How Does One "Make Themselves" Believe?

a reply to: TzarChasm

overreacting much? ketsuko was basically praying for you right there and you spit in her face. you dont believe in her god or worship him. okay, fair enough. but thats no reason to take her positive intentions and good will and act as they are an insult because clearly thats not how she intended it.

maybe you should take a breather dear.

Maybe she should explain to me how I'm not on "the right path". I don't see it as a positive intention, I see it as an underhanded jab that I'm so far out in left field she can't even see me.

I want some honesty. I don't need "her God" or "her path" that she feels are "right" and "my only salvation."
Her post is a "pitying stance" saying "tsk, aw, poor Buzzy...she just doesn't get it....sigh. "

And sorry, but I have a right to ask her what her real intention is.
DISRAELI and others have challenged MY intention, and now I'm calling out ketsuko to clarify herself. If I have misunderstood her, then it is ON HER to explain it in a way that I understand.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

you come across as pretty defensive right now. no one is challenging or assaulting your way of life or how you think. you requested contributions in the subject of spirituality and how it is acquired and she answered your question. then she wished you the best of luck in your journey, in her own way. seriously, woosah...

a reply to: TzarChasm

Thanks for the reminder.
G'nite, all.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

she never pointed you out specifically except in wishing you good fortune. the rest was a general observation, not unlike many very similar observations you yourself have made on these forums. lets play fair now...

a reply to: Dr1Akula

Beautiful.
If this is not spirituality then what is?

Everybody has his own method of raising consciousness, finding their purpose and bettering themselves like, religion, science, arts, history, sex, intense living etc.

But everything that touches our ''soul'' , can be a spiritual thing.

That.

Thank you!!!

a reply to: FlyersFan

I don't see the need to believe in a soul to believe in a God. God could exist without us having souls.

That is an irrational statement. Indulge me for a minute. The soul or our higher nature/self is the connection to god. You could not contemplate a god without a soul. My understanding is that we all have souls therefore we have a god connection. I am not an AI or computing machine running on software where god would be a set of outcomes based on some equations my "creator/builder" inputted.

A tree could no more exist if man was not there to witness it. Awareness causes the collapse of the wave function.
To conjecture that anything could exist without man observing it highly speculative. Thats my observation, not a belief or faith. Its all good, we all will "get it" one day. There are many paths but all truly lead back to Source.

a reply to: TzarChasm

It's a model. And like with any model, I can give you some (circumstantial) evidence it is true - evidence, of course, only valid for you if I use the model you use. If I do not, you will probably do what most people do that made their model into their reality: discard the other model(s) as delusions at best, insanity or madness at worst.

Let's assume you are fond of the scientific model. A fairly safe bet, as it is a model / religion accepted by large numbers of people (at least in my reality). If you are used to that model and I want to convince you that the milky way might only exist because it is observed I probably need to use YOUR model, or you will simply discard my line of thoughts.

So, let's discuss quantum physics a bit; assuming you're into the 'scientific' model you probably will find this article worth a read. If you ever read "What the bleep" etc. you will find many more examples of the power of observation, for example the (in)famous research on the way water seems to be susceptible to thoughts of an observer. Actually, even in a bone dry business like encryption we use a variant of this phenomenon to exchange secret keys with a built in mechanism to detect if somebody 'listened in'.

Did I convince you?

BTW: you assume that the milky way exists because humans observed it - but perhaps it does because God observed it. Had he not done so, it would not be. Or another possibility is that it exists because it was observed by some grey alien, who knows..

a reply to: BuzzyWigs
One cannot make one's self believe. You believe or you don't... and you only will believe if God has invited you to be among the believers.

John 6:44-47
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

God will not call people to him unless he considers them acceptable. If you don't believe, there are two future paths for you: continuing to not believe, or becoming a believer. If you end up as a believer, it's because God knew you would end up a believer, and thus, he called you. If you stay a non-believer your whole life, he knows that too, and you won't be called. If someone keeps being their good ol' human-nature-controlled self (i.e., regularly preferring satisfying their own needs rather than others' or not caring who gets hurt as long as they get what they want), he'll never want that person to be a believer and he will prevent them from believing.

So what it boils down to is, if you want to believe that Jesus Christ died to save you from Hell, you're probably already saved, or you will be once you formally ask Jesus to include you in the after-party. If that doesn't work either, then for some reason that neither you nor I could guess at, you aren't considered worthy, and all your wishing that you did believe will come to naught. And if you want to believe that there is no God and no Jesus and no Hell at all, you'll take that belief to your grave... but not beyond it. Everyone will find out the real truth; eventually everyone will believe. But for some it will come too late to help them. If you're worthy, you'll be invited to believe. Otherwise not, and no amount of talking will make you believe. All those who end up believing will have eternal life, so God wants to make sure only worthy people gain that benefit. Everyone else goes down the shaft into the incinerator.

If you want to believe, if you can believe, you'd better inquire within your heart about it soon, because there's almost no time left. If you can't or don't want to believe, and never change from that non-belief, then... I hope you had a nice life, because the other 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of your eternal existence won't be nice at all. Sorry. But if you don't believe me, that statement shouldn't annoy you. Just say "Yeah, right!" and carry on. If it makes you feel hatred toward me, well... now you know why you aren't allowed to believe. Don't shoot the messenger.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

thats a pretty big eyeball to collapse an entire universe worth of matter into particle form.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs

um......

.......
*thinks up response*.....
......
okay??

You seem to be in a defensive/condescending and/or adversial mood. Am I reading your post correctly?

No

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs

Very, very possible that I am not.
Just thought I'd ask - to clarify.

Yes it is very, very possible you are not reading my post correctly.

