Lost knowledge due to religion

For some time I was thinking to create topic where we could review relationship between religion and science, and try to get better grasp of what might have been lost due to religion influencing our lives. But before we go into this, let's cover little story, something we have documents and know it happened.

In end times of ancient Egypt, around ~300 BC lived a mathematician, poet, and holder of many other disciplines of science that his nickname, beta, second letter of Greek alphabet points that he was good in many things, but never specialized in single one - Eratosthenes. He also was chief librarian of great Alexandria library. One day he was reading reports, sometimes those reports included some trivial stuff, while some were just records for bookkeeping and part of report made him suspicious and wonder. Report was from Syene (Aswan) and stated that on summer solstice (June 21st) sun is directly above, so even deep well would not have any shadows. On the same day, towers in Alexandria produced shadows. This made him think and realize that only reason this might be is because earth was sphere, so he hired someone to measure distance between Syene and Alexandria, then he used shadow in Alexandria to measure that Alexandria and Syene are at about 7 degree or close to 1/50 of a circle and once multiplied that with distance, he was able very accurately to measure radius and circumference of Earth. Some believe, but we don't have record that he was also able to measure distance between earth and sun.

Now, this would be knowledge we should work on, expend on it... but because it was not in 'bible' it was just lost... just imagine, if Christopher Columbus knew what was circumference of Earth, he would knew that he was not in India, but in all new continent?!

This is also good example, what happens when folklore tale books is used to answer questions it is not meant to answer, it is no scientific nor historical book, it is just another product of fiction, should be treated as that.

This dumbing for lack of better terms with religious nonsense is likely to spread if we allow it. We have historical knowledge what happens to whole group of people if they allow religion to rule over everything including education and science - Islam. In its beginning when Islam supported science and education it was center of knowledge and science, prospered and grow, but once it turned its back to science and education stagnated and today, almost 1000 years later it still did not recover. Just mind-blowing fact that today 1.3 billion people are belonging to that religion, 2 of them only won Nobel Prize for Science, while there is only about 15 million of Jews and they hold about 25% of prizes?! Just imagine what knowledge got lost?!

This is just one example how religion influenced our lives, there are many more, and what is really worrisome is that people who are trying to change science book to include religious nonsense are constantly working to influence education system. Just look at issues with schoolbooks in Texas, Wendy Wright's organization and similar science denial folks... including Ken Ham (who thankfully has not big influence, but is working on destroying knowledge replacing it with his God view...) There are records that pont that for example Church was planning to assassinate Jean-François Champollion because if he could decipher hieroglyphs as he announced, it might lead to text to disprove bible and age of earth/universe?!

This thread in my opinion can serve two purpose, collection of lost knowledge due to religion as well as trying to figure out is religion doing this on purpose (dumbing people to make them more manageable) or if there might be conspiracy going behind all of this... After all, organized religion is biggest cult that even has done some major crimes against humanity, it still exists... and in countries like USA does not pay taxes... Also one of major conclusion of this thread is to show that religion and science are not mixing well. You have to minimize religion to something as tradition to be able to fully acknowledge science and look for discoveries...

References:
Eratosthenes: en.wikipedia.org...
Narrated story about events by late Carl Sagan as part of original cosmos: youtu.be...
BBC on Rosetta Stone and Jean-François Champollion's discovery: www.youtube.com...

a reply to: SuperFrog

Good thread however you make the point that only 2% of nobel prize winners are muslim which I agree is tragic because before they went religious they were the finest mathematicians in the world and once islam got its claws into their brains - 2% only. The men they have given way to are typified by the guy I saw storming down the High Street today clearly expecting everyone else to get out of his way. He had his little mussy titfa, glasses, dyed red beard, chin stuck out in front and an arrogance only preserved for the overt religious, which his garb obviously was worn in order to tell you he was a muslim get out of the way and exactly how pious this creep thinks he is. You then give the jewish contribution to Nobels at 25%. Again, great a nation that encourages its children to learn and pass exams in order to get top jobs and protect jewish interests. Fine again, but you neglected to say what the other missing 73% were. The majority would be a large number of various religions, with a larger number of Christains, Hindi, etc etc and atheists and agnostics.

