Has iran surpassed North Korea as 'the' rogue nation'?

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: woodwardjnr

Probably similar to yours. Trying to cull the wheat from the chaff amongst the PR machines of both sides. Traditional media, internet sites, so on. All based on personal life experiences and attempt to make sense of it all...well, a little bit of sense of it.

As a basic tenet, I operate on the basis that the premise must match or at least resonate with my life experiences. If they do not, then they are relegated to the theoretical bin.

While that is fine and understandable, there are people in this thread (Sublime and myself for example) that are basing things off our life experience dealing directly with Iran in these type of situations. I don't expect that to persuade you one way or the other though.

This thread, for example, has shown me where many of the posters operate. Some point out the same or worse flaws of others. Some marginalize or minimize, others use legal arguments.

Yet some still recognize the complexity of it all and point out neither side can claim superiority or hold themselves above others. Some recognize that while Iran was in legally right, their actions may not have been the best and is starting to cause concern, yet, has thus far given no reason for any action other than diplomatic.

Almost no one has touched on the incredible strategic importance of the Strait or Iran's inclination to use it as a leverage to achieve their goals.

That is because it should go without saying I think and I have pointed that at this point, I would be on alert and on the lookout for further incidents, to which if the same continues, I would re-adjust assessment.

There is a strong Chinese connection between Iran and N.K. as well. In Iran's case it is a huge oil deal between the two. Iran get some circumvention around the embargos and China gets cheaper oil paid in their near worthless Yuan.

True, and I'll add all but one of Iran's midget submarines came from N.K..

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14
How does that make "us" rogue but Iran rogue. Us??

Nice try.

As stated many times before the dynamics of the cold war are not applicable today. Different players, different times.

The unending diatribe of look at what's been done in the past as some justification for todays actions are nothing but smoke and attempt to introduce some guilt trip which too many have bought in to.

It's almost a template, in your case.

One thread introduced get your rebuttal based on the last century. Let that one go-except learning from it-there's enough today to address without diving into the history books...(which no one is without 'crimes' committed)

a reply to: nwtrucker

I think the word "rogue" is off completely in describing IRAN.

According to YOURDICTIONARY: rogue: an unprincipled and unreliable, deceitful person, scoundrel or rascal.

The US, Iran and the Shah when he was still alive, were best buddies... and even the son went to school in America. Then the Shah dies and their religious factor takes over with the Ayatollah Khomeini...a real nutcase...and it went religious fanaticism.

It changed with the Iran Hostage event...they took 'em, we sent troops to rescue them, one of our planes crashes killing 1/2 of special forces, failed to rescue our American hostages, scooped up our dead and left the desert.

Then that got them more ticked at us after learning we were on Iranian soil with a crashed plane trying to get our captured guys. Then the Ayatollah died (really good for their country to lose that nut).

They went from a king-ish ruler the Shah, to a religious fanatic the Ayatollah, then back to a leader (President). That's different from having a dictatorship like dynasty in N.K. in a straight line from the nutso father to son to son to son killing all the old relatives and anyone else who ticked 'em off ......

Iran outwardly portrays their "willingness" to be part of the "team"...whereas the real rouge is N.K. who wouldnt talk, listen, or agree to anything...and will do what they want, when they want and how they want.

Iran...and much as or as little as they do...even if they don't agree...at least TALKS and listens...not necessarily cooperating all the tme...but they are far from rogue.

If they were a rogue nation...they wouldn't be talking to the rest of the world in any talks...they'd be firing everywhere without regard.

So...rogue, no. A threat? Possibly...but I think they are too smart to start stuff. They would lose their country in one "CLICK!" It would become a parking lot to park our planes...

originally posted by: combatmaster
a reply to: haman10

Secondly , on the issue of hamas and hezbollah , you HAVE to understand that muslim countries (actually most of the UN including the members of NAM ) don't categorize them as terrorist organizations . so you're argument worth zilch , period .

But do you? im curious...

human shields, death penalty for the 'crime' of homosexuality, rigged 'elections'...... do you still believe they are not terrorists?

PS. can i ask, is your username borrowed from the purim story?

homosexuality ? is that all you've got ? US was not a heaven for homos if i remember right . are you forgetting your own history ? what did you guys do to your gay community till 70s or so ?

there is no death penalty for those people , they either undergo a sex-change operation , or are given to a psychologist for eval. i don't support this myself TBH .

here is a question : why incarceration rate in US is higher than most of the world and is higher than Iran by several folds ?

rigged elections ? lol . yeah cause elections in US is completely fair . thats why only 50% of the people go and vote , whereas dum dum Iranians who cannot chnage anything regarding their fate by elections , turnout about 80% .

they're indeed dumb people .

originally posted by: ThePlusQ
Iran is not on par with N.K, in fact Iran is more evil than N.K and has more sinister intentions if you just take a quick look at the mayham happening in the Middle East especially in the past decade from Iraq to Lebanon to Syria to the failed attempts in Saudi & Bahrain to Yemen, you will notice that Iran's militias which hold different names are in the center of the action.