The double slit experiment is paramount in the reality of the material realm.It’s results goes against mans observation of their world.It is the strongest evidence of the effect of faith (observation) has on perception (belief) and even how trying to pin those “constructs” down are futile.

The great physicist Niels Bohr said of quantum physics non locality “it is not the we do not know the facts of the individual particles exact location, it is that there are no facts”.In other words the problem is not what we know by observation(epistemological) it is about what is true(ontological).It is as meaningless as what the taste is of the number 5.

This is the great dilemma physicist are trying to crack the code on however it cannot be solved because of the act of observation.That doesn’t mean physicist shouldn’t or won’t try it just means the search is for something that cannot be found by searching.

It as is Shakespeare said….”the search is the thing”….okay maybe he didn’t really say that however it is all mankind has at it’s disposal.Mans nature is to perceive(believe) by observation(faith).That is all they can do.That is the only “knowing” however that knowledge is not the truth of reality by the very act it performs.

The fact of mans observations is they believe in faith their Belief System religion.That is an unchangeable system within the system.No manner of perceiving by observation will make the number 5 have a taste.The religion-religious will continue to observe by their perception.and the scientific-religious will continue to perceive by their observation.It all ends in the same place…unreality…not the truth.

That is not nihilism it is reality.When the observation ceases and the particles are freed to do their thang reality exists as truth. Reality’s purpose is to “live in truth in whatever form it takes… not to be observed.

a reply to: Rex282

Okay, then - can you please help me understand?

a reply to: Thought Provoker

You believe or you don't... and you only will believe if God has invited you to be among the believers.

Ah. I see.

I'm uninvited.

Or not even on the mailing list, and never got an invitation to begin with.

Right?
Sounds like a sucky party to me.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I posted some comments on Wifibrains thread:
Eternal life, the cosmos and sacrifice
that post and another below it.

Since Rex and I have similar religion, you can check mine and see if helps you understand Rex's.

I don't feel confident trying to use particle physics models. Simple biology is easier for me to use as a model.

originally posted by: pthena
...............
I don't feel confident trying to use particle physics models. Simple biology is easier for me to use as a model.

The quantum (particle) physics model of the double slit experiment is fairly easy to grasp....nothing is as it seems and is subject to change by forces outside your sphere of influence...see.... it's easy...

a reply to: Rex282

nothing is as it seems and is subject to change by forces outside your sphere of influence...see.... it's easy...

What is subject to change by forces outside your sphere of influence? Nothing? or Everything?

a reply to: bb23108

Wow. I am having a difficult time with this part of your post because although warminindy and I often don't see eye to eye on various matters, I certainly have never seen him/her preaching hate. When we have exchanged views, s/he has always been very considerate and well-informed and responsive.

What am I missing here?

The Middle East Threads...

originally posted by: Thought Provoker
So what it boils down to is, if you want to believe that Jesus Christ died to save you from Hell, you're probably already saved, or you will be once you formally ask Jesus to include you in the after-party. If that doesn't work either, then for some reason that neither you nor I could guess at, you aren't considered worthy, and all your wishing that you did believe will come to naught. And if you want to believe that there is no God and no Jesus and no Hell at all, you'll take that belief to your grave... but not beyond it. Everyone will find out the real truth; eventually everyone will believe. But for some it will come too late to help them. If you're worthy, you'll be invited to believe. Otherwise not, and no amount of talking will make you believe. All those who end up believing will have eternal life, so God wants to make sure only worthy people gain that benefit. Everyone else goes down the shaft into the incinerator.

If you want to believe, if you can believe, you'd better inquire within your heart about it soon, because there's almost no time left. If you can't or don't want to believe, and never change from that non-belief, then... I hope you had a nice life, because the other 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of your eternal existence won't be nice at all. Sorry. But if you don't believe me, that statement shouldn't annoy you. Just say "Yeah, right!" and carry on. If it makes you feel hatred toward me, well... now you know why you aren't allowed to believe. Don't shoot the messenger.

What I don't understand is why this need to believe in the Salvation message is what is so frequently spoken of by Christians, and so very little time is spent really considering Jesus' two great commandments. As least this is how it seems to me, especially around here.

Jesus never mentions the need for belief in his two great commandments - only love. How can one love God so fully, with the whole body-mind, heart, and spirit? Through just belief? No, Jesus is saying to love God NOW, and such love requires a real relationship with God, not just a belief that God is going to save you after you die if only you believe in Jesus.

So how did belief in a future salvation take precedence over Jesus' two great commandments - to love God completely, and one's neighbor as oneself, in daily life here on earth?

I understand how Paul of Tarsus proclaimed this salvation message in order to build up the early Christian church - but why do Christians buy (and sell) this as the primary message of Jesus? Doesn't Jesus' two great commandments take precedence over this matter of belief in a future salvation? And if you agree with this, why is this not the main message that is brought to others, rather than some message about being fried eternally unless one believes, that only the elite are chosen, etc., etc.?

In other words, isn't the message of love much more in line with Jesus' actual intentions, as well as the nature of the God he was in unity with, and not this future salvation message, with threats of eternal damnation, except for the chosen ones?

a reply to: Thought Provoker

I guess your God wants to send me to Hell? Believable, since there are plenty passages in the Bible that describe his willingness to take actions against people that will ensure they're sent to hell. Lying spirits in the mouths of prophets, strong delusion, etc. Merciful indeed! As a former Christian, I can only assume if God exists he lead me out of his midst. Makes sense I guess. For a while there I was sure I'd end up in Hell for asking too many questions.

I don't really care though. Hell is not eternal torment. (Hell Know)

One of those things I discovered asking objective questions about my faith, and keeping bias out of the equation when seeking answers.

Now I'm an agnostic atheist.

Not trying to mock you personally though. Just being blunt about my opinion.