I do totally agree with you that religion has frauded people of knowledge. Apparently when the catholic church came to Britain, the people were getting an education and the church stopped this immediately because it was easier to convert ignorance than educated people via the druids and other means. It also made it easier for the church to grab land, which the druids saw as belonging to the people and proportioned out 3 lines per family. The 'people described' with their measuring sticks in the bible were most likely druidic. Traditionally we understand the emperor wanted christianity to be his velvet glove of control so everything relating to druidism was destroyed exempt excerpts from writers giving their perspective on druidic practices. Traditionally we understand they took 25 years to train, so these were very educated, experienced and able people - when you think how long it takes to train a priest it was a pretty poor replacement.

The destruction of the Serapeum and library in Alexandra was probably one of the most tragic losses for us because there was a possibility that it would have contained further information about the library contents from Lagash and other ancient citadels which give us another version of how we were created etc.

The so-called mother church which burnt people who didn't agree with her dogma should be enough to warn people just how much of a threat to knowledge the church and all the religious dodge pots are to our advancement. Normal people do have a responsibility to use their own brains especially when the church started to sell seats in heaven to fleece more money out of people. It doesn't seem to matter whether you have a hierarchy or just a lot of bearded imams the damage is always the same. Its funny how people ignore the simple fact that only reports of god and his angels exist in remove places and remote times, something that needs dwelling on in this age of empirical demands for claims made for simple items we buy each and every day. Its well time for the religious to produce some empirical evidence of their claims and to stop living off others in established religious houses, which seem to handle more money than salvation. (Off the soap box and off to vote).

S + F
I second your OP.
Most of the time so called "religious leaders" instead of teaching they indoctrinate people. And those are 2 very different things. Being the second one the most dangerous of the two.

There was a time when religion and science used to live together and life was easier. But today they no longer can be together.

a reply to: SuperFrog
Great post and debate. I've always thought that religion has inhibited human progress, both socially and scientifically. Christianity is possibly one of the worst offenders when coming to destroying knowledge and progress, just to eliminate sources that disprove the bible/ ideology. Thankfully the human race is ever becoming more secularised, a main contributer is the k ow ledge of our place in the universe. Without scientific progress and desire to leave the earth and explore I wonder if we would still be accepting outdated truths and further halt human evolution in terms of science

a reply to: SuperFrog

religions are based on unchangeable dogmas which disciples must accept to the exclusion of all knowledge adverse to their own creed. Whenever they are able, they actually destroy contrary evidence for fear of rivalry. Then they magnify their own religion to a unique position above all others. The earlier Christian saints, having determined like Paul, to know only “Jesus Christ and him crucified,” made stern efforts to obliterate from the page of history facts damaging to their case.

The disciples of the Christian faith have burnt books, blotted out passages and bowdlerised testaments which suggested the opposite of their belief. Not only that, they have demolished monuments showing crucifixions of previous atoning gods so that they are now unknown. Hence, the disbelief of Christians when other cases are mentioned. It continues in more recent times.

The Pagan Files...

This article deals mostly with Xtianity, but the behavior certainly isn't exclusive to one religion. Artifacts and knowledge have been destroyed and/or hidden by religion before and and since. If I recall correctly, there was a Chinese emperor who destroyed a lot of China's past for similar reasons. Of course, Egypt also went through a short, monotheistic phase, and returned to polytheism once that Pharaoh died.

It's also worth noting that religion is not the only one guilty of suppressing new or scientific knowledge. Governments have done as much for Millennia. Of course, government and religion were often indistinguishable in the past.

a reply to: Shiloh7
Sad to note that most of the lost knowledge was due to Christian intervention through the catholic church.

a reply to: Shiloh7

Sorry, I was not precise enough, it is not 2%, but only 2 and its not overall Nobel prize winners, but winners for science. (its 2 out of approximately 850 science Nobel prize winners, making it .0023 %) Only 2 Muslims, one of them not middle east Muslim, but Pakistani Muslim. There were few more winners, most in Peace (7) and Literature (2). Detailed list of Muslim Nobel laureates can be found here: en.wikipedia.org...

