Second Fake Dutch Moon Rock Given To The Queen Of The Netherlands By Apollo 11 Crew!

originally posted by: DelMarvel

originally posted by: bobbypurify
a reply to: DJW001
That's what I like to discuss. How it could be done here rather than proof of authenticity.

Feel free to discuss that.

Let's start with who brought Stanley Kubrick's coffee. Since every possible minute issue is up for discussion.

Pretty funny post but irrelevant as it was intended to be.

We could also discuss how it is that the special effects experts who supposedly made these films managed to make it through the seventies in Hollywood without a single one ever getting blitzed and spilling the beans to somebody.

How do you know this didn't happen? And how do you know they work in Hollywood? Kubrick made some interesting analogies in "The Shining". Of course, I doubt you find them interesting.

And I'm still interested in that specific description of the "couple of hundred" people that could have pulled this off on their own without any of the other thirty thousand plus NASA workers finding out.
Boy, you really have yet to grasp how large scale operations work or you're just being obtuse. Anywho, funny post. If you have some real questions bring them over to the moon disclosure thread and I'll try and tackle them there or I'm sure someone else will. Thanks!

originally posted by: bobbypurify
a reply to: TheWhisper

Apollo is a sacred cow. You just have to understand that you will be approached by posters who almost seem offended and often, mods as well! Comes with the territory. I would not worry for you can't control where your threads are placed ultimately. But if you're onto something, then the truth will win.

You are correct if the case of the given moon rock to the Queen of the Netherlands is not correct and TW get information about it then it will also be shared. Until now not one lead has been found that indicates the at article that started this thread is wrong. The unreleased source has more leads and that is why it is not released yet. In time it will be released and that is the moment everything will be wrapped together. The end result will be swing to one or the other side to TW it doesn't really matter as we search for truth. When it is all done people may come to their own conclusion based on the information.

The article that started this tread tells:
When the astronaut arrived the Queen received a replica of the message the astronauts left on the moon and a PIECE OF MOON ROCK.

Dutch National Geographic reports
"Most moon rocks are in position of museums, royalties and former heads of states. President Nixon did give away moon rock between 1969 and 1973 as gifts."
www.nationalgeographic.nl...

Credits to DJW001 for finding this information.
President Nixon liked to give them out personally, but sometimes they were awarded by a diplomat or a NASA official. Many of these samples have '"gone missing."
en.wikipedia.org...

Well Armstrong was a NASA official and it also states that many samples have gone missing. The moon rock mentioned in the first article as given to the Queen by Neil Armstrong is gone missing or is still somewhere in the Royal family.

Armstrong is a NASA official and according the wiki article allowed to give moon rock away. In 1969 he was in the Netherlands and as the Dutch National Geographic reports moon rocks were given away in 1969.

The unreleased source tells that the Apollo astronauts did give rocks away during the goodwill tour. A picture of what may have happened start emerge out of the mist that was hanging over it for almost 46 years.

a reply to: TheWhisper

Please start reading other people's posts! No-one is saying that the Netherlands did not get a Moon Rock at some point!!!!! What you have to do is explain why you think it is fake!!!

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: TheWhisper

Please start reading other people's posts! No-one is saying that the Netherlands did not get a Moon Rock at some point!!!!! What you have to do is explain why you think it is fake!!!

NASA states that no moon rock was given to anyone during the goodwill tour visit to the Netherlands on 9 October 1969. If that is true what NASA tells then the rock Neil did give to the Queen is not a real moon rock.

a reply to: TheWhisper

Please provide any kind of proof that Armstrong ever gave a moon rock to the Queen, real or otherwise. All you ever do is CLAIM that you have evidence, but you persistently refuse to present it.

originally posted by: captainpudding
a reply to: TheWhisper

Please provide any kind of proof that Armstrong ever gave a moon rock to the Queen, real or otherwise. All you ever do is CLAIM that you have evidence, but you persistently refuse to present it.

The first indication of evidence is already provided by the source article, it is not debunked by anyone here.

"When the astronaut arrived the Queen received a replica of the message the astronauts left on the moon and a PIECE OF MOON ROCK."

The second source is confirmed and a serious third lead is now under investigation. It is indeed a claim made by TW and we can back it up. If you are serious interested in information than you are always welcome to share it. What information you have found about this story that the Dutch Queen did get a moon rock from the Apollo 11 astronauts?

a reply to: TheWhisper

NASA states that no moon rock was given to anyone during the goodwill tour visit to the Netherlands on 9 October 1969. If that is true what NASA tells then the rock Neil did give to the Queen is not a real moon rock.

Where does NASA say no Moon Rocks were given to anyone on the good will tour? Your entire argument is founded on a series of strawmen.

