Has iran surpassed North Korea as 'the' rogue nation'?

a reply to: ladyinwaiting

Oh I'd agree with your point on the life-style differences between the two countries. The similarities I was addressing lies in the international arena.

I suppose N.K. would take a far more active role if they had a similar position as Iran has with the straights and exported groups such as Hama and Hezbollah. (not to mention the finances as well.)

a reply to: Sublimecraft

I can see how that incident could be traumatic!

Still, I suspect there is far more to that story than you've mentioned.

Something triggered that response from the USCG....

Still, I appreciate your answer re the shot across the bow.

Now...what about the legal aspect, I mentioned and addressing the issue in the home nation that these ships are flagged?

Lacking any information in that arena, I would hold the acts as, at the least, arbitrary and unilateral, and even to the level of piracy. ( Personally, I care not one whit whether that piracy has been rubber-stamped as 'legal' due to Maritime law or not, be it based on precedent or whatever.)

Seizing assets perturbs people off, increases the stress internationally and worsen Iran's position in that arena.

Despite the numerous posts to the contrary, I find this an inescapable fact.

I thought Iran was always in the axis of evil and on the list of countries to be slapped down by the mighty USA I'm sure the populace will welcome American troops with flowers just like in Iraq. I had to look back at the thread to see any links you might have provided to support your arguments. There were none

originally posted by: nwtrucker
There has been an almost complete consensus that N.K. leadership was the worst on the planet. Unbelievably repressive to it's people, constant sword rattling with the south and the U.S.. Then there's counterfeit money, signs of drug running and smuggling.

Having said that, any overt actions have been directed to their cousins to the south. No real overt moves against anyone else that I'm aware of.

However, with the recent actions of Iran using their navy to pirate ships from international waters and retaining their crews under the guise of debts owed by the ship lines, Iran seems to have moved into the same level as N.K. and perhaps has surpassed them.

When these recent acts by Iran are added on top of their Hamas and Hezbollah activities throughout the ME, can Iran now be considered the top of the 'out of their minds' leadership on the planet?

Their actions become even more of a head-scratcher when there's ongoing nuclear negotiations with the U.S. and the coalition.

In my view, it's as outright crazy as anything by the North Koreans.

All it does for me is harden my stance against any slack given Iran in those negotiations and probably increases the resolve of the international community to also harden it's stance as well.

As Iran appears to be following the rhetoric and path taken by N.K. in it's initial nuclear development, it looks like the same level of rationality is being used....none.

Thoughts?

Time for a mirror, sorry. "For every finger pointing there are four pointing back."

And when the US invaded Iraq based on lies and killed over 100,000 civilians? How do people like you never rank the US up there then with these "rogue" nations?

The hypocrisy is astounding.

a reply to: combatmaster

human shields

Ah yes the human shield myth this is what Israel cries when they murder innocent civilians. What about Israel who also uses human shields? By your logic this makes the IDF terrorist do you not agree?

death penalty for the 'crime' of homosexuality

Actually they were executed for raping a 13 year old boy.

rigged 'elections'

No nation has rigged elections more than America. We are given a choice between two parties both of whom are bought and paid for by the same people. Just look at Bernie Sanders who had to switch from a Independent to Democrat because he knew as a Independent he would stand no chance at winning the Presidency.

originally posted by: intrptr

Has iran surpassed North Korea as 'the' rogue nation'?

What a nonsensical question.

Half of the Korean Peninsula is under occupation by the US military.

What is rogue if not invading and conquering another country for no reason?

All this propaganda presents is who heads the US Next Up list.

Yup, people like the OP buy it hook line and sinker.

The op is a perfect example of EXACTLY the type of "manufactured consent" that the US media machine seeks to create.

hope.journ.wwu.edu...

originally posted by: haman10
a reply to: nwtrucker

Mate , i really appreciate the time you spent on posting such a long article (if you will) on how iran is a rogue state like north korea .

the reason for that : 1- piracy 2- supporting hamas and hezbollah .

first of all , even if Iran was being a pirate , we for sure were not a rogue state , cause you're supporting Anti- Iranian terrorist group named MKO and you're not rouge (according to yourself) . your allies in the region support al-qaeda and ISIS and they are still not rouge .

in the first naval incidence , with the help of my dear friend sublimecraft , we showed you the amount of propaganda haters are throwing at Iran .

on the second incidence , about the singaporian vessel - which has nothing to do with you BTW- , as i have new info on the subject , i'll make a new thread about it and show you how uninformed you're .

or you want to be deliberately .

==========

Secondly , on the issue of hamas and hezbollah , you HAVE to understand that muslim countries (actually most of the UN including the members of NAM ) don't categorize them as terrorist organizations .

so you're argument worth zilch , period .

