Kentucky ‘free range’ family loses custody of 10 kids over apparent ‘unschooling’

again, for the thousandth time on ATS, conclusions are jumped to, and commented on, WITHOUT KNOWING THE DETAILS!!!....if CPS is involved, it's immediately deemed..."against the family".....unleash the outrage!...(rolls eyes)

a reply to: Annee

Okay, then we can talk about the Romanian orphans instead that so many Americans adopted a couple of decades ago. The children were like "zombies" in terms of socializing. The most loving families could not understand why, when they were being great parents.
Point being, once that damage is done, there's no turning back.

None of that has anything to do with the Nauglers, of course. It was a case-in-point of how pre-memory events can and DO INFLUENCE children's development.
LadyGreenEyes was implying that the oldest boy 'can't remember because he was too young.' And that's my point - whether or not he consciously "recalls" it, it would have had an effect on him.

a reply to: jimmyx

Your point is well-taken. I don't know how much of the thread you've read, but we've established that premise that jumping to conclusions is a mistake.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Some very close friends of ours adopted a child from Russia whose alcoholic mother locked him in a closet for hours at a time while she was out drinking. The state took him away from her when she came home and passed [out] and a neighbor heard him crying in the closet all night.

He could have not found a more loving, supportive family in his adopted family, with a rich network of close friends and lots of extend family, etc.

10 years on, and the boy is a real monster. He is going to be a significant problem for the rest of his life.


Your point is valid. Committed mothers and fathers are essential in the lives of children.

a reply to: Seamrog

The state took him away from her when she came home and passed and a neighbor heard him crying in the closet all night.

Thanks for sharing that.

One question: when you say "passed" do you mean she died? Or she passed out? EDIT: I see you meant passed out.....

I have a nephew-in-law who was removed from my brother-in-law and his wife due to severe neglect and so on....my parents-in-law adopted him as their own. His father is a revolving-door prisoner (now incarcerated AGAIN - after early release he was arrested by the Federal Marshalls and sent back for money laundering!), and his mother died of drug abuse when the kid was about 5.

Hey! I always say RESPONSIBLE parents are the key to every successful child.

Responsible and Loving not the same thing.

a reply to: Annee

Responsible and Loving not the same thing.

Not sure who you're directing this toward, but....

you are right, they aren't the same thing. It requires BOTH to raise a healthy child.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Annee

Responsible and Loving not the same thing.

Not sure who you're directing this toward, but....

you are right, they aren't the same thing. It requires BOTH to raise a healthy child.

Just in general to the conversation.

My point -- loving a child is not enough without being responsible in recognizing THEIR needs.

There are parents who "love too much".

I'm pretty sure you know what I mean. The child is not therefor an emotionally needy parent.

originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Egads.

People with this mindset, in my opinion are mentally-ill.

I don't have anyone else's kids that 'belong' to me - my children belong to me, our family.

My kids don't 'belong' to anyone else, nor the Gov't.

Gov't can't even take responsibility for itself, why does it think it has the right to people's children?

Whomever that quote originated from (the specific person who said it, not posted it) - needs a reality check. I guess her SO and her cars and things belong to the community too eh? I call fridays.

a reply to: Annee

My point -- loving a child is not enough without being responsible in recognizing THEIR needs.

THIS
exactly. One needs to know what they're doing.

This is one of the problems with Foster Parents. They are REQUIRED to go through a battery of tests and inspections (much like a couple who wants to adopt).....and they are supervised for the duration (supposedly). But when one foster home gets lower on the radar, after years of being "trusted", it can be a disaster.

And that's one of the problems with the system. Kids DO DIE in the care of adults.
CPS across the country are understaffed and underfunded, the workers are underpaid and overloaded with cases. And in some states it's even worse than others.

Something has to give. Social services are on the chopping block, prompted by the GOP.....just like Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid, physical infrastructure, public education....... It makes me shudder.

sigh



When I was working as a parent educator 10 years ago, we had an awesome curriculum. ALL of our clients were VOLUNTARY and the service was FREE - they wanted help. We used the Birth-to-Three/Healthy Families model. We (as workers) had a library of handout tools, and tailored our visits to the particular family - geared from where THEY were.