Just registered because this is really going nowhere:


Lets try to focus on some facts:

Queen Juliana did receive two times some pieces of moon rock. First from Apollo 11 and the last from Apollo 17, both part of the "Goodwill rocks" ( source )

Both were gifted to the Boerhaave museum in Leiden (not sure when this happened, but they were on display in 2009)
Apollo 11
Apollo 17

These are the only two pieces of moon rock known to exist in the Netherlands.


The question is if it is possible this first stone was given by the astronauts during the Giant Leap tour as claimed in the article in TS.
The answer is No.

Why? The "Giant Leap" tour took place on 9 October 1969 in the Netherlands, however the display as present in the Boerhaave museum were created after that data, and were most likely to be received in 1970:

In November 1969, then-U.S. President Richard Nixon requested that NASA create approximately 250 displays containing lunar surface material and the flags of 135 nations, U.S. possessions and states. Each presentation included 0.05 grams of Apollo 11 moon dust, in the form of four small pieces encased in an acrylic button, as well as the flag of the recipient nation or state, also flown on the first manned lunar landing mission.

Source


So the question is if the astronauts did gave another piece of moon rock to the queen or did the writer of the article made a mistake?
Currently the one and only source for this claim is the article in TS. Nowhere else is this mentioned, also it seems like the writer of the article made the exact same mistake as The Whisper did in his TS. He thought the queen was holding the stone in her hand; is it possible the same mistake was made more then 45 years ago?

a reply to: MissVocalcord

Thank you. Mystery solved. This thread can now be closed... or moved to [HOAX!]

originally posted by: MissVocalcord
These are the only two pieces of moon rock known to exist in the Netherlands.

One addition to this, to be fully correct: There is a third piece of moon rock present in the Netherlands, however this is still officially owned by NASA. It is on display in the Space Expo in Noordwijk

Hier vind je raketten, een maanlander, het International Space Station, het astronautenpak van André Kuipers, een echte maansteen en nog veel meer...

(Here you can find rockets, a moonlander, the ISS, André Kuipers spacesuit, a real moonstone and many more...)

Space Expo

In de ‘schatkamer’ van Space Expo in Noordwijk ligt wél een echte maansteen. Ingegoten in een perspex piramide. Hij is een paar centimeter groot en weegt 178 gram. Maar volgens voorlichter Hans van der Lande is deze steen, meegenomen door de Apollo 17-astronauten, geen Nederlands eigendom. ‘We hebben hem in permanente bruikleen van NASA.’

(The 'treasure chest' of Space Expo in Noordwijk indeed contains a real moonstone . Potted in a perspex pyramid. He's a few inches tall and weighs 178 grams. But according to spokesman Hans van der Lande this stone, taken by the Apollo 17 astronauts , is no Dutch ownership . "We have him on permanent loan from NASA.")

Source

originally posted by: MissVocalcord
Just registered because this is really going nowhere:


Lets try to focus on some facts:

Queen Juliana did receive two times some pieces of moon rock. First from Apollo 11 and the last from Apollo 17, both part of the "Goodwill rocks" ( source )

Both were gifted to the Boerhaave museum in Leiden (not sure when this happened, but they were on display in 2009)
Apollo 11
Apollo 17

These are the only two pieces of moon rock known to exist in the Netherlands.


The question is if it is possible this first stone was given by the astronauts during the Giant Leap tour as claimed in the article in TS.
The answer is No.

Why? The "Giant Leap" tour took place on 9 October 1969 in the Netherlands, however the display as present in the Boerhaave museum were created after that data, and were most likely to be received in 1970:

In November 1969, then-U.S. President Richard Nixon requested that NASA create approximately 250 displays containing lunar surface material and the flags of 135 nations, U.S. possessions and states. Each presentation included 0.05 grams of Apollo 11 moon dust, in the form of four small pieces encased in an acrylic button, as well as the flag of the recipient nation or state, also flown on the first manned lunar landing mission.

Source


So the question is if the astronauts did gave another piece of moon rock to the queen or did the writer of the article made a mistake?
Currently the one and only source for this claim is the article in TS. Nowhere else is this mentioned, also it seems like the writer of the article made the exact same mistake as The Whisper did in his TS. He thought the queen was holding the stone in her hand; is it possible the same mistake was made more then 45 years ago?

Hello MissVocalcord,

Long time ago!

It is always a pleasure to debate people who do research. Also it is good that you understand Dutch as some people here did claim that the translation of "maansteen" to moon rock was a wrong translation. Please can you confirm that the translation to moon rock is accurate.