Reason I used Muslims as example is just to see danger of religious suppression on education and science. I am not trying to minimize achievements of others, but to point to difference. Muslims represent about 23% of total earth population.

I also agree, it is really sad how much of knowledge and discoveries got lost with fires of Alexandria library and how many of them had to be rediscovered later...

I tend to agree with you but it was the church that
has held us back not the religion. It is two different things.
My grief is with the church.

To be specific the Romans burned down the great Library of Alexandria.

a reply to: SuperFrog

This thread in my opinion can serve to purpose, collection of lost knowledge due to religion as well as trying to figure out is religion doing this on purpose (dumbing people to make them more manageable) or if there might be conspiracy going behind all of this... After all, organized religion is biggest cult that even has done some major crimes against humanity, it still exists... and in countries like USA does not pay taxes... Also one of major conclusion of this thread is to show that religion and science are not mixing well. You have to minimize religion to something as tradition to be able to fully acknowledge science and look for discoveries...

Here in the United states it is opposite of what you postulate. Religion is declining very rapidly and has almost disappeared from public education. We have more racial tension and disrespect for law then at any other point in the past three decades. There is less control of people here than at any time in the past 100 years and I see very little influence of religion except to the unruly.

It is not organized religions that bilk the coffers of America but is corporations and political gun runners that are responsible. It is not the religious who create the crimes but the drug infested average American along with the illegals who freely roam the streets of America. It is not religion that has destroyed America but is lack of religion that has taken this country down. America is the most drug infested, crime ridden, gun running nation on earth and has fallen to well below twentieth in education. That is not due to religion but is due to the greed and ignorance of politicians.
Science itself is not to be blamed but only the ignorant who use the word as a tool to destroy that which they hate.

Two Words
Dark Ages

The sad thing is that the answer to this broad question will never be known because it's impossible to prove the negatives about what wasn't learned or what was lost (if it's never found).

On the real, though (yes, I just said that), religion has helped move some sciences along, too. But I do agree that it has been more destructive than constructive concerning the scientific and historical arts.

a reply to: SuperFrog

It seems your sources are either biased, either you are almost a caricature of an anti religious person for posting this.

- The library of Alexandria was burned during Cesar's attack and religions had nothing to do with this.
- The transmission of ancient science to the west during the middle age was actually thanks to the copyist monks and the later rediscovery of ancient arabic scientific texts.
- Religion in Europe never really hindered science quite the contrary

Actually, without the impetus of the Church, most ancient knowledge would be lost and European universities would never see the light

European higher education took place for hundreds of years in Christian cathedral schools or monastic schools (Scholae monasticae), in which monks and nuns taught classes; evidence of these immediate forerunners of the later university at many places dates back to the 6th century AD. The earliest universities were developed under the aegis of the Latin Church by papal bull as studia generalia and perhaps from cathedral schools. It is possible, however, that the development of cathedral schools into universities was quite rare, with the University of Paris being an exception. (See Leff, Paris and Oxford Universities.) Later they were also founded by Kings (University of Naples Federico II, Charles University in Prague, Jagiellonian University in Kraków) or municipal administrations (University of Cologne, University of Erfurt). In the early medieval period, most new universities were founded from pre-existing schools, usually when these schools were deemed to have become primarily sites of higher education. Many historians state that universities and cathedral schools were a continuation of the interest in learning promoted by monasteries.

So basically I would say your OP is particularly misinformed and biased.


But it's true that in the US, Christian fundamentalism is doing much harm to science with theories like creationism. But to be fair fundamentalism is not the norm in religion, and Christian fundamentalism, an American specialty.

But it's quite a modern thing (but unfortunately a thing that makes most Americans completely ignorant of the history of religions in the rest of the world)

The sad thing is you dont want a discussion, you dont want replys, you dont want to be challenged.
Your minds are made up and set in their ways.