N.K is not funding thugs in neighboring countries to wreck havoc and forcefully convert the residents to the shia relegion.
An un-nuclear Iran is a menace to the Middle East, a nuclear Iran will be a global menace.

Yep . Iran is totally evil . our history also tells you that . for thousands of years we were the most powerful country on planet earth and look how many massacres we committed !!

oh wait , we did NOT .

on the other hand there is a country whose younger than my grandfather's grandfather (if he was alive) -300 yrs old- and it has been involved in almost all the wars humanity has had since .

you're totally right .

We also shot down your air liners . oh wait ! we toppled your governments . wait again ! we bombed you . we violated your territorial integrity . Wait wait wait !

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: Azureblue

My understanding is USCG ships are often used as support vessels for the U.S. Navy. Tasked and controlled by the Pentagon for the duration of that cruise.(?)

Not sure about that though. It would explain their presence overseas....

Primarily used as diplomatic (goodwill port visits) combined with augmenting support to our interests (specifically they were tasked early on to protect Iraq's oil platforms) if the need arises and the Navy cannot respond.

"We also shot down your air liners . oh wait ! we toppled your governments . wait again ! we bombed you . we violated your territorial integrity . Wait wait wait !"



If that so then it doesnt give Iran the right to participate in the mass killing of the Syrian people just because they have a differnent reglion, doesnt give iran the right to control Lebanon and weaken its goverment systamatically while pumping the hezbolla militia with money and weapons, doest give Iran the right to hold the decsion of peace and war in its hand and deciding the fate of a whole nation (Lebanon) against israel. The list continues down to Bahrain, Yemen, etc.

It's about time the western and eastern public know the real intentions of Iran.

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14
How does that make "us" rogue but Iran rogue. Us??

Nice try.

As stated many times before the dynamics of the cold war are not applicable today. Different players, different times.

The unending diatribe of look at what's been done in the past as some justification for todays actions are nothing but smoke and attempt to introduce some guilt trip which too many have bought in to.

It's almost a template, in your case.

One thread introduced get your rebuttal based on the last century. Let that one go-except learning from it-there's enough today to address without diving into the history books...(which no one is without 'crimes' committed)

We aren't only talking about the Cold War.

The Iraq War alone was a war crime of aggression: unprovoked, pre-emptive, and illegal under international law.

So too was the now admitted CIA torture, which was okayed up to the highest levels of government...

Moreover, there is plenty of evidence that the US is TOTALLY engaging in cold war-esque actions in Syria and Libya. Syria is a classic proxy war with Iran and Russia, and we are funding the opposition...

It has never stopped!

This is what I mean, most Americans are totally asleep at the wheel when it comes to global affairs and the nature of our foreign policy.

One should seek the truth, and then one faces two choices: Either call out our government for basically acting in a neo-imperial manner, or stop lying and claiming one supports democracy, human rights, and equality abroad.

A LOT of people need to stop the charade and simply admit that they believe in America winning no matter what and remaining in control, and that they support the government using any means necessary. That is the reality of our policy.

a reply to: haman10

homosexuality ? is that all you've got ? US was not a heaven for homos if i remember right . are you forgetting your own history ? what did you guys do to your gay community till 70s or so ? there is no death penalty for those people , they either undergo a sex-change operation , or are given to a psychologist for eval. i don't support this myself TBH . here is a question : why incarceration rate in US is higher than most of the world and is higher than Iran by several folds ? rigged elections ? lol . yeah cause elections in US is completely fair . thats why only 50% of the people go and vote , whereas dum dum Iranians who cannot chnage anything regarding their fate by elections , turnout about 80% . they're indeed dumb people .

You are obviously very confused... because not once did i mention Iran to you...

next...

originally posted by: ThePlusQ

"We also shot down your air liners . oh wait ! we toppled your governments . wait again ! we bombed you . we violated your territorial integrity . Wait wait wait !"



If that so then it doesnt give Iran the right to participate in the mass killing of the Syrian people just because they have a differnent reglion, doesnt give iran the right to control Lebanon and weaken its goverment systamatically while pumping the hezbolla militia with money and weapons, doest give Iran the right to hold the decsion of peace and war in its hand and deciding the fate of a whole nation (Lebanon) against israel. The list continues down to Bahrain, Yemen, etc.

It's about time the western and eastern public know the real intentions of Iran.

Hm, you do realize that the West and its allies are participating in the mass killing of the Syrians right? We are funding and arming the opposition...

