Russia puts Fear in U.S.A.

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer

It wouldn't change that all three want to be top dog, and China feels it doesn't need the help.
China could surpass America on its own if it plays its cards right, so why make a useless alliance with India or Russia? To create two future rivals for no reason?
The technology isn't suddenly going to increase. None of them really know much the others don't.

America has been wildly unpopular before. People hated Reagan as much as they do Bush. America didn't collapse then.

And could all of the varius Russians out there speaking in broken English try real arguments for a change, instead of calling all Americans dumb, ignorant and brainwashed? You know, real facts might be useful. How about a few sources to back up your claims for once?

Im not russian, my english is not brken, its just that I type w/o checking for errors so some typos come up. China cannot take on the US itself. It can never hope to attian the world dominating status the US enjoys now. Also it cannot indivisually expand to meet its resource needs w/o some assistance.China's navy is brown water and more or less blockaded by the US pacific fleet. Russia and India have blue water navies and can compete with the USN in their regional oceans.
The very notion of china not 'needing' russia and india to attain true superpower status is the reason for its failure to do so in the future. Also Russia and India have some strategic pull in the central asina and middleeastern countries. At least more than China does..so you see if the chinese wish to move out of their own territorial 'nest' they need russia and India.
Finally all three don't want to be 'lone top dog' they know its practically impossible..an alliance would suit all symbiotic needs..

The reason China has yet to rise to superpower status is that they kept themselves cut off, and their economy was state controlled. You can't grow like that.

If China accepts a capitalist system, theire economy will surpass America's eventually. Right now, they're doing a good job of achieving that.

I fail to see why you'd talk about their current military strength. It doesn't matter much because they don't plan on going to war with America, at least not anytime in the near future.

They're updating their millitary just enough to keep Taiwan in check. That's why most of their modern equipment is focused towards Taiwan.

China knows that once their economy is up to the task, they can develop the military power, and they can use the Russian military equipment, plus some of the Western material they've been able to pick up from Europe and Israel to surpass America.

China doesn't need Russia or India.

Hey man are you on drugs OR WHAT ?! the reason I put those number up is to show U.S.A. did not WIN THE KOREAN WAR THOSE NUMBERS HAVE BEEN CONFIRMED BY YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT SO WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT IN YOUR POST???????? your own Government said MiG 15 shot 1035 F- 80/84/86's down and MiGs that were shot down by USAF were only 335 so what you said in your previous post makes absolutly no scence dude!

[edit on 4-1-2005 by SiberianTiger]

[edit on 4-1-2005 by SiberianTiger]

[edit on 4-1-2005 by SiberianTiger]

Hey man are you on drugs OR WHAT ?! the reason I put those number up is to show U.S.A. did not WIN THE KOREAN WAR THOSE NUMBERS HAVE BEEN CONFIRMED BY YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT SO WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT IN YOUR POST???????? your own Government said MiG 15 shot 1035 F- 80/84/86's down and MiGs that were shot down by USAF were only 335 so what you said in your previous post makes absolutly no scence dude!

You're just arguing history right now. Go find anyone who claims that the communists held air superiority during Korea. You won't.

I JUST GAVE YOU YOUR OWN GOV's you have shown me you have been deafeated in this argument and the only thing you have left is now to use funny little staement like that as if I haven't just proven you wrong hhahahahaahahahahahahahahahaah nighty night for now

Wow. And I thought Dima was bad. Looks to me like Siberian Tiger is an incoherent bumbling child in complete denial of all facts. America is not simply the best country ever just because a couple of sensitive nationalists say so. I'm not going to tell anyone their country sucks. But that doesn't mean I'll let them bad mouth mine. America has the most advanced technology in the world, for now. But there's no point in denying the Russians. Both sides of this ridiculous argument are biased. This is ATS where the mature few of us try to deny ignorance, not opinions.

