Feds seek to keep assault rifle parts seized from Connecticut gun-maker - Stag Arms

originally posted by: SubTruth

originally posted by: jimmyx
a reply to: Vasa Croe

or....the Feds were just enforcing the law, but of course that couldn't be it, because that doesn't generate the fear needed, for gun owners and the NRA against our government.

You must not understand how Machining works so let me help you draw a mental picture. You have processes put in place machining is one of them and etching it is called is another. Etching will happen at the end of the process.


This is nothing more than a witch hunt and a flat out abuse of the law. This company is big and sells many many rifles.

This is also my view.

It costs money to mark scrap parts.

Only in spec useable parts get marked.

At least when I was in manufacturing in the late 90s early 2000s.

a reply to: johnwick

It does depend on process and process control etching can happen during machining or after it. I etch during and after. Some places will only etch conforming product and leave non conforming blank for scrapping.

originally posted by: SubTruth
a reply to: johnwick

It does depend on process and process control etching can happen during machining or after it. I etch during and after. Some places will only etch conforming product and leave non conforming blank for scrapping.

That's what we did, but I worked in an auto parts plant.

I have never worked in firearms manufacturing.

So I know I don't know for sure.

a reply to: ISawItFirst

I am no self-proclaimed expert on ARs, but have built many and am AGI certified on this platform. Being familiar with 922r being in compliance, you probably understand the multitude of requirements needed to manufacture an AR, specifically referenced in my above post. Chapter 7 deals with the embossing/stamping of parts in the manufacturing of any firearm, and ATF's Firearm Technology Branch sets the criteria for what specific parts must contain a serial number. R&D guns seem to be the only exemption from serial numbers, butany part specifically manufactured for sale as part or completed firearm must be marked in compliance with ATF regulations.
There is not enough info from the original article for me to assume we're talking about Class 3 parts, and I'm hunting down more info from various gunsmith sites I visit. What troubles me most is how the ATF became aware of this situation, and if parts not stamped were discovered during an inspection, or someone blew the whistle. Again, not enough info to draw firm conclusions.

With all the different parts that Stag makes they only have one employee that puts on the serial numbers? Pretty stupid business model.

a reply to: buster2010

With all the different parts that Stag makes they only have one employee that puts on the serial numbers? Pretty stupid business model.
The excuse offered by Stag, that employee that stamps parts was on vacation kinda rings hollow. They aren't a small company, and with their manufacturing capabilities, the onus to fall on one person doesn't make sense. More info needed.

a reply to: Sremmos80

Oh the guy was on vacation... I guess that makes every thing a ok!

Who said he was on vacation? Isn't this one of those poor argument fallacies?

(Ahh i should have read it all. He did say the guy was on vacation. Sorry about that. )

Have you ever been to a machine shop? I would imagine that there are different stations for everything, parts build up waiting for this or that. I think you want your serial numbers to match, so a serial number for the upper to match the lower, that kind of thing. Maybe they have one pile for selling lowers only. I dunno, the point is neither do you.

The government actively purchased guns and sold them to Mexican drug cartels. This is fact. Why do assume these types of people are infallible in this case?



V

The government actively purchased guns and sold them to Mexican drug cartels. This is fact.

So since they broke the law then no one has to follow it right?

Think that fly's in the face of the personal responsibility stuff i always hear.

Our gov has been a partner with the cartels for decades, and yet we only want to talk about the most recent issue and not the decades upon decades of them allowing drugs to flow into our country.

That being said, Fast n' Furious and all the operations done before and carried by this admin and the one before is a disgrace I do agree there.

a reply to: Vasa Croe

Wow, I can't believe there are still firearm manufacturers in Connecticut?!?! They need to flee to Western Pennsylvania before it's too late....oh, guess it is!

Seems pretty dang ridiculous to seize parts still in the manufacturing stage because they don't have serial numbers! I could see if they were being shipped/sold without but.....geeesh, when will it stop.

originally posted by: Sremmos80

The government actively purchased guns and sold them to Mexican drug cartels. This is fact.

