How Does One "Make Themselves" Believe?

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Rex282

nothing is as it seems and is subject to change by forces outside your sphere of influence...see.... it's easy...

What is subject to change by forces outside your sphere of influence? Nothing? or Everything?

Everything...

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
Ah. I see. I'm uninvited.

Not necessarily. You're seeking; that means you may find. If at any time in the future you become a believer, you already are one now... you just haven't discovered it yet. Something will happen, some event that makes you think, or changes your viewpoint on something, and it'll all just click, and you'll very nearly become a different person. A different personality, at least. Your life's course will start focusing on your purification, like chelation cleaning out toxins, bit by bit sandpapering away all the spines we grow in self-defense that keep us all separated. Or, you may never experience anything of the sort, and never believe until it's too late and everyone's forced to believe by having it proven to them. What makes the difference? Whether God accepts you or not.

Yes, I realize that what I'm saying sounds like you have absolutely no control over whether you end up a believer, but your choices are the only thing that matter. You have 100% of that control, everyone does. Remember that truly having the belief that Jesus was God made into man so he could make a bridge for everyone he deems worthy to join him in the afterlife after becoming the only human ever to die without sin will get you into Heaven. It's the only thing that will get you in, that belief. People who go around doing evil all the time aren't wanted by God at all, and he'll make sure they never believe so they don't get rewarded with eternal life. If you're a good person, kind, compassionate, charitable, if you truly honestly care about others and would never do anything to harm anyone, if you'd sacrifice your own needs to satisfy someone else's, if you love everyone like you love yourself, you're exactly the kind of person God wants... and it's virtually certain that he will make sure you become a believer. Somehow.

That's all I was trying to get across.

a reply to: bb23108
See my post just before this one.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer
Hell as purification, to cleanse souls a bit more slowly than Jesus would've done it for them, is a possibility. Perhaps scripture means their sins will burn in hell forever but they themselves may someday get out of it. Maybe hell separates sinner from sin, but it's so incredibly unpleasant to go through that God decided only the really bad souls should have to go through it, and he came up with his Christ aspect to accomplish that, creating the entire universe just so good people didn't have to go through hellfire to become worthy of eternal life, and all you had to do was be a good person to prove yourself worthy of it, which got you invited to be a believer. Yes? Maybe?

originally posted by: Thought Provoker
a reply to: bb23108
See my post just before this one.

I don't see where that speaks of the first and most important of Jesus' great commandments. This is what I am saying is very typical of what I see these days - basically ignoring, or at least, glossing over, Jesus' fundamental message of moment to moment love-communion with the Divine.

Is this not the most important aspect of Christianity?

a reply to: bb23108

But I did mention it, there near the end... "if you love everyone like you love yourself, you're exactly the kind of person God wants." Be that person, and you get invited. That's Christianity, right there, boiled down to its essence. All that stuff about hating gay people, for example (while staying clean-shaven), is as far from Christ as you can get. If being gay's a sin, and telling a lie is a sin, and both will keep you out of heaven, then literally nobody's getting in. If the liars can be forgiven, so can the shavers and the gays, and I defy any Christian to prove that logic wrong, or to keep using their tired old arguments to justify their need to oppose something. Sorry... I go off sometimes on certain subjects. But Christ is all about love, period, 24/7 love for everyone. That's why I'm typing all this: someone might listen, and then I would have helped them. I sure ain't doing it for typing practice.

originally posted by: Thought Provoker
But I did mention it, there near the end... "if you love everyone like you love yourself, you're exactly the kind of person God wants." Be that person, and you get invited. That's Christianity, right there, boiled down to its essence.

Yes, that is Jesus' second great commandment, but his first one is relative to one's direct relationship with God. I still see nothing about this full loving of God with the whole body-mind, heart, and spirit. Is this not what Jesus' first commandment says?