You say:
"Why? The "Giant Leap" tour took place on 9 October 1969 in the Netherlands, however the display as present in the Boerhaave museum were created after that data, and were most likely to be received in 1970:"

Most likely indicates that you are not sure, the source article TW used is clearly stating that the Queen revived a moon rock from the astronauts during that visit on the 9 October 1969. As you have also access to archives you must know that there are more references to this in the Netherlands and even outside the Netherlands. Also TW assumes that you are aware of protocols during an official visit to a head of state. You always present to most imported gift the the head of state ( The Dutch Queen in this case) not a former PM Drees in this case.

Even the US ambassador thought it was a moon rock he had presented to Drees as the following quote from the Telegraph.co.uk shows.
“I do remember that Drees was very interested in the little piece of stone. But that it’s not real, I don’t know anything about that,” Mr Middendorf said.

But that it’s not real, I don’t know anything about that, indicates that Middendorf also thought it was a real moon rock.

Protocols of the elite are clear you present the head of state (The Dutch Queen in this case) with at least a similar important gift. What was given to the Queen as a moon rock must also be a fake moon rock as it should at least as big (preferable bigger remember the protocol) as the fake moon rock present to former PM Drees.

Lets debate moon rocks given in 1969 not the moon rocks that given away after 1969 as that is not what this thread is about.

This is what is debated here 9 October 1969.
"When the astronaut arrived at the palace the Queen received a replica of the message the astronauts left on the moon and a PIECE OF MOON ROCK."

originally posted by: bobbypurify
Boy, you really have yet to grasp how large scale operations work or you're just being obtuse. Anywho, funny post. If you have some real questions bring them over to the moon disclosure thread and I'll try and tackle them there or I'm sure someone else will. Thanks!

I asked a real question. Give me a specific description of the "couple of hundred" people who could have pulled this off while no one else at NASA knew. Since you believe you "grasp how large scale operations work" while I don't. There were tens of thousands of people working for NASA at the time in largely hierarchical organizations. Wherever you draw the line between those who supposedly knew and those who didn't you're going to have superiors trying to pull the wool over the eyes of highly intelligent, expert subordinates who had years of involvement in this "large scale operation." For example, was Gene Kranz in on it while John Aaron wasn't? Give me some specific breakdowns about how this would have worked.

a reply to: DelMarvel

So, by your logic, every enlisted person in the army in the early 1900s knew about the fake footage of crew being rescued from a sinking Litsutania? I'm not going to explain how it works, Compartmentalization, because you will just keep dragging it out with impossible questions in your quest to keep the moon landings alive, no thanks! Have a good one, bro!!

originally posted by: TheWhisper
Please can you confirm that the translation to moon rock is accurate.

As with most things it depends on the context, but for the sake of this thread I do agree "rock" is an accurate enough translation for "steen". ("stone" might also do it I guess). (although I would describe the Apollo 11 pieces more as "dust" ).

Most likely indicates that you are not sure

I am not sure about the exact date Queen Juliana received the moon rock (and flag). I am sure the date is after the visit of the astronauts.

As you have also access to archives you must know that there are more references to this in the Netherlands and even outside the Netherlands.

Not sure what your are talking about exactly but: No, the newspaper you quote in the TS is the one and only source I have seen claiming a piece of moon rock was given to the Queen at that visit on 9 October 1969.

This is what is debated here 9 October 1969

Indeed, the alleged moon rock Drees would have received story is a completely different one, I ignore that story, it is unrelated. It is not even proven or clear Drees was present at the visit.

When the astronaut arrived at the palace the Queen received a replica of the message the astronauts left on the moon and a PIECE OF MOON ROCK.

Then the above is all your left with, a single quote in a single newspaper, as I have told you many times before, repeating something doesn't make it magically become more true.

People make mistakes and it seems like the writer of this text for a photo did it too...
(just like you have also done in this thread)

originally posted by: MissVocalcord

originally posted by: TheWhisper
Please can you confirm that the translation to moon rock is accurate.

As with most things it depends on the context, but for the sake of this thread I do agree "rock" is an accurate enough translation for "steen". ("stone" might also do it I guess). (although I would describe the Apollo 11 pieces more as "dust"

).

Most likely indicates that you are not sure

I am not sure about the exact date Queen Juliana received the moon rock (and flag). I am sure the date is after the visit of the astronauts.

As you have also access to archives you must know that there are more references to this in the Netherlands and even outside the Netherlands.

Not sure what your are talking about exactly but: No, the newspaper you quote in the TS is the one and only source I have seen claiming a piece of moon rock was given to the Queen at that visit on 9 October 1969.

This is what is debated here 9 October 1969

Indeed, the alleged moon rock Drees would have received story is a completely different one, I ignore that story, it is unrelated. It is not even proven or clear Drees was present at the visit.

When the astronaut arrived at the palace the Queen received a replica of the message the astronauts left on the moon and a PIECE OF MOON ROCK.

Then the above is all your left with, a single quote in a single newspaper, as I have told you many times before, repeating something doesn't make it magically become more true.