The truth is opposite to what you have described but it seems you are not smart enough to discover it yourselves and you are not smart enough to listen to the truth.

Why was the first printing press ever developed?

originally posted by: borntowatch
The sad thing is you dont want a discussion, you dont want replys, you dont want to be challenged.
Your minds are made up and set in their ways.

The truth is opposite to what you have described but it seems you are not smart enough to discover it yourselves and you are not smart enough to listen to the truth.

Why was the first printing press ever developed?

The most virulent American atheists are slowly but surely becoming caricatures of the religious fundies they criticize all the time.

They have no interest in the truth, they only want to see religions disappear because they hate them with a passion.

originally posted by: nfflhome
I tend to agree with you but it was the church that
has held us back not the religion. It is two different things.
My grief is with the church.

To be specific the Romans burned down the great Library of Alexandria.

Yeah in 48 BC.

But it was because of the Roman Catholic Church... I would laugh if it wasn't so pathetic


Dear lord is this the intellectual elite of this board? I hope not...

a reply to: borntowatch

The 'truth' is that you don't have a response that doesn't include you describing those that do not agree with you as not being 'smart enough' to have a belief like yours.

Why was the first printing press ever developed?

To record Chinese history....

a reply to: SuperFrog

Both are constantly being revised, so really not missing anything from either.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
The sad thing is that the answer to this broad question will never be known because it's impossible to prove the negatives about what wasn't learned or what was lost (if it's never found).

On the real, though (yes, I just said that), religion has helped move some sciences along, too. But I do agree that it has been more destructive than constructive concerning the scientific and historical arts.

Unfortunately this is true, but we still have some examples of lost knowledge, like the one I showed in opening post. Main idea is to show danger many groups that try to infiltrate current education with religious non-science, for example, intelligent design and/or creationism as equal to theory of evolution. It would be very dangerous not to seriously address those destructive agendas...


a reply to: JUhrman

Sure, I am biased toward science, humanity and progress. I hope we will outgrow need for religion and replace it with something less destructive and more progressive.

Library of Alexandria had couple of documented fires, one of them being one you mentioned, but final destruction of Alexandria Library as well its smaller 'daughter' library that was not destroyed with main was by decree of Coptic Pope Theophilus in AD 391. You can read about this bit more here: en.wikipedia.org...

Sure, there was some little progress as long as it was not opposing bible teaching during middle ages, bit as another member mentioned, there is a reason we call them 'dark ages'. But note even from your link that most of progress was not done on study of nature, but more theological studies.

Even today, how long it takes for religion (all religions and religious organization) to accept progress we made in astronomy, archeology, medicine,... Catholic church is back couple of decades accepting theory of evolution, while most of its followers are still in doubt due to teachings of (or should we call it misinformation given from) church.
Look at all evidence that point that great flood never happened, yet people insist it was real, even there was no evidence. Do you see conflict between science and religion??

originally posted by: borntowatch
The sad thing is you dont want a discussion, you dont want replys, you dont want to be challenged.
Your minds are made up and set in their ways.

The truth is opposite to what you have described but it seems you are not smart enough to discover it yourselves and you are not smart enough to listen to the truth.

Why was the first printing press ever developed?

Quite offensive and without any evidence, as always. If I did not want discussion or replies, would I even open topic?? Think about it, your reply does not make sense at all.
As I said already in this post, sure, some progress was done in religion, but just for benefit of religion, not humans. This might be of interest to you...

bactra.org...
A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom
by
ANDREW DICKSON WHITE
LL.D. (Yale), L.H.D. (Columbia), PH.DR. (Jena)
Late President and Professor of History at Cornell University

a reply to: JUhrman
Actually , the final destruction of the Library is accredited to the Muslim invasion of Egypt in AD 642 (app) . And this does go along with the original OP on religious destruction .

The works of Epicurus are of importance to me. They did find those scrolls in Pompeii which may expound on his work if they are put back together, but it is unlikely he is the author. Luckily for humanity, one single copy of Lucretius' De Rerum Natura survived, and the ancient forerunners of modern scientific enquiry weren't completely lost.