Is this not the foundation of Christianity?

a reply to: Thought Provoker

Biblicalally speaking, Hell is just where God sends your soul to be destroyed. It's not a cleansing, nor a lesson. It's nothing more than God utterly getting rid of any evidence of your existence. It is only eternal in the sense that you're gone forever because you've been killed in both body and soul. This is what scripture says.

If you want to propose things that don't align with scripture. Fine. As an atheist I don't care what stretches you make in your beliefs. They only further solidify my notion that the whole thing has no grounds in fact and everything to do with personal convictions and feelings.

a reply to: bb23108

First commandment: love God as much as you can ("with all your heart," etc). Second commandment: love everyone as much as you can ("like you love yourself"). Aren't those basically the same thing? Doesn't "everyone" include God? I've always found it curious how people miss that, and also miss noticing that every one of the Ten Commandments is a specialization of "love everyone." If you love someone, you aren't going to kill him, lie about him, steal from him, etc etc etc. If you love God, you'll remember the Sabbath and have no other gods before him, etc. And you'll honor your parents, since they're part of "everyone" too. Everything is about love. Everything Jesus taught could be condensed into that one word. Everything else is detail, it's just specifics on how to love everyone, including God. And nothing explains love better than 1 Corinthians 13. It's a great read.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
a reply to: Thought Provoker

Biblicalally speaking, Hell is just where God sends your soul to be destroyed. It's not a cleansing, nor a lesson. It's nothing more than God utterly getting rid of any evidence of your existence. It is only eternal in the sense that you're gone forever because you've been killed in both body and soul. This is what scripture says.

If you want to propose things that don't align with scripture. Fine. As an atheist I don't care what stretches you make in your beliefs. They only further solidify my notion that the whole thing has no grounds in fact and everything to do with personal convictions and feelings.

I will say this, I think there are some people who just don't deserve going to heaven. But I'm not the judge of where they end up.

Let me also add this, I am not saying that directed to anyone on this thread, this comes from personal observation of some people that I have known in my life.

If some people, not people on this thread, have made life hell on earth for others, then why not face the reciprocity of hell for themselves?

The Law of Reciprocity

The Law of Reciprocity as we're using it here, is the Universal Law that determines precisely what is received in return and shows up in physical form as a result of what is broadcast or given out. So the Law of Reciprocity looking at it in this way, requires us to send out or project a vibrational frequency which the Universe, God, Higher Power or whatever you choose to refer to Source as, reciprocates outcomes back to us based on our individual choice as to what we project.

I think that if some people have been so egregiously wicked in their life, have tormented and destroyed others' lives, why not make them face up to what they did?

Again, NOT directed toward anyone on this thread.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

It's nothing more than God utterly getting rid of any evidence of your existence.

When I was a kid I heard about some people who went to hell. But when I look at my bookcase I see books written by these people who "went to hell".

So when is the book burning supposed to take place?

a reply to: WarminIndy

We all wish and/or hope people get what they deserve. And I sincerely hope the people behind that website you linked get theirs. Nothing but a lot of hippy dippy talk. They are painting a pretty picture with huge pages full of feel good text. Great. Awesome. A bunch of conjecture. A bunch of new age crap about how to gain happiness, spirituality, and last but not least, wealth. And hell yeah, you can even donate to them or go to their online store. Where things get even more mumbo jumbo with huge walls of texts to ease you into that 600 dollar valued purchase that's been marked down to 400 dollars. No wait! That has a strike through! For only around $200 dollars you can awaken yourself.

You can awaken yourself to the scam and maybe learn how to scam others..

Like I said. We'd all like for people to get exactly what they deserve. I'm not sure what point you were trying to make other than that.

originally posted by: Involutionist
a reply to: bb23108

Wow. I am having a difficult time with this part of your post because although warminindy and I often don't see eye to eye on various matters, I certainly have never seen him/her preaching hate. When we have exchanged views, s/he has always been very considerate and well-informed and responsive.

What am I missing here?

The Middle East Threads...

I am very much against IDEOLOGIES that allow for the harm of others.

