The "nothing" after death

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Those who believe in there being nothing after death, doesn't the same hold true for before you were born? There was nothing or "darkness" and then there was light when you first opened your eyes. That "nothing" turned into this "something" you experience right now, which is what we call life. If you believe there is nothing after we die, would you consider the fact that that "nothing" will eventually turn into "something" just as it did before you were born?

What if where death ends, life begins again? Like I said, the same thing you believe happens after you die was exactly the same as before you were born, yet the nothing before you were born turned into this something. Why, in your opinion, would the same not hold true for the afterlife? What if we're in the "afterlife" right now, or that "nothing" turning into "something", darkness into light.

Just a thought I've been having. The universe is full of cycles, pretty much everything works in cycles, why would we be any different?

Nope! Nada, zilch, nothing!! Get used to it and accept your sad but ultimately true fate! Life ends = 0! Whatever formula you use the equation of life and death always = 0!

a reply to: bb23108

It is self-evident to me that awareness or consciousness is fundamental self-aware being itself and never ages.

MEMORY RECALL/RETRIEVAL
Recall or retrieval of memory refers to the subsequent re-accessing of events or information from the past, which have been previously encoded and stored in the brain. In common parlance, it is known as remembering. During recall, the brain "replays" a pattern of neural activity that was originally generated in response to a particular event, echoing the brain's perception of the real event. In fact, there is no real solid distinction between the act of remembering and the act of thinking.

These replays are not quite identical to the original, though - otherwise we would not know the difference between the genuine experience and the memory - but are mixed with an awareness of the current situation. One corollary of this is that memories are not frozen in time, and new information and suggestions may become incorporated into old memories over time. Thus, remembering can be thought of as an act of creative reimagination.

Self-awareness: Developmental stages
Individuals become conscious of themselves through the development of self-awareness. This particular type of self-development pertains to becoming conscious of one's own body and mental state of mind including thoughts, actions, ideas, feelings and interactions with others. "Self-awareness does not occur suddenly through one particular behavior: it develops gradually through a succession of different behaviors all of which relate to the self."

Since this is a Meta(after)-physics thread, it would be wise to be clear on what the observable physics are before going beyond that.

It seems self-evident to me that 0 self-awareness ( before the brain begins developing in the womb ) to level 5 ( Self-consciousness or "meta" self-awareness ) is a process and not a static state.

My metaphysical theory of self:

As the physical apparatus of recall and self-awareness cease their function ( death ), all the memories of experiences which make up the self as image are gone. The self no longer exists. If there is a something which remains unchanged, that something ( that tiny non-dimensional spark ) may be considered to be the life lost. That life is no longer associated to that self.

If that life spark becomes the life of another new being which develops into a self aware person, that new person is in no way the same person. A different person altogether.

There was nothing for your consciousness before and there will be nothing after.
Heck if you think about it, there's not a whole lot to it now. (meaning people in general)

We spend our days as any other. Absolute necessities like food, waste, sleep, sexual release. That is all that my life has been for several months now with the exception of being on the internet. Absolute basic necessities.

Societal necessities like jobs, entertainment, social activities, family care are all add-ons to our basic needs. Not counting the technology and intelligence that our species has, we don't live terribly different from all the creatures on the planet.

Speaking of which, animals and all life beings would need to be counted within this idea of continuing consciousness after death. There is nothing that sets humans apart biologically from the animals that would make sense. To entertain that we've gleaned some special soul that no other life has on this planet is both presumptuous and arrogant as well as senseless.

So as an ant dies into nothingness when you step upon it, so will you pass into nothing when you go.

What I DO like to entertain is the thought that once I am gone, who's to say the world is still going on?
My perspective of life is the only one I know. Just as yours is the only one you know.
Once I am gone, there will be no stimuli that tell me there is still a world as I am no longer.
So the world goes with me upon my death.