Most Westerners don't know this but a year or so ago the deaths were actually almost equal between opposition and the regime, meaning that both sides are killing lots of people....

Also, Syria is Iran's backyard. They know that this is a proxy war and that regimes are falling in a domino fashion. They know that they are next in the crosshairs. The enemy is at the gates for them.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Amazing. Libya and Egypt-both times- were instigated by Britain. The U.S. has been secondary players in that end of the ME.

As far as arming goes, I agree. That's an Obama issue and not germane to the thread.

Again, the cold war, by definition, is U.S. vs The Soviet Union. That era and those paradigms are ancient history, as well as the crimes committed in that context, by both sides and all players,including Latin America, by the way.

Still misdirecting off of the thread topic, though, I see.

a reply to: AllSourceIntel

Perhaps primarily. I have seen pictures of USCG units actively in use in the Med. and elsewhere in direct supporting roles.

I'm not privy to the specifics of those roles or their ROE.

a reply to: nwtrucker
Those other areas is the support I mentioned. I should have been more specific, sorry. They did the same as they would here, provide maritime security so the Navy could focus more on the wars, especially maritime interdiction operations (MIO). This PDF explains their operations pretty well.

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: ThePlusQ

"We also shot down your air liners . oh wait ! we toppled your governments . wait again ! we bombed you . we violated your territorial integrity . Wait wait wait !"



If that so then it doesnt give Iran the right to participate in the mass killing of the Syrian people just because they have a differnent reglion, doesnt give iran the right to control Lebanon and weaken its goverment systamatically while pumping the hezbolla militia with money and weapons, doest give Iran the right to hold the decsion of peace and war in its hand and deciding the fate of a whole nation (Lebanon) against israel. The list continues down to Bahrain, Yemen, etc.

It's about time the western and eastern public know the real intentions of Iran.

Hm, you do realize that the West and its allies are participating in the mass killing of the Syrians right? We are funding and arming the opposition...

Most Westerners don't know this but a year or so ago the deaths were actually almost equal between opposition and the regime, meaning that both sides are killing lots of people....

Also, Syria is Iran's backyard. They know that this is a proxy war and that regimes are falling in a domino fashion. They know that they are next in the crosshairs. The enemy is at the gates for them.

Thanks for the insight, let me add that I already know that the west is involved in Syria. I was responding to Haman's claim that Iran is all peaceful and she is not reaponsible for the death of a single soul in the Middle East.

Regarding your insight about Iran defending its backyard as an excuse to go on and ethnicly cleanse the Syrian people. Maybe if we were talking about Iraq then your claim might stand ground, but Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Bahrain, even Egpyt? These nations are all considered as Iran's backyard? They want to convert the whole area to the shia relegion but sure they won't declare it openly. Besides, in my humble opinion I think that the domino effect will not reach or affect Iran since they long ago purged the people that might instigate a reshuffle in the rule.

a reply to: mysterioustranger

Fair enough. A good assessment from what I can see.

There is, however, nothing in the definition that even implies a communication factor or the lack thereof. The Persians are masters, by DNA, in intrigue and slight of hand. The Korean's less so.

Having read the responses, I'd modify my position to say that if N.K. had the financial means and proximity to a strategic site similar to Iran and the Strait they too would make use of it.

I deliberately positioned Iran with N.K. to stress my points regarding these ship seizures, I highly suspect the real reason being precedence in exercising control in those straits.

There are some similarities between the two. N.K. says they'd defeat the U.S. in a nuclear exchange. Iran builds a dummy U.S. aircraft carrier to practice taking one on..... Both insane. Methinks. The difference lies in the magnitude, not the mechanism of that insanity.

originally posted by: nwtrucker

There are some similarities between the two. N.K. says they'd defeat the U.S. in a nuclear exchange. Iran builds a dummy U.S. aircraft carrier to practice taking one on..... Both insane. Methinks. The difference lies in the magnitude, not the mechanism of that insanity.

Difference is:
One is a threat of aggression.
One is practicing for defense.

Or is Iran not allowed to defend itself if attacked? And if the US attacks its main tool will be carriers.

Stupid waste I agree practicing on a dummy. But meh Irans money to waste.

originally posted by: ThePlusQ

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: ThePlusQ

"We also shot down your air liners . oh wait ! we toppled your governments . wait again ! we bombed you . we violated your territorial integrity . Wait wait wait !"



If that so then it doesnt give Iran the right to participate in the mass killing of the Syrian people just because they have a differnent reglion, doesnt give iran the right to control Lebanon and weaken its goverment systamatically while pumping the hezbolla militia with money and weapons, doest give Iran the right to hold the decsion of peace and war in its hand and deciding the fate of a whole nation (Lebanon) against israel. The list continues down to Bahrain, Yemen, etc.

