Lost knowledge due to religion

originally posted by: SuperFrog
Library of Alexandria had couple of documented fires, one of them being one you mentioned, but final destruction of Alexandria Library as well its smaller 'daughter' library that was not destroyed with main was by decree of Coptic Pope Theophilus in AD 391. You can read about this bit more here: en.wikipedia.org...

There is a huge difference between the Church destroying a pagan temple and the Church willingly burning a library.

But in your eyes it doesn't seem there is any...

That's called bias.

Since the Serapeum housed a part of the Great Library, some scholars believe that the remains of the Library of Alexandria were destroyed at this time. However, it is not known how many, if any, books were contained in it at the time of destruction, and contemporary scholars do not mention the library directly

I'm sorry, I don't think the US system is particularly famous for its teaching of medieval European history so its not surprising to read so many clichés and caricature on a board like here.


Real scientific stance is not to take position against religions or the Church but to remain above such consideration. Only the truth matters.

You might hate it, but the Church played a huge role in the preservation of scientific knowledge during the middle-age, and the starting of the new scientific culture with the first universities.


Basically you have no idea what you talk about and simply quote what suits your view, truly a despicable habit for a man of science like you.


There are plenty of criticism one can made about religions that you don't need to invent a history where religion was the enemy of science.


Again, don't think American Christian fundies are a good representation of what religion is in Europe. In the Catholic Church, being a priest, a scholar and a scientist is very common, and many huge scientific discoveries were made by them.


I wonder who developed the scientific method in Europe? Oh yes, a catholic monk! What a surprise...

originally posted by: Gothmog
a reply to: JUhrman
Actually , the final destruction of the Library is accredited to the Muslim invasion of Egypt in AD 642 (app) . And this does go along with the original OP on religious destruction .

Most if not all books were already lost since the first fire so this point is moot.

Actually if you knew how important old texts were for the Church fathers and those after them you would realize how silly it is to imply the Church would willingly burn down the treasures of the great library.

It never occurred to you guys why atheism is so strong and important as an opinion in the US but not in the rest of the world?

It's because it's true that in the US, Christian fundamentalism is holding scientific progress back.


But it's truly an American specialty and it would be very stupid to imagine US Christian fundamentalism is representative of religion.

It's mainly in the US you have issues with people believing the Bible is literal, the earth is 6000 years old, etc...

We don't have that here. Maybe a few % people still believe that sh*t, but certainly not more than 30% like in the US.

Honestly it's not the Church that caused this. It's American Christian Evangelical sects. Maybe you should get your facts straight...

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
Luckily for humanity, one single copy of Lucretius' De Rerum Natura survived, and the ancient forerunners of modern scientific enquiry weren't completely lost.

I wonder who found it and saved it?

A servant of the Roman Curia ! So either the OP is pulling his claims out of his ass, either it seems like the Church actually helped preserving ancient scientific knowledge.

I know the answer but it seems OP is too blinded by his anti-religious hate to see that.


Show us on the doll where the priest touched you, OP.

a reply to: JUhrman

There is a huge difference between the Church destroying a pagan temple and the Church willingly burning a library.

What would that huge difference be? Both are destroying a culture, and knowledge of that culture, because they are contrary to your beliefs.

Sure. The Catholic church has played a huge role in history overrall. But their preservation of scientific knowledge on the one hand, does not make up for their destruction of science and history on the other hand. It is you who have no idea what you talk about. You are just as biased as any of the "fundie" atheists you criticize.

originally posted by: Klassified
does not make up for their destruction of science

Like what?

originally posted by: JUhrman

originally posted by: Klassified
does not make up for their destruction of science

Like what?

Well, you can start with Galileo and Giordano Bruno. Let alone the Catholic priest, Diego De Landa, who did his utmost to wipe out the Mayan written language by destroying everything he could get his hands on.

And as for your claim the church has been so instrumental in preserving or furthering science, you might find a different perspective enlightening...
The myth of Christianity founding science and medicine

originally posted by: Klassified
Well, you can start with Galileo and Giordano Bruno.

Did they destroy any text?

Also this is a common misconception to claim the Church condemned Galileo for his discoveries.

Actually the truth is much more complex. The pope asked Galileo (his friend) for example to say his theory was only one possible theory. Galileo took offense, refused and called the pope a "moron" in his book. The pope of course condemned him.

Seriously if there was a deliberate attempt by the church to destroy science, you would find much more example of it than examples of the opposite. I never claimed there hasn't been such accidents, but basically what is claimed in the OP is untrue.

originally posted by: Klassified
nobeliefs.com...

You have something similar from a European source?

Because, again, this is simply an American atheist battling with American Christian fundies claims. Nothing in that texts disproves what I have posted.

I never claimed the Church should be thanked for modern science. Only that claiming the Church actively fought science is a misconception common in the US.




Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to claim the Church is a wonderful thing. Far from it.

I'm just trying to deny ignorance which this thread is full of.

Mans history has a component of Religion as well as innovation that is what science discovery is all about .It would be just as illogical to claim that man is responsible for destroying ancient religions .Man is a thinker and he records his thoughts and ideas and passes some of the good ones along as well as some of the bad ones .

a reply to: JUhrman
Typical. Discredit the source, rather than the material.