I am very much against the IDEOLOGIES that hide behind the mask of Christianity.
I am very much against the IDEOLOGIES that hide behind the mask of Islam.
I am very much against the IDEOLOGIES that hide behind the mask of every religion.

Ideologies are political. When any group of people want to establish an ideology of force or violence, then I am opposed to it. Some people are not able to see the political ideology in Shariah. Then the same people complain about ISIS and Boko Harum. The same people then throw around the term Zionism, against Jewish people that they don't even know. Then the same people decry Christianity, but then Christians are expected to not respond, while ISIS continues to behead people while Boko Harum kills little girls, all under the authority of Islamic political ideology.

I respectfully ask you to learn what political ideologies are. As a rational, and I hope to presume compassionate, individual, surely you can see the frustration on this planet over the double standards. I have denounced Christians who use political ideologies, the same as I have for any other group of people.

But I cannot say nothing, this is 2015 and there is no reason for a group to execute ideologies from the Middle Ages. How do you then propose we deal with the problem of Islamic fascism if we are to say that we are espousing humanitarianism?

Everyone on this planet has a fundamental right to practice religion or not practice religion. Not only is it in our Constitution but the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights

Article 2. Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 18. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Islam doesn't allow that.

But when those ideologies then harm others, then what do you suggest we do about it? Shall we give them a pass and call it hatred to ask them to be accountable, just as you do for Christians, for their ideology?

Someone has to say something. And it isn't hatred, but I am very opposed to any ideology that allows 275 little girls to be burned to death, simply for not wearing burquas. What is your solution to this problem?

I don't know or care if you have Muslim friends, they have the right to their religion, but there comes a point that they are going to have to address those problems if we intend to live as a global community and if we are to claim ourselves as humane and compassionate.

Your solution?

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Matthew 10:28, you mean? "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell?" Define "destruction." That definition determines everything. It might mean "completely eradicating from existence." But it also might mean "changing form so radically that the original isn't recognizable anymore." Therefore, I have to assume that I don't know enough to say with certainty exactly what will happen to souls in hell, whether they'll cease to be, exist forever in pure agony, or be burned with some form of spiritual fire and sulfur until they're pure enough to get out. But God being the loving guy he is, that last option is what he would choose if it was possible. I just don't know if it's possible. I'm only human.

There is no way to prove or disprove "the whole thing," by the way, whether it's grounded in fact or not. My beliefs don't shape reality, though. It is what it is no matter what words I put on this page, and we have no way of seeing it ourselves. We can only go on faith. Ask yourself why anyone would choose to believe something that has no empirical evidence to support it? What could make someone ignore logic and reason and observation and the scientific method, especially someone like me who otherwise cares a very great deal about logic and reason and observation and the scientific method? I even believe God used evolution to create all life because it's the only conclusion that fits all the facts and my faith in his existence, my illogical, irrational, unfounded, inexplicable faith. Nearly anything is possible when you're missing a glossary for scriptural terms, though, isn't it? We don't even know how to define "destruction." We don't know enough about reality to do so with reliability. All I know is, I (the consummate scientist) believe it, I didn't choose to believe it, and the only explanation for that as far as I'm concerned is, "it's real." Otherwise I'd have forgotten all about it long ago, dismissed it along with flat earths and governments that care about their citizens. God put the belief into me because he wants me up there with him, because he cares about me, because we're on the same side. All I had to do was be myself. And I'm rambling. Must be bedtime.

a reply to: pthena

People can't have it both ways.

They can't proclaim the Bible, and Christian narrative is the word of God. They can't claim that scripture is the final (and divinely inspired) authority. But then make claims that go against what those scriptures say. Come up with their own dogmas and flavors of what Christianity is.

Do people have powerful experiences that they feel come from God himself? You bet. Does that mean they actually do? Absolutely not. And I'm not saying that from my atheist perspective.

The utter lack of consistency with Christians is one of the reasons I became an atheist. Not only a lack of consistency between Christians themselves and how they interpret scripture but the lack of consistency they all have with their holy texts. To add on top of that, how those consistencies have changed over the years.