It's about time the western and eastern public know the real intentions of Iran.

Hm, you do realize that the West and its allies are participating in the mass killing of the Syrians right? We are funding and arming the opposition...

Most Westerners don't know this but a year or so ago the deaths were actually almost equal between opposition and the regime, meaning that both sides are killing lots of people....

Also, Syria is Iran's backyard. They know that this is a proxy war and that regimes are falling in a domino fashion. They know that they are next in the crosshairs. The enemy is at the gates for them.

Thanks for the insight, let me add that I already know that the west is involved in Syria. I was responding to Haman's claim that Iran is all peaceful and she is not reaponsible for the death of a single soul in the Middle East.

Regarding your insight about Iran defending its backyard as an excuse to go on and ethnicly cleanse the Syrian people. Maybe if we were talking about Iraq then your claim might stand ground, but Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Bahrain, even Egpyt? These nations are all considered as Iran's backyard? They want to convert the whole area to the shia relegion but sure they won't declare it openly. Besides, in my humble opinion I think that the domino effect will not reach or affect Iran since they long ago purged the people that might instigate a reshuffle in the rule.

I didn't say that Iran necessarily has a right to interfere. However, they aren't "ethnically cleansing" Syrians, they are buffering the regime against a western-funded rebellion..

And do you know who has a far lesser right to be interfering and "ethnically cleansing Syrians?" The West!

Third, the US and West are without a shadow of a doubt trying to change the order of the ME to assure geo-political control AND diminish the power of any opponents such as Russia and their proxies (Syria, Iran, etc). Hence Iran DOES have real reason to be concerned.

Fourth, the US already factually overthrew the Iranian government in the 50's via the CIA. Who are you to say that they don't believe they are under legitimate threat? And with all of the propaganda recently, and sanctions, they are under threat.

no

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Amazing. Libya and Egypt-both times- were instigated by Britain. The U.S. has been secondary players in that end of the ME.

As far as arming goes, I agree. That's an Obama issue and not germane to the thread.

Again, the cold war, by definition, is U.S. vs The Soviet Union. That era and those paradigms are ancient history, as well as the crimes committed in that context, by both sides and all players,including Latin America, by the way.

Still misdirecting off of the thread topic, though, I see.

The US has led by far the proxy war in Syria. Not Britain. And yes, I have studied both the Libyan and Syrian situations in depth.

So now because Obama is executing these moves then according to you, " It is an Obama issues and the US stopped all of that during the cold war. The US is no longer engaging in aggressive foreign policy." Amazing....

I said cold war-esque because the ACTIONS are very similar. Covert ops, regime change, arming and funding "freedom fighters," etc.

Again, you failed to respond to the continuing war mongering of BOTH Bush and Obama AFTER the millennium and cold war. You also failed to respond to my point about CIA-admitted torture. Please be intellectually honest here. The US has been the most aggressive nation and continues to be since WWII. Only the USSR came close and it is gone now.

It has done FAR more ill to other countries that Iran or NK. The US has better human rights internally obviously, but has done great evil for empire abroad.

Hence, I am still correct. You guys are being hypocrites when it comes to Iran.

a reply to: nwtrucker

Yeah...I agree with what you said here....I see on the outside...outwardly to the rest of the world...Iran kinda cooperates with talks and possible sanctions or talks of them...pretending to play nice. I think they have to...for now.

But, I still don't trust them. And N.K? Forget it...they are the absolute definition of "rogue"...stomping like a wild elephant killing their own and charging over everything without warning, regards to their own, without prompting, need or necessity. And damn to what the rest of the world thinks or expects of them.

Iran's ok for now...shaking hands, smiling, playing the part...but they are no 1st string player with the rest of us...and they know it.

N.K? We oughta go 1st and make a parking lot...but clear out the innocents 1st if we could.

Before that rogue elephant stomps them into powder....

Thanks

originally posted by: mysterioustranger
a reply to: nwtrucker

Yeah...I agree with what you said here....I see on the outside...outwardly to the rest of the world...Iran kinda cooperates with talks and possible sanctions or talks of them...pretending to play nice. I think they have to...for now.

But, I still don't trust them. And N.K? Forget it...they are the absolute definition of "rogue"...stomping like a wild elephant killing their own and charging over everything without warning, regards to their own, without prompting, need or necessity. And damn to what the rest of the world thinks or expects of them.

Iran's ok for now...shaking hands, smiling, playing the part...but they are no 1st string player with the rest of us...and they know it.

N.K? We oughta go 1st and make a parking lot...but clear out the innocents 1st if we could.

Before that rogue elephant stomps them into powder....

Thanks

Why don't you "trust them?"

That is exactly how the media and our leaders have characterized them.