Oral posture, mouthbreathing, and the plight of modern human facial aesthetics

a reply to: DiggerDogg

The American Indian man picture is possibly considered handsome, but a bit rugged also, large facial frame, big cheekbones, big jaw, not my normal type, I prefer more refined features.

There are different characteristics depending on race, of incisors, orbital, mandible, palatal, chin projection and formation etc. that are obviously genetic and developed due to some evolutionary factors. Such characteristics are factors when considering genetic influence on jaw and teeth development etc.

ir.lib.uwo.ca...

a reply to: DiggerDogg

Genetic here. Breathing / snoring problems at age seven. Had tonsils and adenoids removed. Large teeth, small palate and severe overcrowding. This of course, led to ortho at twelve. I also had severe sleep paralysis and I wonder if it had to do with bone structure. Anyway, I have had a palate expander and braces twice. The second time I wore my retainer faithfully for two years as advised. Ten years later, my teeth are shifting, I feel like I can't get enough oxygen when I breathe through my nose when I sleep, and I grind like a wheat mill when I sleep. Clearly ortho is not the answer, but what is when you have structural issues?

a reply to: DiggerDogg

I'll be perfectly honest, I don't buy it. You have zero proof that these facial features are becoming even slightly more prevalent and zero proof that they are associated with allergies, asthma, dental work or anything other than genetics.

I have allergies, asthma, and I have had orthodontic work done (braces) and I have high, strong cheekbones and a prominent (even slightly heavy) jaw, particularly for a female. I also don't breathe through my mouth (unless I'm running and then I am trying to suck air through every orifice in my face, but I think that is normal... maybe I'm wrong).

a reply to: redhorse

What sort of proof do you require to consider the OP's postulation? Do you expect him to publish a study? Can we not simply discuss our own observations of the world around us? Pics or it didn't happen?

My experience supports the notion that poor facial posture is becoming more common. I see more and more young people with weak faces and bad posture (myself included). Might have something to do with being hunched over a smartphone/tablet/monitor all day...

a reply to: redhorse

Well, I'm not asking you to buy anything. Like I said before, a lot of this is very speculative. I'm mainly just throwing out theories here.

However, it definitely isn't all genetic, that much is a fact. "Adenoid face" and "mouth breather profile" are actually real things, accepted by the medical community. But yes, I have no data to support the idea that it's becoming more common, though perhaps in the future you'll be reading an article about it and you'll remember what I've written here.

Anyway, here is an illustration:

i.kinja-img.com...

And here, is a detailed analysis of all the negative health effects of poor breathing habits:

www.jeffersondental.com...


Edit: Also do you know if you breath through your nose while sleeping?

a reply to: theabsolutetruth

Very interesting plates, that you for posting those. You'll notice that both "Mongoloid" and "Negroid" are marked as having greater prognathism, with "Caucasoids" also having the most visible overbite. Possibly, it ties into the fact that "Caucasoid" populations adopting farming a fair bit sooner than the other two groups.

(For anyone who doesn't know, prognathism is the projection of the lower face)

originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist
a reply to: redhorse

What sort of proof do you require to consider the OP's postulation? Do you expect him to publish a study? Can we not simply discuss our own observations of the world around us? Pics or it didn't happen?

My experience supports the notion that poor facial posture is becoming more common. I see more and more young people with weak faces and bad posture (myself included). Might have something to do with being hunched over a smartphone/tablet/monitor all day...

Requiring him/her to publish a study would be a bit much and I don't think... Lemme check... Nope I didn't actually require that. But maybe find a study that would support that this is becoming more prevalent. I think that is reasonable.

The postulation is interesting, but I think genetics are the overriding force here in a "properly formed face", not to mention, personal preference. Lots of people think that my features are too strong (for example). Maybe that's it, we are selecting for more delicate jaws in females and creating an issue...? Or maybe just exacerbating one. Since we are discussing our observations and I am leaning toward a genetic determinant in this one.

a reply to: redhorse

I will look for studies tommorow, after I'm through with work. Already got a few in mind that I've read before. For now though, I should hit the hay.