It's all dogma/personal feelings. A lot of them feel persecuted by the world. That's because yesterdays dogmas haven't evolved to reflect today's world. Yesterday it was perfectly Godly to burn this or that person at the stake because of Biblical reasons. Today they don't do that and point back at history and say, they weren't true Christians. Tomorrow they won't have any problems with gay marriage, but will point back to today and say, "those weren't real Christians".

Kinda jumping around but I think you'll get my point.

And I don't mean to broad-brush all Christians. I am of course speaking in general terms. Interesting to note though, if they all were the same, there would never be any evolution in their religion and it would have died out centuries ago.

a reply to: Thought Provoker

Not just that verse, but many. If you're interested, check out that "Hell Know" link from my previous post to you. I would go into it here but it's actually a pretty lengthy Bible/History study. A Time consuming read, to be sure. But very good. At least in my opinion.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
a reply to: WarminIndy

We all wish and/or hope people get what they deserve. And I sincerely hope the people behind that website you linked get theirs. Nothing but a lot of hippy dippy talk. They are painting a pretty picture with huge pages full of feel good text. Great. Awesome. A bunch of conjecture. A bunch of new age crap about how to gain happiness, spirituality, and last but not least, wealth. And hell yeah, you can even donate to them or go to their online store. Where things get even more mumbo jumbo with huge walls of texts to ease you into that 600 dollar valued purchase that's been marked down to 400 dollars. No wait! That has a strike through! For only around $200 dollars you can awaken yourself.

You can awaken yourself to the scam and maybe learn how to scam others..

Like I said. We'd all like for people to get exactly what they deserve. I'm not sure what point you were trying to make other than that.

I try to find links that are not Christian, just to make it a fair discussion. If I linked to sites that are Christian then people would say I was only looking at one side of the argument.

The point I am trying to make is this, some people are really bad and have made life hell on earth for some. Sometimes I wish there were time machines to send those people back in time and do something to them to change the course they took.

But we can't do that.

I just don't know what to do about the frustration. Let me give you an example of an individual that I do know about, this individual that I know was raised in an environment of extreme neglect, then this individual grew up and had children, following the same pattern of neglect towards their children. This individual left their child with the other neglectful parent who was extremely violent.

The other parent then tortured and beat the child until the child was almost dead. The child was only 3 years-old. When the child's grandmother came to visit the other parent, discovered the child was non-responsive, took the child to the hospital and it was revived, then the hospital had to send the child to a larger children's hospital in Dayton, Ohio, where the child was then put in a medically induced coma because the pain the child endured from not only being beaten, but tortured on the stove, tied up, then tossed out onto the frozen ground naked, in February.

As the individual called me to come from Cincinnati to Dayton to see the child, the child was bandaged completely, on morphine, broken bones were put in casts, on life support. Then I hear the grandmother of the child say "Don't blame me, sometimes sons turn out bad no matter how you raise them". Then I hear the individual say "I hope he gets what he deserves".

So now, because the other parent was arrested, I had to go to Social Services to discuss with them the individual and what could have been done to prevent this. I had known the individual when she was a little girl, the community we lived in was small, her own mother had dumped her off on me for 4 months and the school became involved because I had to go to Social Services at that time to tell them the girl was staying with me, and yet I was not being paid anything and she was not my foster child. At that time, Social Services then removed the girl, she went to stay with relatives in California.

Then she came back when she was an adult. I had only recently reconnected with her and went to visit her several times before this incident with her child. When I went to Social Services the second time, I had to actually tell them that if this case was a failure it was because they had dealt with this family since long before I ever knew her and they did nothing except remove her when it was too late, but then said nothing when she came back, in the same system.

I pleaded with them to do something more appropriate, because the trial of the father was so big for our area, it was under media coverage from Dayton, Cincinnati, Fort Wayne, Indianapolis, Columbus and Cleveland. I begged them to please intervene and help this girl, because she sure wasn't listening to me. From my visit to Social Services, the prosecutor then charged her with neglect and then made her follow a plan to get her life back on the right path, because she had two other children.