Exactly, all Iran really has done in 20 years is "support terrorists," i.e. allied militants. So all kinds of Americans and Westerners claim this makes them evil.

However, the US and Britain have been supporting civil wars, militants, and "freedom fighters" all over the world for 60 years...

So how does this make us NOT rogue but Iran rogue?

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Thanks for the link. Ever see "Metropolis" or "Brazil"? Good ones about cogs in the machine.

Yup, people like the OP buy it hook line and sinker.

Also reflects on the bully atmosphere developing here nowadays. From police brutality to Media entertainment and video games we seem to develop the same attitude as the average school yard bully. After pounding on a hapless victim they say,

"He was asking for it".

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: Sublimecraft

I can see how that incident could be traumatic!

Still, I suspect there is far more to that story than you've mentioned.

Something triggered that response from the USCG....

That is not necessarily the case given the time frame, 2002, that he mentioned. I was not exaggerating by any means when I said we would use any excuse we could find to board a vessel. As far as Sublime is concerned, his vessel could have been owned by a company, or person of interest a decade or more before he even worked on it, and before it was operated by a legitimate operation, and could be 100% legitimate at that time to the knowledge of the U.S., but if at any time in past it wasn't, we would say it is possible that could presently be the case and board. If UBL's second cousin, twice removed, had a cousin, who knew a guy that knew who lived in the same building of a person of interest, we would board. My point, there doesn't have to be more to the story or anything that actually triggered Sublime's incident. Pure and simple, we were paranoid and boarded anything and everything that has ever been associated with illegitimate activity despite known present legitimacy.

Now...what about the legal aspect, I mentioned and addressing the issue in the home nation that these ships are flagged?

Lacking any information in that arena, I would hold the acts as, at the least, arbitrary and unilateral, and even to the level of piracy. ( Personally, I care not one whit whether that piracy has been rubber-stamped as 'legal' due to Maritime law or not, be it based on precedent or whatever.)

Seizing assets perturbs people off, increases the stress internationally and worsen Iran's position in that arena.

You are welcome to your opinion and I think it is clear none of us are going to persuade you to change that, and yes, the way Iran has conducted themselves in these situations is frowned upon, does not boost their image, or make them better liked; but understand no one did anything because they could not.

Understand the crew was not held hostage, the vessel was. Understand if the company wanted that crew off the vessel and home, they would be. If the company asked Iran to let the crew go while the ship was detained, Iran would have let them go. The company, not Iran, left the crew on that vessel, likely to await the vessel's release so it could be piloted and well, crewed. I'm sure if it looked like court would drag on, or that they were going to refuse to pay up, they would have gotten the crew off, but they knew they owed money, they knew they were going to be ordered to pay up, and they knew once they did the vessel would be released and need its crew, so the crew stayed. The crew was not held hostage.

double post

a reply to: MALBOSIA

Here in Canada it is illegal to publicly voice support for group that our conservative regime classifies as a "Terrorist organization." Basically here in Canada it is illegal to argue a "Jewish Holocaust" it is illegal to voice support for Israel's enemies and it might soon be illegal to refuse to do business with Israel. If Israel and the classification of her enemies are so just, then how come they need such draconian laws to get people to support them and their views?

Nobody cares if you support Israel or not. But supporting a politically retarded group like Hamas (that are good for one thing - digging tunnels), who's spokesperson can hardly utter a word of English, or supporting their backers, the current regime in Iran that on average, executes citizens at a rate of two a day for “crimes” that include homosexuality, apostasy and the vague offense of being an “enemy of God” (you said Draconian laws? this is worse) will get you nowhere.

The fact that so many have sunk to the shameless level of needing to debate the definition of "terrorist" in order to further prolong the argument of hate towards a group, or worse... the entire western world's culture(?) is what stops any possible solution from occurring.

If one thinks Canada has draconian laws, one if free to leave Canada.... you see the paradox? Sounds to me like you're unhappy where you are... unhappy where others are! Doesnt leave much room to enjoy life! Maybe a shift of perspective is needed in this case!


a reply to: buster2010

No nation has rigged elections more than America.

Nobody is forcing you to stay. Either change the status-quo or leave, either way stop b*tching about it.

originally posted by: combatmaster
a reply to: MALBOSIA

Here in Canada it is illegal to publicly voice support for group that our conservative regime classifies as a "Terrorist organization." Basically here in Canada it is illegal to argue a "Jewish Holocaust" it is illegal to voice support for Israel's enemies and it might soon be illegal to refuse to do business with Israel. If Israel and the classification of her enemies are so just, then how come they need such draconian laws to get people to support them and their views?