I JUST GAVE YOU YOUR OWN GOV's you have shown me you have been deafeated in this argument and the only thing you have left is now to use funny little staement like that as if I haven't just proven you wrong hhahahahaahahahahahahahahahaah nighty night for now

You gave a book title, and not much else. It's a book you seemingly haven't read, either.

America has never claimed a hundred losses in the air, but 750, with less than a hundred being F-86 Sabres.

Here's another book on the issue:

English-language works dealing specifically with Soviet and Chinese participation in the Korean War remain relatively few in number. Dr. Xiaoming Zhang, a member of the faculty at Texas A&M International University, has filled a portion of that gap with a first-rate history of the important role played by the air forces of the two communist giants in that still-unresolved conflict. Zhang draws on a vast array of Chinese, Soviet, and American sources. Readers will find his description of Korean War air operations from the Soviet and Chinese perspective quite illuminating.

...

Although he spends a fair amount of time trying to bring balance to what he sees as inflated US �kill ratios,� Zhang agrees with most Western historians that the communist air forces failed to achieve the air superiority they repeatedly sought over the USAF or even to provide desperately needed protection and close air support to communist ground forces suffering under a furious US and UN air assault. Only now, in the face of America�s post�Gulf War, high-tech air dominance, is China turning its back on its Korean War experience, which, in Zhang�s view, shackled it to an outdated and ineffective defensive mind-set.

www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil...

It's funny that you'd find Russia's figures more reliable then ours. Russia had pretty lax standards for what it considered a kill. Any plane they damaged was considered a kill, while the Americans only consider those downed over the battlefield a kill.

You've at best shown ignorance, and that some argue America over-stated its kill ratio during Korea. Nothing comes close to showing the Russians had air dominance. No historian, or even veteran, would agree with that.

More lies Russia's definition of shoot down is an F-86 that has been litteraly "SHOY DOWN" bullets pumped into it and it goes flying down thats what Russia conciders a shoot down so that statement by you of what you (Disturber Diliverer) think Russia to coincider a shoot down is what-more YANK PROPAGANDA Russia said then and now 1106 F-80/84/86's "SHOT DOWN" 335 MiG 15 shot down Russia doesn't need to nor is ashamed that N.Korean lost Ground War Russia know N.Korean troops are no match for U.S Marines but airwar was won by VVS now if U.S. won airwar then there would not have been stalemate to the war, till this day the war is not over it's commonly referred to as a "stalemate" You also contradicted your own nations ratio U.S. said 10:1 kill but you stated 3:1 (even if you didn't state this U.S. still lost) 1.now why is it when we read YANK'S versions of events that include Rus there are always "HOLES IN THE STORY?" = Inteligent Answer #1= Because the said version (Yank Version to be exact) of the events are Yank "LIE PROPAGANDA"

WTF are you talking about Siberian?!@?!?! Both the Chinese government,Russian government and any other nation on the communist side says the Americans had air superiority. I'll let you absorb that,commie

You also contradicted your own nations ratio U.S. said 10:1 kill but you stated 3:1 (even if you didn't state this U.S. still lost)

I said that even if one believed the Russian numbers, it would still give the Sabres a 3:1 kill ratio against the Mig-15's.

1.now why is it when we read YANK'S versions of events that include Rus there are always "HOLES IN THE STORY?" = Inteligent Answer #1= Because the said version (Yank Version to be exact) of the events are Yank "LIE PROPAGANDA

There are holes in the Russian story.

It's true many doubt the 10:1 kill ratio stated by the Americans. No one doubts who won the air war, though.

[edit on 4-1-2005 by Disturbed Deliverer]

Jesus....and I used to think Russia is a democracy now....Communist propaganda.....damn...

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
The reason China has yet to rise to superpower status is that they kept themselves cut off, and their economy was state controlled. You can't grow like that.

If China accepts a capitalist system, theire economy will surpass America's eventually. Right now, they're doing a good job of achieving that.