I worked with probably 3 dozen or so different families.
Now, the GOP is trying to annihilate EVERYTHING that I stand for.


And furthermore (being in the mood to disclose), I went to MANY seminars as continuing ed (inservice hours), and I attended more than one "Train the Trainer" seminar, where I was certified to teach other home visitors - in Brain Training, and also in Parenting.

In 2006 I presented at the PCAA (Prevention of Child Abuse America) national conference...my topic was on how to nurture our kids. My proposal (conferences put out RFPs - requests for proposals - all submitted anonymously, and then are jury-reviewed) was accepted. After selection, applicants are notified whether or not they are invited/accepted. My presentation was so populated it became "standing room only."

I'm sorry if I sound like I'm "bragging". I know many conservatives will say that I was a sucker to the liberal nanny-state system. But I GENUINELY STUDIED and learned about early childhood development, brain development (including fetal), nature vs nurture, from the learning styles of babies through the phase of adolescence.

At this point, today - I don't care what people think. I know what I know. I can't "unknow" it. And I care VERY MUCH about the kids.
Everywhere. Some baby in China was buried in a box in an unmarked grave because it had a cleft palate....some gatherers heard it crying, and dug it up - more than a week after it was abandoned there by the hired 'disposal' guy. ALL of the adults have been arrested. And this was on CNN this morning.

a reply to: BlackboxInquiry

My kids don't 'belong' to anyone else, nor the Gov't.

They don't 'belong' to YOU, either. They are sovereign individuals. YOU are responsible for their survival, education, and well-being. Children aren't "pets". They are PEOPLE. They were born into your care - so, do them right.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: BlackboxInquiry

My kids don't 'belong' to anyone else, nor the Gov't.

They don't 'belong' to YOU, either. They are sovereign individuals. YOU are responsible for their survival, education, and well-being. Children aren't "pets". They are PEOPLE. They were born into your care - so, do them right.

Until they are 18, they are still my wards. As time goes on, they are taught to be individuals, without regards to political correctness, only to show care in all they do.

Once they are 18, they are encouraged to attend college. One in college, one enrolling next year and the younger ones aren't to that point - but being taught the same way.

Each ARE individuals, and are vastly different from one another, though sharing some similarities in certain areas.

Obviously, they aren't pets, I never claimed that, but 'example' on your behalf did get a giggle from me.

I do right by them, I want them to be better off in every way than myself, their mother and many others.

I can only guide and advise as they get older, but so far, each has gotten it and is doing well for their development stage.

*pets* - I seriously laughed my !@#! @$$ off at that comment. Context, it's all about context. Also there was 'belong' in quotations - makes this even more funny to me.

What do they say about China?

They have the happiest children and the highest rate of teen suicide.

What gives?

Do they spoil their little children like "pets", then flip a switch when they're not cute and fun anymore?

a reply to: BlackboxInquiry

Until they are 18, they are still my wards. As time goes on, they are taught to be individuals, without regards to political correctness, only to show care in all they do.

Exactly. They are your 'wards' - your responsibility. But they don't BELONG to you. I have two kids in their 20s....I was responsible for their survival, their socialization, their general upbringing.
They are both fine, in their own ways. But now, being 24 and 26, they certainly do not BELONG to me. They are "mine" as in "my kids" that I gave birth to, reared and nurtured and kept alive - but they are THEIR OWN SELVES. I, at this point, do not interfere, but am available for consultation.

a reply to: BlackboxInquiry

I do right by them, I want them to be better off in every way than myself, their mother and many others.

Yep! I want that for mine, too!

I can only guide and advise as they get older, but so far, each has gotten it and is doing well for their development stage.

Excellent! Well done, you!!

*pets* - I seriously laughed my !@#! @$$ off at that comment. Context, it's all about context. Also there was 'belong' in quotations - makes this even more funny to me.

I sincerely hope we are on the same page here.

Yes, our "pets" (dogs, cats, birds, fish, whatever) "belong" to us - but, on the other hand, my veterinarian's office's files give my pets MY surname.

Anyway, I'm getting tired...thanks for your post, I hope I interpreted it correctly.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

The Nauglers follow the so-called unschooling method that allows children to learn through natural experiences – including play, household chores, travel, and personal courses of study.

A family friend said that’s the way all children learned before public schooling.