Nobody cares if you support Israel or not. But supporting a politically retarded group like Hamas (that are good for one thing - digging tunnels), who's spokesperson can hardly utter a word of English, or supporting their backers, the current regime in Iran that on average, executes citizens at a rate of two a day for “crimes” that include homosexuality, apostasy and the vague offense of being an “enemy of God” (you said Draconian laws? this is worse) will get you nowhere.

The fact that so many have sunk to the shameless level of needing to debate the definition of "terrorist" in order to further prolong the argument of hate towards a group, or worse... the entire western world's culture(?) is what stops any possible solution from occurring.

If one thinks Canada has draconian laws, one if free to leave Canada.... you see the paradox? Sounds to me like you're unhappy where you are... unhappy where others are! Doesnt leave much room to enjoy life! Maybe a shift of perspective is needed in this case!


a reply to: buster2010

No nation has rigged elections more than America.

Nobody is forcing you to stay. Either change the status-quo or leave, either way stop b*tching about it.

This is a logical fallacy, especially in ostensible democracies. It is the duty of a citizen in a democracy to question the government, hold them accountable, and criticize when necessary.

Also, as I said in another post, who are any of you to talk about terrorists or aggression when the West also perpetrates all manners of war crimes and supports t̶e̶r̶r̶o̶r̶i̶s̶t̶s̶ "freedom fighters."

The reason people like me are bothered by posts like yours or the op as it seems almost unbelievable how many Westerners completely ignore the crimes of the West, while pointing to often lesser level (quantitatively not qualitatively) crimes by other nations and groups. It's madness unless one is simply totally uneducated on global history.

a reply to: woodwardjnr

I hold links, in general, in low esteem.

The thread is my opinion. Links tend to be harvested based on the loyalties/bias of the poster. I am no exception to that tendency.

One has kept up with the issue or one has not and isn't interested in the subject.

Then there's the issue of the Links themselves. Many, especially as subjective as ME issues are as biased as any poster. Toss in the tendency for posters to assume they are immutable 'facts' and I tend to avoid them unless specific in nature in a rebut.

(But that's just me...)

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

This is a logical fallacy, especially in ostensible democracies. It is the duty of a citizen in a democracy to question the government, hold them accountable, and criticize when necessary.

You said it!!!! dont tell me, tell buster That explains why there are pretty much no democracies in the ME. Yet u have canadian and us citizens thinking they live in a draconian society. lol

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: woodwardjnr

I hold links, in general, in low esteem.

The thread is my opinion. Links tend to be harvested based on the loyalties/bias of the poster. I am no exception

right we are then, just your opinion based on what? Unbiased links and time on the ground in Iran?.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

I agree with you on the duty to question the gov't completely and believe all should do the same.

Where you and I part ways is your assumption that we are ignorant regarding global history. There are no shortage of threads and posters...hint, hint. that point out the 'crimes of the west'. My thread was pointing out the idiocy of Iran in this action and it's similarity to N.K. international actions.

My thread. My point of view.

You call us ignorant, I call your view completely one-sided and could go one for tomes the down-sides that would have occurred without U.S. presence, internationally.

You sit on your high horse and pontificate about high moral standards and reside in a region that is replete with gov't oppression, insurgencies, cartels and the destruction of infrastructures.

I'd like to see you just once, opine on those points. Hell, start a forum on Latin America.

Frankly, it sound like you were educated in Havana or Moscow and have returned home an enlightened socialist. If that's the case, good luck with that one.

originally posted by: combatmaster
a reply to: MALBOSIA

Here in Canada it is illegal to publicly voice support for group that our conservative regime classifies as a "Terrorist organization." Basically here in Canada it is illegal to argue a "Jewish Holocaust" it is illegal to voice support for Israel's enemies and it might soon be illegal to refuse to do business with Israel. If Israel and the classification of her enemies are so just, then how come they need such draconian laws to get people to support them and their views?

Nobody cares if you support Israel or not. But supporting a politically retarded group like Hamas (that are good for one thing - digging tunnels), who's spokesperson can hardly utter a word of English, or supporting their backers, the current regime in Iran that on average, executes citizens at a rate of two a day for “crimes” that include homosexuality, apostasy and the vague offense of being an “enemy of God” (you said Draconian laws? this is worse) will get you nowhere.

The fact that so many have sunk to the shameless level of needing to debate the definition of "terrorist" in order to further prolong the argument of hate towards a group, or worse... the entire western world's culture(?) is what stops any possible solution from occurring.

If one thinks Canada has draconian laws, one if free to leave Canada.... you see the paradox? Sounds to me like you're unhappy where you are... unhappy where others are! Doesnt leave much room to enjoy life! Maybe a shift of perspective is needed in this case!


a reply to: buster2010

No nation has rigged elections more than America.