I'm sure your features are fine. If you haven't noticed, I've got a weakness for well sculpted faces

originally posted by: artnut
a reply to: DiggerDogg

Genetic here. Breathing / snoring problems at age seven. Had tonsils and adenoids removed. Large teeth, small palate and severe overcrowding. This of course, led to ortho at twelve. I also had severe sleep paralysis and I wonder if it had to do with bone structure. Anyway, I have had a palate expander and braces twice. The second time I wore my retainer faithfully for two years as advised. Ten years later, my teeth are shifting, I feel like I can't get enough oxygen when I breathe through my nose when I sleep, and I grind like a wheat mill when I sleep. Clearly ortho is not the answer, but what is when you have structural issues?

Ah, I missed this one at first, I'm sorry.

All I can tell you for certain is that traditional orthodontic practice does not have the answers about what's really causing this and how it should be treated. They can pull out as many teeth as they want, but we still are no closer to a real solution.

I am not a dentist or an orthodontist, so you should of course take anything I suggest with a grain of salt. But, if you want my honest opinion- if you've got children, try to avoid extractions. From what I've seen it only serves to worsen things in the end, and you're left with an even smaller/more dysfunctional mouth than when you started. And with braces/traditional appliances they often try to pull the upper jaw back to even out the teeth, when really they should be pulling the mandible forward. There seems to be a correlation between braces and maxilla retrusion, and this in turn could actually be compressing the Vagus nerve, causing all sorts of problems from headaches, tinnitus to anxiety. So I'd say it might be best to avoid all that if it's not absolutely necessary. I really believe functional appliances are a better choice.

Now palate expanders, I believe those are good and can be really helpful if done correctly.

Also, you might want to read this, it's about wisdom tooth extraction: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

And about breathing- I'm sure it's possible for you to open up your nose enough for sleep, there's a lot of things you can do for that. Strips, steroids, or even endonasal balloons. Also, I would really suggest looking up different breathing methods like Buteyko that could help.

a reply to: DiggerDogg

all i can see is that you linked an image tagged "small" and "penis" and made a few crude remarks judging other people appearance. I would assume your whole argument is in fact a ruse to cover the fact that you think it is hilarious that you linked an image tagged "small" "penis", because I don't see how you could argue your premise on it own merit.

Learned on this thread that tongue to palate is the ideal posture for your mouth. Already have significantly less cracking with my TMJ. Will that authenticate what the OP is saying?

I understand people want to be sure what they are hearing is true, and backed by peer-reviewed studies, etc, but sometimes it is best to analyze what someone is saying with your own intuition and logic without judging the conclusions based on the 'scholarly' source (or lack there of).

Sincerely, I can't thank the OP enough for bringing this to my attention.

I had braces at 13 and I have a "strong chin". My son just got done with braces and his face is more square with a strong chin... So I do not buy it. Strong features are also associated with athleticism too IMHO, along with genetics. When I talk to my son and asked him if the "mouth breathers" at high school are athletic he just laughs and says "no way". Breathing problems have a much closer association to being over weight than anything else....

Odd. Wonder where I fit in.

I breath through my mouth when sleeping, more comfortable for me. Always has been that way. Every now and then during the day too. However, my chin and jaw aren't far back, actually has been the opposite. My lower jaw was so far forward as a child that doctors considered cutting part of it out on both sides. I had braces and rubberbands used to force my lower jaw back. My lower teeth are still ever so slightly in front of my upper. Never had that surgery by the way.

I've always had a long face and defined jaw. I also had a number of dental issues as a child, even suffered with a pallet expander which is horrible if anyone ever experienced such a thing. But my wife from Europe also has her own dental issues, a few of them and grew up as a child in close proximity to Chernobyl. No problem with her jaw or structure but there are problems with her teeth.

While this is an interesting thread, is the suggestion not to have orthodontic work done as a child if needed? I mean, you're born the way you are. In my case, either live with f'd up mouth/dental issues or have them fixed. Even then, I'm partly a mouth breather but my jawline is actually opposite of what the OP is suggesting. Till this day my bottom jaw and bottom teeth are a little in front of my upper.

The ladies love my defined jaw too, so no complaints.I have been told my head looks like an Easter Island statue though, lol.

Too much generalization really. I breath through my mouth and have very average features except thin face but my family had that on both sides for many generations. Had teeth out to prevent crowding as well as genetically missing a pair of laterals. My dad was a dentist and I got sent to the evil orthodontist and I am glad because my teeth were so crowded they were twisting sideways. I always thought it was Scottish inbreeding that caused our family look.

tinypic.com...