So since they broke the law then no one has to follow it right?

Think that fly's in the face of the personal responsibility stuff i always hear.

Our gov has been a partner with the cartels for decades, and yet we only want to talk about the most recent issue and not the decades upon decades of them allowing drugs to flow into our country.

That being said, Fast n' Furious and all the operations done before and carried by this admin and the one before is a disgrace I do agree there.

If those charged to enforce the law don't follow it, why should anyone else?

As for fast n furious......somehow disgrace doesn't quite cover the level of contempt I feel about this.

Good post

You can always print a number on a blank piece of metal, then cut it to become a part.

a reply to: Boscowashisnamo

Yeah, you have way more experience than I. Thanks for the info. It's been a while since I read 922r, and I've never built any firearm on any platform.

My biggest question, is what other parts are required to be serialed. On an AR, my understanding is that it is only the lower reciever. It is also my understanding that the lower reciever is considered the registered part and is considered a functioning firearm by the atf, even though it is non functional.

So if they are unmarked receivers, they are unmarked guns? What other parts could they be talking about.

I know some bolts and mags etc are serialed, but I'd that a requirement?

I thought this would be common knowledge for an AR guy, but maybe I should just look it up.

a reply to: johnwick

If those charged to enforce the law don't follow it, why should anyone else?

Because personal responsibility, or is that just a buzz word we like to throw around?

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: johnwick

If those charged to enforce the law don't follow it, why should anyone else?

Because personal responsibility, or is that just a buzz word we like to throw around?

The point is, there is or isn't laws that must be followed.

If they don't have to be followed fine.

If they do, then I will be damned if those enforcing them better not follow every single one every time.

How is it OK for this person to fine or jail someone for not following laws, when they are breaking them?

It is that simple.

Laws either do matter, or they don't.

Which is it?

a reply to: ISawItFirst



" my understanding is that it is only the lower reciever. It is also my understanding that the lower reciever is considered the registered part and is considered a functioning firearm by the atf, even though it is non functional. "

You are correct that the lower receiver is stamped with it's serial number that identifies that specific firearm. Further, ATF Firearms Tech. Branch requires certain parts to be serialized, in use for an AR or for resale purposes, so that temperances for pressures aren't exceeded to certify a firearm in it's totality as "safe for use"(barrels, for example). Think of the requirements to be 922r compliant for AK, and apply that process for a company like Stag to manufacture ARs.
I have never needed this info before, as I build platforms with certified parts, and not being a manufacturer, have not fallen under the scope of the regs affecting Stag. If I can find a link listing stamped/embossed parts requirements, I will post it.

a reply to: johnwick

I do agree with what you are saying, and I think they matter and the Gov should follow them since they are the ones that make them.
But that is a pipe dream which is very sad.

Just find it funny that when those that scream personal responsibility about everything take the stance of since they did it I can too.

Not directed at you personally btw, but would I be wrong that you hold personal responsibility very high in beliefs?

What has stopped you from going on a crime spree?

originally posted by: Boscowashisnamo
a reply to: ISawItFirst



" my understanding is that it is only the lower reciever. It is also my understanding that the lower reciever is considered the registered part and is considered a functioning firearm by the atf, even though it is non functional. "

You are correct that the lower receiver is stamped with it's serial number that identifies that specific firearm. Further, ATF Firearms Tech. Branch requires certain parts to be serialized, in use for an AR or for resale purposes, so that temperances for pressures aren't exceeded to certify a firearm in it's totality as "safe for use"(barrels, for example). Think of the requirements to be 922r compliant for AK, and apply that process for a company like Stag to manufacture ARs.
I have never needed this info before, as I build platforms with certified parts, and not being a manufacturer, have not fallen under the scope of the regs affecting Stag. If I can find a link listing stamped/embossed parts requirements, I will post it.