My opinion is based on evidence, where we don't have any evidence that there is something after we or any other living organism on our little planet dies, neither we have any evidence that there was anything there before birth.

Keeping that in mind, and learning from our history, where we always try to defy our mortality, from times of pharaohs in ancient Egypt to current Abrahamic religions, you can see how idea of heaven/hell was induced to produce required effect on masses who believe in afterlife. It gets more interesting if you read about other belief systems. (There is interesting documentary on death and customs in Tibet.

Now, twist in everything is that we think about our self as higher level of being then rest of living creatures, even for example we see that some other humanoids can express feelings and show signs of intelligence, as well some other mammals including dolphins... Why would our life/death be any different then any other living creature? This brings me to interesting quote from Dr. Tyson.

If there is a cat Heaven, and if cat Heaven has mice for cats to chase, seems to me that cat Heaven must then be mice Hell.

So talking strictly about heaven, what someone might think like heaven to someone else might be hell. Just check my signature for clarification...

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

To say there is nothing after death is untrue. It would only be true if something was extinguished like a candle, but as we know much occurs after death. Rigor mortis, for one, proves that very much occurs after death. The decaying process takes a while, and bone lasts for quite some time. There is plenty that occurs after death, just like plenty occurs before birth.

The "Nothing" after death

Finally some peace and quiet!

On a serious note; me belives you must break your spiritual "seed/shell" (like a plant) to gain transcendence in the next state.

Those who fail spiritual expansion and intunement, will be blinded, and sent back into a fetus..

The knowledge is everywhere of what we are, and how we are here. It's in a different language then is spoken, so most do not hear it, and thus fail transcending into spiritual planes.

We are the planted seed, the hueman is what we are in capsulated within, like all great trees and plants, the seedling needs proper care and growth to break the seed/she'll and become it's true potential.

Me thinks we are spiritual conscious beings, of non physical MA-tter, within seed, which needs to be broken so the internal can transcend the external.

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever"
Genesis 3:22

There's my dose for the day

I don't think an intellectual argument works for people who are firm believers they just pass away. Philosophers were probably divided on this issue too, though most seemed to be of a spiritual or gnostic leaning.

This has to do with whether one does deep thinking, whether they question what is around them, meditates and tries out various things for themselves, or experiences something.

People on both sides of this issue can have deep integrity.

You come from, are, and go back to the "is-ness".

It's what just....is.

That's the only way I can describe it in words. There just is this...is-ness. It just IS.

a reply to: gottaknow

There is nothing that sets humans apart biologically from the animals that would make sense. To entertain that we've gleaned some special soul that no other life has on this planet is both presumptuous and arrogant as well as senseless.

So as an ant dies into nothingness when you step upon it, so will you pass into nothing when you go.

Hey gottaknow,

Very thought provoking statements. Thank you.

Humans - Animals

First we must get past the obvious chauvinism. If identified, it would look like this: "I am human; therefore humans are superior." Just looking at it in print makes it look like something that should be easily dispensed with.

As for stepping on ants: There is very limited information to be gained that way.

I was digging through my library and found this ancient story that I just made up.

The Ant Discourse

I have been watching this one particular ant (Insecta Hymenoptera Formicidae Myrmicinae Pheidolini Messor) colony for the past 4 years. Observation has been conducted not only in situ, but also at home where I've transferred 20 or so individuals to a glass container half-filled with soil, wherein they dig tunnels.

At home, in the glass container half-filled with dirt for ants to make tunnels in ( I better shorten that description, call it ant farm tm, what the..., okay formicarium ), anyway, in the formicarium the ants would deposit their dead at the end of a tunnel, and then close that tunnel off.

At the colony from which these same ants were taken funerary practices differed. The dead were taken to a separate clearing approximately 2 1/2 feet away from the clearing which contained the colony's opening into the ground.

I saw one of the ants returning down a trail toward the colony carrying a wild oat grain, so I asked her, "Why do you place your dead where you do?"