Not only does your ideal face have a cleft chin defect caused by the bones failing to fuse properly, but one side of the chin appears to be far from symmetrical to the other. Seth Mcfarlane draws faces far better than this poor specimen represents anything 'ideal'.

That poor man.

# 430

Mouthbreather here too, but mostly during sleep. During the day breathing through nose however. Had asthma in childhood. Heavy asthma. Mouthbreathing was much easier back then. Asthma mostly vanished through puberty (maybe because breast grew larger), but still exists. Got dental brace later, even with stripes leading outside over the head, that hold my mouth together. Even though the stripes were strong, during the night my jaw was stronger and struggled itself open to breath by mouse.

At the seldom times I slept with mouse closed and only nosebreathing I felt much fresher and recovered than with mouthbreathing. However I have not achieved to convert to a nosebreather. My chin is also more behind and I also wondered about that. Some teeth had to be removed, maybe this was a mistake. Also I realized that in fact my face has become longer since childhood. It was more round back then, but now it's longer. Additionally I experience that I'm easier afflicted with sore/swollen throat because of pollen. Meanwhile I accepted it.

Eventually I think OP is right about everything he suggested and is also on the spot about the reasons:
- Asthma causing wrong breathing techniques
- Overcooked food which makes us hardly use the jaw
- Removing of teeth which suddenly dn't fit in the mouth anymore because of the retracted chin

originally posted by: VekTorVik
a reply to: DiggerDogg

all i can see is that you linked an image tagged "small" and "penis" and made a few crude remarks judging other people appearance. I would assume your whole argument is in fact a ruse to cover the fact that you think it is hilarious that you linked an image tagged "small" "penis", because I don't see how you could argue your premise on it own merit.

I suppose you must have added those tags yourself, because they weren't on that photo when I first linked it. The people who originally commented on this thread before you tampered with the picture, can attest to that.

Nice try though, but I had a moderator remove that image from the OP.

So what's the matter then, you didn't like what I wrote? Well get over it. It's not my fault that you match some of those descriptions.

a reply to: MysticPearl

If your lower teeth projected out like that it's probably genetic.

Please, people that are commenting saying- "Well I have a strong jaw and I had braces, so you're wrong"- that's all good and well, but what I'm talking about is a combination of many more factors than just braces and things like that.

Plus, everyone is different. This stuff may not apply to you but it can apply to someone else.

Also, I'm not suggesting no orthodontic work for kids. If they need it done, then get it done! What I am suggesting, is that functional appliances may be superior to braces in many cases.

Hm. My daughter said the other day that when relaxed, she can't really close her lips. A relaxed position for her, they remain open. Her, her brother, and my husband, all have very full lips- which we assumed to be the reason.
They do not have a receding jaw, though my husband and daughter have an oval shaped face. (Son has a heavy square jaw like me).

I was once getting training from an instructor in dressage, and he explained to me how much one can tell about people by looking at their body and faces. He immediately told me I sleep with my mouth closed, my husband with his open. (true) He said he could tell by the muscles in our jaw- mine are highly developed with mass, his are softer.

It was due to how we process thoughts and emotions. I clench my jaw, I ruminate. I spend time processing events inside, in a determined effort to comprehend, organize and choose my next actions. He lets go completely and doesn't think about things. He trusts his instincts and automatic reactions to deal with tomorrow, without need for any analyzation.

We were amazed, this was absolutely true. It also seems to be true about my daughter and son (she also is instinctive and physical, whereas he is more analytical and processes deeply).


It makes me wonder- you make the point about diet in the modern world.... I wonder if life being just more simple, in which one can be dependent upon exterior organization (instead of having to do everything their self, by hand or scratch) might also influence the tendency to let those muscles in the jaw go?

Daughter was breast fed nine months, son one year, bottles were rarely used after that- I don't feel it was much of a influence. I do notice that where I am now, people prefer very cooked and mushy food (purées) and they also seem to have horrible teeth; I've always suspected it is the lack of using them on hard and crunchy stuff that causes it!

Life getting too soft and easy in general, might not be good for our body.