That all makes sense to me. I've read a lot more on the subject and these are in fact receivers they are talking about. Nothing but AR15 recievers.

Apparently the law requires serialization within 7 days of completion of the reciever.

As for the AK, it has totally to do with country of manufacture. If I change the magazine, I am manufacturing a firearm by ATF standards. If I change the stock, the gun is illegal unless I change the front furniture, trigger group, etc. The magazine counts as 3 parts and in order to make the gun compliant, IIRC, 9 parts (on my model, it doesn't have all listed parts) must be US made.

Sounds like they are guilty of being stupid. Can you prove within any reasonable time frame when a reciever came off the mill? Or is all they have to go on their admission of non compliance.

Next I'll dig into the law itself. Would be sweet if someone linked it.

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: johnwick

I do agree with what you are saying, and I think they matter and the Gov should follow them since they are the ones that make them.
But that is a pipe dream which is very sad.

Just find it funny that when those that scream personal responsibility about everything take the stance of since they did it I can too.

Not directed at you personally btw, but would I be wrong that you hold personal responsibility very high in beliefs?

What has stopped you from going on a crime spree?

I don't steal or kill because it is wrong.

The law has no reason in my thinking at all.

I do whatever I want all the time.

It just so happens the things I want to do are not counter to current laws.

I'm a moral just person.

I wouldn't want others stealing or killing or drunk driving etc.

So I don't do them, because it would be wrong for me to do things I don't think others should.

As far as the gov breaking laws.

Why would I continue to live as if this is a civil society where we all try not to step on each others toes, when they walk around stepping on ties with every step?

Just saying, if this is truly a lawless society where some can just do whatever they want, all they need do is say so.

I am more than capable of adapting accordingly.

I can think of many that need some outside of the law justice imposed on them.

Any time they want to make that call we can go that route.

I didn't grow up rough, learn to live off the land, and serve 6 years in combat arms so I can be the only guy not getting to take advantage of a lawless society.

originally posted by: ISawItFirst

Can you prove within any reasonable time frame when a reciever came off the mill? Or is all they have to go on their admission of non compliance.

They most likely have daily part production logs and can extrapolate from them how many estimated pieces could be sitting unmarked while someone was on vacation.

Remember all the corruption that was exposed during the Sandy Hook debacle, and how state officials simply assumed powers that they never had to begin with, and how threats were made to not question them or face being investigated / harassed, and then you will know why the fed is doing this right now with Connecticut and on this state's behalf, is to continue the crack down on legal gun laws, and use any means including shady and illegal ones to keep up the pressure with the hopes of destroying legal gun owners rights, and the rights of businesses in every facet of firearms policies.

Obama and the state of Dis-Connecticut have a team relationship in how they are going after gun rights, and have been doing so since SH. They have been using the ATF as a personal army to war against legal gun laws as shown time and time again, including the recent ammunitions bans that were overturned. Plus the ATF had already planned on bypassing public discussion of that ammo ban by the leaked document which showed they never intended to follow legal procedure in implementing that ammo ban in the first place.

Dis-Connecticut is one of the few states willing to cooperate with Obama and his Obamunists in regards to how far they will go to destroying the public's ability to acquire firearms in that state, and this was proven by how the state patrol chief (Officer Dumpsy) showed such disregard for the actual law relating to due process during the SH shenanigans.

Every law that was passed after Sandy Hook were all unconstitutional and were all done anyway using the associated tragedy as a launch pad and a shield against scrutiny to do all kinds of behind closed doors attacks on legal gun owners and gun manufacturers.

If the ATF is involved, they will doing things above the law, behind peoples backs, behind closed doors, and while doing that, warning their agents not to disclose the illegalities of the things they are doing or face severe punishment. (This was also exposed not too long ago that they were warning their own ATF agents about).

This punishment they are doing against this gun manufacturer is a trifle compared to the stuff they are doing right now and that they have planned that we DONT know about.