I also noticed you ignored Diego De Landa. You might want to read up on him. He sure helped further our understanding of the Mayans, and their scientific knowledge. It took more than 200 years to try and undo the damage caused by him, all because those Mayan's were evil heathens, and we must not let their knowledge be known to the world.

As the OP stated on page 1. The Catholic church has supported science when it behooved them in the past. In the present, they are indeed very supportive of the sciences, and have spent a lot of resources on research. For that, I commend them.

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: JUhrman
Typical. Discredit the source, rather than the material.

No, I'm saying it's irrelevant to the discussion. I never claimed the things mentioned in that text. Only that it's not true to claim that in Europe the Church tried to destroy ancient knowledge. They actually loved ancient books.

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: JUhrman
I also noticed you ignored Diego De Landa.

No I said such accident happened and unless you can find a hundred more they are not representative of the actions of the Church.

I can show you hundreds of examples of the Church or Christians who played an important role in the transmission of ancient science and knowledge.


The OP is not trying to discuss the truth.

The OP is trying to demonize the Church and religions.

This is not something I would consider "scientific".

This thread would be so much more interesting if it was called "Lost knowledge due to fundamentalism" like it happens some Muslim countries and like it's happening right now in the States.

a reply to: JUhrman

I think it would be great if you answer you own question in today's contest. At the end of Taliban rule, they destroyed some for them 'pagan sites', you remember this? Did they follow their religious instructions to destroy them? Was that something we can blame Islam for, or just group that did it in the name of Islam? Are there verses in Qur'an that prompted given destruction of human heritage?? Something similar is still happening, and please note, where religion is on power, not common law.

For rest of your post, I give you references and will accept your view if you provide your evidence and decide for dialog versus ad-hominem. Just for note, I've spent half of my life in Europe and another half in USA, so claiming this has to do with my BIAS because I am living here?! Please...

As final touch, here is debate about Catholic Church being a force of good in world, check it our... you might be surprised....



Please check results before and after debate, and provide explanation...

originally posted by: JUhrman
The OP is not trying to discuss the truth.

The OP is trying to demonize the Church and religions.

This is not something I would consider "scientific".

What is the truth? I gave 2 examples in beginning, what do you take is lie or incorrect?

As for trying to demonize the Church, nah, not something I am trying to do, but Church and other religions are doing fair jobs them self, in the past as well in current times.

I just provide evidence, people are smart enough to make their own conclusions...

originally posted by: SuperFrog
At the end of Taliban rule, they destroyed some for them 'pagan sites', you remember this?

This thread would be so much more interesting if it was called "Lost knowledge due to fundamentalism" like it happens some Muslim countries and like it's happening right now in the States.

a reply to: JUhrman

Define fundamentalism.

Was middle age church fundamentalist? Where did inquisition come from and what about crusades??

You did note correctly that today this is more evident in USA or countries where religion holds the power (mainly Islam world), but it is not, nor ever was monopolized by USA or Islam. Issue between science and religion is old one... as showed in opening post...

Great thread and debate guys

I concur that as a species we have been held back. We should be living in the Star Trek era if relgion had not held us back

a reply to: Prezbo369
Lol. Well put. Didn't have to stoop to that level of arguing

a reply to: Abednego

Sad indeed except when you realise just how greedy and power seeking Rome was and still is. Although some of my family were not Christian I was stuffed into a catholic school because it was the best education in the area. Because as a small kid I question how the hell they got all those different animals especially lions and donkeys to get on the same boat plus keep all their feed, water and clear out the stabling and the animals didn't kill each other, I got the ruler for insolence and - being 'bold' apparently thinking was prohibited even in the late 50's/early 60's. Technology has boomed since that time.

I do think though that you have to remember that the church was so tied in with government due to the cheap velvet glove approach, that much of its behaviour was condoned by the kings and emperors.

a reply to: SuperFrog

Oh Superfrog, I didn't mean that at all or to offend or nit-pic, I merely meant that the religious - with the help of their monotheistic Gods e.g. yahweh and allay etc haven't done nearly as well as the rest of the world when it comes to achievement. I have a deep loathing for the pious religiosity because I see them as frauds and mental straightjackets which they would lock us all into if they could or some think themselves vastly exclusive and superior to the rest of the world. When you examine their lives truth doesn't live up to their expectations.

a reply to: Klassified
Very well put. He is embarrassing himself with his comments. He clings on to the notion of Christianity being gatherers of knowledge thousands of years ago, ignoring the crusades and destruction caused by the church ( alot down to the monarchy in England unfortunately). Religion has been a huge catalyst for war, and in war, there is collateral damage, some in which cultures were destroyed and forgotten in history. These civilizations could/did make scientific progress. I do not feel the need to source any of my points as it is common knowledge the destruction of the church, not even mentioning the damage religious leaders in Islam have caused.

Yes the religion hasn't directly caused this....its the people who take it literally and act upon it that cause the destruction. However , without religion, these things would not have occurred, maybe in some other form, but not the way history has unfolded.

Calling people stupid and pulling facts out your ass type comments only devalues your points, especially as no one truly knows exactly what knowledge has been destroyed. When someone can tell your religious beliefs simply by the way you insult/ articulate your points then Your point has no validity