She replied, "You are mad. I am carrying food. Don't bother me. I'm busy."

So I waited and watched until I saw a different ant carrying a dead ant toward the ant cemetery. "Excuse me", I said, "could you tell me why you're carrying that dead ant to that spot?"

She replied, "You are mad. This ant isn't dead. Don't bother me. I'm busy."

I looked at the passenger and noted that there was in fact still some movement of legs and antenae. "Excuse me", I said, "I notice that you are not busy, so I wonder if you could answer a question for me?"

She replied, "Only busy dying. Go ahead and ask."

"Why are your dead separated from your living in this way?"

"Quite simple really. The smell. We ants have what you humans call a primitive nervous system. We act and react based upon smell. No thinking required, very efficient.

"You humans have what you would consider an advanced nervous system. Big brains full of all sorts of arcane activity, such as thinking, remembering, imagining. In fact, if you think about it with that big ole brain of yours, you would realize that this very conversation we're having is really only in your imagination."

"Okay, now that I think about it, yes, I think this probably is in my mind, imaginary as you say. So can you explain what you mean that it's the smell?"

"We mark our trails to food sources with a scented chemical. As the chemical breaks down, the scent changes in ways that humans are incapable of detecting. We can however because of our superiority. I'm not trying to be offensive, just stating the facts."

The pal-bearing ant arrived at the cemetery and set the passenger down. The passenger continued, "The age of the scent indicates the freshness of food source, as in, how recently it has been discovered. The dead don't die all at once. The scent of the dead is of various recentness.

"So the answer is that the colony would be confused by all the differences of agedness. We would be dysfunctional. Therefore we separate the dead from the living."

"I think I understand," I said. "How about life after death?"

There was no reply. The ant was dead.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

I can't accept there is absolutely nothing after death. The world is not stupid. It creates, it recycles to what point I don't know BUT nothing is completely useless. I've had several dreams about my mum (deceased) and I asked her "What happens after?" She gave me that look I know too well that means what kind of damn fool are you? She said "You already know". I take it to mean I've been there and back - reincarnated. Which is what I''ve always thought was the case. Explain 3 year olds knowing how to play the piano, paint like daVinci, complex abilities that came so naturally. We learn that over many years normally. We aren't born with it?? Why not perfect it over lifetimes? This environment is harsh to a corporeal body -why not come back till you get it right. Unfortunately things change. You may not get to perfect anything if you are a classical artist or a maestro - this age respects neither. But you learn and grow as a soul. That's what goes on. That little spark. Fighting against the swift wind. Fighting against the dark. Will become, will be, and will have been, but here you are back again.

originally posted by: pthena
It seems self-evident to me that 0 self-awareness ( before the brain begins developing in the womb ) to level 5 ( Self-consciousness or "meta" self-awareness ) is a process and not a static state.

You missed my earlier post where i defined self-aware Consciousness or Awareness as not simply being the conscious waking mind.

originally posted by: pthena
My metaphysical theory of self:

As the physical apparatus of recall and self-awareness cease their function ( death ), all the memories of experiences which make up the self as image are gone. The self no longer exists. If there is a something which remains unchanged, that something ( that tiny non-dimensional spark ) may be considered to be the life lost. That life is no longer associated to that self.

If that life spark becomes the life of another new being which develops into a self aware person, that new person is in no way the same person. A different person altogether.

Yes, the aspect of the conscious brain-mind that perceives, via feedback from the five senses, is obviously gone. But functions of the higher mind and attention (associated with unqualified Awareness still) continue into subtler dimensions.

The self you describe as being dead never did exist as an entity - it is an illusion based on the continuous contraction of attention - the mechanism of point-of-view-making in order to observe objects and others. This continuous activity is the root focal point we identify as "self" and upon which all sorts of presumptions are built - such as we are separate entities, and also only the body-mind.