I fail to see why you'd talk about their current military strength. It doesn't matter much because they don't plan on going to war with America, at least not anytime in the near future.

They're updating their millitary just enough to keep Taiwan in check. That's why most of their modern equipment is focused towards Taiwan.

China knows that once their economy is up to the task, they can develop the military power, and they can use the Russian military equipment, plus some of the Western material they've been able to pick up from Europe and Israel to surpass America.

China doesn't need Russia or India.

Hehe...as you wish, IMHO China will reach critical mass very soon and it will need to expand its sphere of influence into regions with vital resources and they will not be able to do it w/o Russia and/or India.
there are just too many countering factors...USN pacific fleet, India emerging as competition, Japan's re-emergence as a military power,SE Asia leaning towards the US.
China has an upper hand now in the tech/industrial market now because its on a growth wave, there is no uniqueness in the services its provides, there are many waiting to take over. Its major advantage now is the cheapness of products offered which is due to the availibility of a large workforce.
If a chinese warship ever wants to dosey-doe in international waters and show the finger to an american counter part, it needs India and Russia to do so...

NO ONE DOUBTS that thats true because they beleive YANK PROPAGANDA t MOST YANK POPULATION WOULD BELEIVE THAT also because there STUPID. Now YANKS realy beleive terrorists are coming outta the sky about to take down the U.S. 19 high jackers commited 9/11 Hussien was a threat he worked with BenLaden yea, yea we gotta get him if people are DUMB enough to beleive all these "FANTASTIC" propaganda of the past they'll be DUMB enough to beleive all this 9/11-Operation Iraq Freedom HOAX too so now we know the kind of people we Russkies are dealing with DUMB YANKS and I mean that with NO EXAGGERATION

[edit on 4-1-2005 by SiberianTiger]

whoa there just a sec..did CCCP fighter pilots actually engage american counterparts in the korean war?? NO WAY...they never did!! I WANT proof to show that they did

Infact now that one thinks about it..the ruskies haven't engaed in air war ever since WWII..so just shut that arguement up there u ppl!!
The only true evenly matched encounters between russian and american equipment have in Indo-Pak wars..and we all knwo how those turned out..

operation freedom was no hoax..infact unfortunately it showed the world that the US has truely become a power hungry superpower that could not be stopped..also it proved that, the impression of a great nation can be ruined by the whim of a madman...


sorry now me sober
What it also showed was that other countries need to unite against this imperialistic force to bring balance to the force(world)

Deadalus

Hehe...as you wish, IMHO China will reach critical mass very soon and it will need to expand its sphere of influence into regions with vital resources and they will not be able to do it w/o Russia and/or India.

China does not need India or Russia to expand its influence into the Middle East. It has already been overtaking Russia there just fine. I'd say Iran values their relationship with China more then Russia at this point.

China has an upper hand now in the tech/industrial market now because its on a growth wave, there is no uniqueness in the services its provides, there are many waiting to take over. Its major advantage now is the cheapness of products offered which is due to the availibility of a large workforce.
If a chinese warship ever wants to dosey-doe in international waters and show the finger to an american counter part, it needs India and Russia to do so...

Russia has been doing a fairly good job of improving their standing. They've been able to create some of their own industries. Chinese car companies may very well take over the American markets in a few years. They'll be able to produce sports cars just the same as other brands, yet do it at far cheaper prices.

It's not final. There are things that could set it off course. Right now, though, it appears that China has dominated that region, and very well surpass America. I'd go as far as to say it will happen unless America could force China into a box today. That would mean a war, and Taiwan is probably the best chance at that.

whoa there just a sec..did CCCP fighter pilots actually engage american counterparts in the korean war?? NO WAY...they never did!! I WANT proof to show that they did

Are you really doubting that Russian pilots were in Korea?