The father was charged with 23 felony counts and only got 16 years, some of which will be reduced for good behavior. In the meantime, the little girl is still affected to this day. Had the little girl died, there would be no way to change it.

Society has put the father in jail, but society couldn't change him before he did it. And that's what is heartbreaking, that we live in a society that claims to be law abiding, claims to have the best citizens, claims to be humane, claims to have all the necessary education to make good citizens. And yet, every day we hear more and more just like this.

I tried a long time ago, but because I didn't have the law on my side, I had to allow her to go back to her mother, for Social Services to not do its job. And it breaks my heart because I thought I was the failure for her.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

if they all were the same, there would never be any evolution in their religion and it would have died out centuries ago.

Even when I was pre-ministry major in college, it was understood that heresy and the orthodox response to heresy was the heart that kept the blood pumping.

a reply to: WarminIndy

I try to find links that are not Christian, just to make it a fair discussion. If I linked to sites that are Christian then people would say I was only looking at one side of the argument.

The point I am trying to make is this, some people are really bad and have made life hell on earth for some. Sometimes I wish

That's what WakeUpBeer means by trying to have it both ways. That law of reciprocity states that people here and now get what's coming to them. And it's obvious to you that that isn't happening.

There is a Psalm entitled "Why do the wicked prosper?" which makes it seem that justice happens in the king's court. But that doesn't happen either.

So Christianity has "the last judgment" that's supposed to put all to right. So if there is no hell as punishment, then justice is never dealt out equitably.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
a reply to: pthena

People can't have it both ways.

They can't proclaim the Bible, and Christian narrative is the word of God. They can't claim that scripture is the final (and divinely inspired) authority. But then make claims that go against what those scriptures say. Come up with their own dogmas and flavors of what Christianity is.

Do people have powerful experiences that they feel come from God himself? You bet. Does that mean they actually do? Absolutely not. And I'm not saying that from my atheist perspective.

The utter lack of consistency with Christians is one of the reasons I became an atheist. Not only a lack of consistency between Christians themselves and how they interpret scripture but the lack of consistency they all have with their holy texts. To add on top of that, how those consistencies have changed over the years.

It's all dogma/personal feelings. A lot of them feel persecuted by the world. That's because yesterdays dogmas haven't evolved to reflect today's world. Yesterday it was perfectly Godly to burn this or that person at the stake because of Biblical reasons. Today they don't do that and point back at history and say, they weren't true Christians. Tomorrow they won't have any problems with gay marriage, but will point back to today and say, "those weren't real Christians".

Kinda jumping around but I think you'll get my point.

And I don't mean to broad-brush all Christians. I am of course speaking in general terms. Interesting to note though, if they all were the same, there would never be any evolution in their religion and it would have died out centuries ago.

Do you expect Christianity to be one single dogma?

When you were a Christian, I am sure that you were in one particular denomination and then you saw other Christians with different dogmas, and did it confuse you as to why they weren't following yours?

That would be pretty dogmatic in itself.

Heresies are called heresies by the other side. Does that mean they are heresies?

To claim another has heresy is dogmatic and so is it dogmatism to leave because of perceived heresies. Inconsistencies arise not because of inconsistency, but dogmatism.

It is dogmatism to say that all Christians must observe Christmas on December 25, when that is only from the Roman Catholicism calendar, even though Eastern Orthodox, Byzantine, Coptic, Ethiopian and Greek Orthodox has never celebrated December 25, and yet they are as old as Roman Catholicism, they began at the same time.

That is a tradition, nothing more.

Quakers were considered heretics, the Lollards were considered heretics, but who was calling them heretics? Christianity is not one single dogma and has never been and can never be. To assume such is really ignorance of the history of Christianity that is more than just Roman Catholicism.

Did you leave because not all Christians followed the traditions of your own denomination?

Just asking, not criticizing.