Nobody is forcing you to stay. Either change the status-quo or leave, either way stop b*tching about it.

I wont be going anywhere. The wannabe neocons that are attemting to hijack the Canadian way of life and replace it with a fear based and controlled society will be the ones leaving. Harper cannot even debate on the CBC this election because it is public so he can't have anyone paid off to help sensor how stupid and draconian Harper really is. He will only be appearing on a short list of privately owned media.

Nice try at getting me to feel alienated, you must think this is my first rodeo eh?

I LOVE the Candian way of life and that is why I appose the draconian laws that seek to change my Canada.

And yes the current regime dictating to Canadians right now does care about my support for Israel since their bill would make boycotting Israel a hate crime. So you saying "nobody cares if I support Israel" was sort of a dumb thing to say.

a reply to: woodwardjnr

Probably similar to yours. Trying to cull the wheat from the chaff amongst the PR machines of both sides. Traditional media, internet sites, so on. All based on personal life experiences and attempt to make sense of it all...well, a little bit of sense of it.

As a basic tenet, I operate on the basis that the premise must match or at least resonate with my life experiences. If they do not, then they are relegated to the theoretical bin.

I'm old enough to treat pretty much of all the trusted sources and pontificators as generators of smoke and misdirection. I also know I'm nowhere near as smart as I think I am. I do learn from some links and a number of posters.

This thread, for example, has shown me where many of the posters operate. Some point out the same or worse flaws of others. Some marginalize or minimize, others use legal arguments.

Almost no one has touched on the incredible strategic importance of the Strait or Iran's inclination to use it as a leverage to achieve their goals.

There is a strong Chinese connection between Iran and N.K. as well. In Iran's case it is a huge oil deal between the two. Iran get some circumvention around the embargos and China gets cheaper oil paid in their near worthless Yuan.

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

I agree with you on the duty to question the gov't completely and believe all should do the same.

Where you and I part ways is your assumption that we are ignorant regarding global history. There are no shortage of threads and posters...hint, hint. that point out the 'crimes of the west'. My thread was pointing out the idiocy of Iran in this action and it's similarity to N.K. international actions.

My thread. My point of view.

You call us ignorant, I call your view completely one-sided and could go one for tomes the down-sides that would have occurred without U.S. presence, internationally.

You sit on your high horse and pontificate about high moral standards and reside in a region that is replete with gov't oppression, insurgencies, cartels and the destruction of infrastructures.

I'd like to see you just once, opine on those points. Hell, start a forum on Latin America.

Frankly, it sound like you were educated in Havana or Moscow and have returned home an enlightened socialist. If that's the case, good luck with that one.

Actually it is the complete opposite.

I am well versed and known for calling out atrocities on all sides, across history. I don't excuse anybody violating human rights, nor war mongers, neo-colonialists, etc. You see, that is not one-sided, it is called being objective and not selectively applying justice.

The people whom are one-sided are those who ignore the crimes of their own country, while trying to paint other countries as evil often for doing less (quantitatively) than said countries.

It isn't one-sided by any means to call out all violations of human rights and ethics on the international stage, whether that be by China or by the US. That is the very definition of the full application of international law and justice. It is the opposite of being "one-sided." You can't possibly be arguing here that only developing countries must follow international law and ethics but not the West?

What is one-sided is people selectively calling out tin pot dictators and banana republics for various violations, and often using these as excuses to execute our desired geo-political aims through methods ranging from wars to arming rebels to coups to assassinations. One-sided and either ignorant or simply insincere is when Americans talk about undemocratic, aggressive, or oppressive tactics by other countries and how now the US has the right to bomb, invade, regime change, occupy country Y because of these actions.

Then they turn around and claim the US can do anything it wants, cannot be held accountable under international law, and that all of these "arrogant moral claims" don't hold water, and that ethics are relative and don't hold outside of the US borders.

It's hypocrisy at its best, and of the highest order. Just think about it...

I challenge Americans to wake up out of this collective state of irresponsibility and actually fulfill the promise of the Founding Fathers, of citizens and country supporting UNIVERSAL (including outside of the US) human rights that no government can transgress (including the US transgressing the rights of non-Americans).

Iran is not on par with N.K, in fact Iran is more evil than N.K and has more sinister intentions if you just take a quick look at the mayham happening in the Middle East especially in the past decade from Iraq to Lebanon to Syria to the failed attempts in Saudi & Bahrain to Yemen, you will notice that Iran's militias which hold different names are in the center of the action.

N.K is not funding thugs in neighboring countries to wreck havoc and forcefully convert the residents to the shia relegion.
An un-nuclear Iran is a menace to the Middle East, a nuclear Iran will be a global menace.