Infact now that one thinks about it..the ruskies haven't engaed in air war ever since WWII..so just shut that arguement up there u ppl!!
The only true evenly matched encounters between russian and american equipment have in Indo-Pak wars..and we all knwo how those turned out.

This isn't true in any sense. Americans and Russians did face off in Korea. America has also faced Russian planes in Kosovo and Iraq.

Besides Korea, they don't even come close to being fair measuring sticks, though.

What it also showed was that other countries need to unite against this imperialistic force to bring balance to the force(world)

By most estimates, the combined military strength of China, Russia, and India wouldn't measure up to America's at current times. No force in the world could.

A good book on modern warfare is How to Make War by James Dunnigan. This guy has predicted the outcomes of the Arab-Israel wars, Cold War (not quite the same as a normal war I admit), and Gulf War to scary accuracy.

He does a pretty good assessment of all the world's militaries, and does a power ranking. Based on current standards, America is a 2,488, China is a 827, India 564, and Russia a 369.

You can do the math. America would have the advantage of being able to pick time and place of the fight. We are the only military in the world who can deploy anywhere we wish. Now, for this America could probably get 70% of its total strength. Being able to pick the time of the fight gives a bigger bonus.

If America picks one country to fight in, the other two wouldn't be able to deploy much of their own strength. They'd face the same problems America does there.

In most cases, America would probably come out on top in most military conflicts in the present time.

Siberiantiger

NO ONE DOUBTS that thats true because they beleive YANK PROPAGANDA t MOST YANK POPULATION WOULD BELEIVE THAT also because there STUPID. Now YANKS realy beleive terrorists are coming outta the sky about to take down the U.S. 19 high jackers commited 9/11 Hussien was a threat he worked with BenLaden yea, yea we gotta get him if people are DUMB enough to beleive all these "FANTASTIC" propaganda of the past they'll be DUMB enough to beleive all this 9/11-Operation Iraq Freedom HOAX too so now we know the kind of people we Russkies are dealing with DUMB YANKS and I mean that with NO EXAGGERATION

Not like Russia starting its own War on Terror, right...?

I mean, its impossible Putin planned the hostage crisis in Chechnya. Only evil American yanks would do that sort of thing...

I mean, its impossible Putin planned the hostage crisis in Chechnya. Only evil American yanks would do that sort of thing...

Damn...you beat me to it. How smart is your government if you gas your own people in a "hostage rescue"?

Funny my reply hasn't been.....replied to but one thing if we are talking about american propaganda then yes i have seen it first hand.
During the election every station had propaganda on it even the cartoon shows had them in it.
Even disney had it to a degree!
Also every SFCT in the world uses gas to subdue terrorists, its a mistake they made with the gas.
If we want to talk about real fk ups, talk about the iranian embassy seige where one man , one lone SAS trooper , had to clear an entire floor by himself.
Add to that his first shot on his MP5 was a missfire and the terrorist was pointing a gun to him....those where some serios fk ups.

Funny my reply hasn't been.....replied to but one thing if we are talking about american propaganda then yes i have seen it first hand.
During the election every station had propaganda on it even the cartoon shows had them in it.
Even disney had it to a degree!

Care to give some actual examples?

It's hard to make propaganda in a country with two parties. It would most likely be anti-Bush if it were mainstream, as well. Something like 90% of national reporters in America supported Kerry.

[edit on 4-1-2005 by Disturbed Deliverer]

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer

Care to give some actual examples?

It's hard to make propaganda in a country with two parties. It would most likely be anti-Bush if it were mainstream, as well. Something like 90% of national reporters in America supported Kerry.

[edit on 4-1-2005 by Disturbed Deliverer]

Actually the propaganda about the war by bush and the propaganda against the war by kerry and what i saw it was the oposite.

You ever been to disney's muppet show?
At the very end it has , "a salute to all nations but esspecially america.
Also what about the documentaries?
Not a single military one except about mercenaries in europe thats it the rest was on USA.