There is no inner entity that is a separate self - it is just the activity of constantly creating a sense of separation, by awareness identifying with a particular point-of-view in time and space.

a reply to: bb23108

You missed my earlier post where i defined self-aware Consciousness or Awareness as not simply being the conscious waking mind.

Yes, I hadn't read the post with definitions before responding. But it was a subsequent post rather than a previous post.

I will read all of your posts, and see if I can understand what I'm missing.

Thank you.

ETA

Some of my response was not to your post specifically, but rather toward the general idea of the self being like a computer, Hard Drive, RAM, CPU, etc. I responded to your post, because it contained what I felt I could respond to and use as a launching soap box from which to deliver my theory. I hope you don't mind.

originally posted by: pthena
Some of my response was not to your post specifically, but rather toward the general idea of the self being like a computer, Hard Drive, RAM, CPU, etc. I responded to your post, because it contained what I felt I could respond to and use as a launching soap box from which to deliver my theory. I hope you don't mind.

No worries. Thanks for the clarification.

I often wonder how the AI folks, who also look at the body-mind as a computer (even a quantum one), will explain exactly at what point does the informational circuitry, etc. simulating the brain-mind, emerge as self-aware consciousness?

This is also where the materialistic model of the body-mind fails in my view - at what point of combining various physical cells does consciousness emerge? How many cells does it take?

The root of the problem is that Consciousness is unconditional, and cannot be created based on conditional elements.

Ok, yeah i've thought about that too. We don't remember existing say as a Caveman, or say in the 1500's so what does it really matter, if we just keep being reborn again and again but never "know" we are who we are? Then what's the point of contemplating it? If you just get erased and if your lifeforce begins again as a new "born" person, i don't see that it matters if you don't remember any previous lifetime...

Not being born/alive is the same thing as being dead. Life is the middle state before being born and dying.

a reply to: EveStreet

Yeah so maybe the kid that can play the piano, in a previous life was a piano player and some of that energy carried over to the new "you" "him" "her" it really doesn't matter if that new "you" is really someone else...

I don't want to sound insulting. I am just asking a question. I know it is a little off-topic, but a lot of this discussion thread goes to whether consciousness exists, or is at all notable in the world.

Reading this thread, and also this one:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I am beginning to think there is some sort of odd and pervasive blindness among some people here at ATS, and perhaps within society in general.

It seems like there are certain people (not all -- just some) that have lost self-identity, or understanding of their individual presence.

I understand that there are some topics here at ATS that are confusing and debatable. (Who really gets "Schrodinger's cat correct here at ATS?)

But the fact that you are "here" -- reading this -- the center of a universe moderated by knowledge and understanding that there exist similar entities here, and that you are MORE than just a series of chemical reactions, a brain, etc. -- I don't see how that point can be lost -- or NEEDS EXPLANATION!

Seriously, is there a class of people that don't feel the sense of being alive? Zombies? Living, but somehow unaware? Or is this just some people playing mind games and being facetious for the heck of it?

It appears some people don't have much self-consciousness or self-awareness compared to other people, or are living a type of numbed existence. If you are in that state, then try to shake that off -- you will see clearly that consciousness is not entirely really part of the physical world. The idea of consciousness surviving material death very reasonable and not very debatable.

Some people here will understand what I am saying -- I think others aren't going to get it -- like there are two types of people and two modes of existence for people, perhaps -- like those that have sight and those that are blind.

a reply to: gottaknow

So as an ant dies into nothingness when you step upon it, so will you pass into nothing when you go.

Technically, there is no such thing as nothing.

To add:
We can't remember what it was like to experience coming into physical existence. I wish we could.
However, we all will experience what it is like to fall out of physical existence. And it may very well be our last experience. I wonder about it.

hmmm....well lets ask someone who knows....who here has died and came back to tell us all???

Hands up...don't be shy!

From nothing comes nothing. That's why we end up thus.