“You let your kids decide the curriculum,” said family friend Pace Ellsworth. “In unschooling, education doesn’t take a backseat. It’s listening to what they’re interested in and fascinated in.”

That was exactly the philosophy of a fancy private school in my city. They'd take kids on outings and if one picked up a leaf, they'd research photosynthesis, make art from it, etc, depending on the age and interests of the kid(s).

a reply to: lindalinda

Right! It's the Montessori method.

The Montessori Method of education, developed by Dr. Maria Montessori, is a child-centered educational approach based on scientific observations of children from birth to adulthood. Dr. Montessori’s Method has been time tested, with over 100 years of success in diverse cultures throughout the world.
It is a view of the child as one who is naturally eager for knowledge and capable of initiating learning in a supportive, thoughtfully prepared learning environment. It is an approach that values the human spirit and the development of the whole child—physical, social, emotional, cognitive.

Hallmarks of Montessori

Components necessary for a program to be considered authentically Montessori include multiage groupings that foster peer learning, uninterrupted blocks of work time, and guided choice of work activity. In addition, a full complement of specially designed Montessori learning materials are meticulously arranged and available for use in an aesthetically pleasing environment.

The teacher, child, and environment create a learning triangle. The classroom is prepared by the teacher to encourage independence, freedom within limits, and a sense of order. The child, through individual choice, makes use of what the environment offers to develop himself, interacting with the teacher when support and/or guidance is needed.

It's debatabe whether Mrs Naugler really gets the whole supervision thing, though. Her method is not objectionable, IF THE KIDS ARE DOING WELL.

Some legal info. With links for more detailed info.

In the Kentucky legal system, most cases involving child abuse are called "DNA" actions, which stands for "Dependent, Neglected or Abused." Most child abuse falls into either the "neglect" category where the parent or custodian doesn’t adequately take care of the child or "abuse" where the parent or custodian physically or emotionally injures the child or allows someone else to physically or emotionally injure the child. When an act of child abuse is reported to the Cabinet for Health and Family Services or to law enforcement, the Child Protective Services (CPS) workers from the county office will begin an investigation.

kyjustice.org...

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: BlackboxInquiry

I do right by them, I want them to be better off in every way than myself, their mother and many others.

Yep! I want that for mine, too!

I can only guide and advise as they get older, but so far, each has gotten it and is doing well for their development stage.

Excellent! Well done, you!!

*pets* - I seriously laughed my !@#! @$$ off at that comment. Context, it's all about context. Also there was 'belong' in quotations - makes this even more funny to me.

I sincerely hope we are on the same page here.

Yes, our "pets" (dogs, cats, birds, fish, whatever) "belong" to us - but, on the other hand, my veterinarian's office's files give my pets MY surname.

Anyway, I'm getting tired...thanks for your post, I hope I interpreted it correctly.

LOL - I think for the most part we are on the same page. Good reading your replies.

So, I went to school in the 50s. Raised by a working mom and gramma. I had no rules other then be in when the streetlights go on. I hated school and was bored out of my mind. It's only later in my adult life I realize what I threw away and didn't appreciate.

Raised my kids in the Dr. Spock era --- be your child's friend, let them express who they are, yada, yada. Then he acquired teen stepdaughter and discovered he was wrong. And admitted it.

Then I helped raise my now 22 year old grandson. His mom is pretty straight, he went to a private Christian school. I gotta give them credit for making the kids respect each other ---- at least prior to the teen years. We yanked him when the school sent these kids home with readable flyers on how to stop gay marriage.

For the last 7 years raising high functioning mild autistic grandson (and his now 15 year old sister -- oh the drama). The public school system has been amazing in working with him. Also providing counseling for his sister when needed.

What I have learned (besides you are NOT your child's friend) is that self esteem is the #1 most important thing for any child.

I am not a big supporter of homeschool because I know how much difficulty I had learning to work within the structure of society.

Sure there are many successful homeschooled kids, but I bet there are far more who are dysfunctional when they get out in the world.

It does amuse be the supporters of homeschool always use success stories and compare them to non-success stories of public school. There are plenty of successful public school kids.

One does not fit all of course. If I had a child, such as an effeminate boy, who was being bullied --- I would pull him out quick as a flash and homeschool him.