. The man made hip hop history by making a puzzle song that basically had 5 versions of the same song where every line could be interchanged with the corresponding line from another and the continuity does not change. Basically he made a song that the fans can create for themselves. Nobody has ever done anything even close to this in hip hop, but your average hip hop fan has probably never heard of this because most of mainstream hip hop is notoriously un-artistic and simple minded. Canibus has been described by others as very difficult to work with as well as seeming bi polar with his emotions. He is known for emotional outbursts at times as well as extreme paranoia. I still believe he is the greatest hip hop artist in history, but the "crazy" factor is definitely there.

a reply to: Hefficide

Then I consider you an adversary. Period.

I can hire one of your ilk, if I'm a Lawyer, and get an opinion either way I want it. al I have to do is see the track record of your 'opinions'. The other side inevitably have their own shrink for their side.

Trans-orbital and pre-frontal lobotomies, insulin shock treatments, electro-convulsive 'therapy'...amperes through a milli-amp bio-electric system...more deaths from 'complications' of ECT during the Vietnam era than deaths from that war itself.

You ignore the obvious connection to big pharma, Lord, I could go on for pages.

It would be pointless, you are fully aware of what I refer to. (probably far more than even I'm aware of.)

The is no group I hold in more loathing than Psychiatrists. None. A complete and utter fraud.

(You yourself may or may not be particularly active in the above examples, if not, then excuse this as a vent. otherwise, as a group, this planet would be far better off with your extinction.)

a reply to: Hefficide

Hefficide...personally I know all about it. Nonetheless, I refuse to accept all Doctors/Scientists are bad and I am aware that most discoveries are found in unexpected places...by unintended means. What I have a problem with is the Sales Depts at drug companies endangering EVERYONE for short term quarterly gain. Their sway in a CORPORATION is like giving the bus driver coc aine - Slow down there Casey Jones! The off labeling was just the last time they were caught. I agree this is a fixed game but don't kick over the Gatorade cooler quite yet some people need help fighting the good fight.

a reply to: Hefficide

Hi - I'm like you in that medication 'rather than' therapy is needed in my case...

Actually, I had done therapy in my 20's and it really helped a lot, so I don't discount it...

But, after I had my baby I was hit really hard (I joke that I've been suffering postpartum depression for 17 years now),
and when I saw a psychologist, he interviewed me, had me spend several hours in psychological testing, and ended up giving me a clean bill of 'psychological' health and saying that I would be wasting my time seeing him -

- Unfortunately, after years of trying most everything 'out there', I have had to settle for a 'mix' of medications which only offer 'some' relief...
...my diagnosis is literally "Treatment Resistant Major Depressive Disorder"

Anyway, my point is, just in case it is one I haven't tried - would you mind sending me a PM with the name of your medication?


Oh, and to get back on topic:
I never knew I was creative until, in one of many attempts at 'self-help' for depression, I decided to take a workshop on a book called, "The Artist's Way" by Julia Cameron -
- I was amazed to discover what an artistic (not saying 'talented') person I am!!

Actually, the book isn't even intended to be 'for' depression, but just as a general tool to help people 'tap into' their creativity...and I have to say, I highly recommend it!
You probably can't find a 'workshop' of it these days, but the book has all the 'exercises' in it, which you can easily do on your own - or even better get a group of friends and do it.

There's a follow-up book that's even better called, "The Vein of Gold", but it's good to do "Artist's Way" first.

May be slightly off topic but..

For dirt on Big Pharma see: www.badscience.net... (down at the moment so www.theguardian.com... )

Writen by one of the world's most respected Dr's and Journalist Ben Goldacre. Requires a decent understanding of science and stats but tears all dodgy drug trials apart - plus teaches you how never to be duped by any paper or stats from any organisation ever again.