People make mistakes and it seems like the writer of this text for a photo did it too...
(just like you have also done in this thread)

Thank you for confirming the translation moon rock as accurate.

You say,
"I am not sure about the exact date Queen Juliana received the moon rock (and flag). I am sure the date is after the visit of the astronauts."

You confirm here that the rock given to the Queen (according the news article 9 october 1969) was not accomplished by a flag. So we can now establish that the moon rock given by the Apollo 11 astronauts was not accomplished by a flag. That means the Queen got a moon rock without a flag on the 9 October 1969.

"Not sure what your are talking about exactly but: No, the newspaper you quote in the TS is the one and only source I have seen claiming a piece of moon rock was given to the Queen at that visit on 9 October 1969."

Then you should look better in the archives you have access to. Lets say you find a article that confirms the article that TW found would you tell that here? If you are not sure what TW talks about it are the archives you have access to is it as simple as that. What is TS?

"Indeed, the alleged moon rock Drees would have received story is a completely different one, I ignore that story, it is unrelated. It is not even proven or clear Drees was present at the visit."

You ignore the protocol that is well known. The astronauts were well aware and instructed about the protocols. if you need prove of that we can provide it but TW thinks that you are well aware of it. Ignoring that the US ambassador even thought it was a moon rock he presented to Drees cannot be ignored for the simple fact that you cannot ignore the protocol during a visit to a head of state.

"Then the above is all your left with, a single quote in a single newspaper, as I have told you many times before, repeating something doesn't make it magically become more true.

People make mistakes and it seems like the writer of this text for a photo did it too...
(just like you have also done in this thread)"

Please provide a rectification written by the newspaper or the journalist, it is common practice in the Netherlands to do that. Except the NOS they do ignore some 100% provable mistakes they made about the Apollo moon landings and they are not a reliable source this days. Repeating that the source is wrong without prove is not showing any research.

Have you ever found an article that a moon rock was given to Drees from 1969? No article at all and still he was presented with a "moon rock" that later was exposed as a fake moon rock.

TW has released the first article that states that the Queen got a moon rock from the astronauts that is already 100% more then what was written about the fake moon rock given to Drees.

TheWhisper
You confirm here that the rock given to the Queen (according the news article 9 october 1969) was not accomplished by a flag..

No I am not confirming any such thing. You are completely misinterpreting what I'm writing, please read it again:

I am not sure about the exact date Queen Juliana received the moon rock (and flag). I am sure the date is after the visit of the astronauts.

Where do I say a moon rock was given to the Queen on 9 october 1969? I don't, I even make it very clear any moonrock given was after 9 october 1969. How is it possible for you to read exact the opposite?

Then you should look better in the archives you have access to.

I'm not interested in a hide and seek game, if you think you have another source backing up your article in TS just post it, like I've done too. So far you have only come up with a single source. You expect people to post everything here, but you are trying to hide yourself behind 'research'.
If you have something interesting to post; post it. Otherwise don't mention it and do your research in silence.
(All the information in my first post took me no longer then 5 minutes to find, but you weren't able to do this before you created this thread?)

What is TS?

Topic Start(er) (the first post starting the topic, or the person who started it).

TheWhisper
Please provide a rectification written by the newspaper or the journalist, it is common practice in the Netherlands to do that.

You would probably need another newspaper for all the rectifications if that was the case.
Seriously; every error in any single newspaper which isn't rectificated(?) becomes automatically true all of a sudden?

In order for a rectification the journalist also would need to known he was wrong. If that is not the case there won't ever be a rectification. How many people would be aware of the mistake? The Queen, the astronauts, some members of the press maybe. How likely is it that any of these would read the "Niewsblad van het Noorden" and write them to notify them about such a mistake.


However the burden of proof is still on you: you claim the Queen was given a moon rock on 9 October 1969, but the only source you have is this newspaper...
No rock (other than the two known ones) was ever found in the Netherlands, no other source (so far) backs up your claims.
Not a single news source mentions this big gift and we do know NASA isn't and wasn't handing out moon rocks like candy.

Listen to e.g. the polygoon journaal for that event (around 30 seconds):

De drie mannen die de reis naar de maan maakten en van wie Armstrong en Aldrin op deze planeet wandelden boden twee geschenken aan; Een microfilm met onder andere de boodschap die Koninging Juliana ter gelegenheid van de eerste maanlanding aan de astronauten meegaf en een kopie van de plaguette die zij op de maan hebben achter gelaten.

(The three men who made the trip to the moon and of whom Armstrong and Aldrin walked on this planet offered two gifts; A microfilm including the message that Queen Juliana on the occasion of the first moon landing the astronauts gave and a copy of the plaguette they left behind on the moon)

www.npogeschiedenis.nl...
So here we have a source very clearly stating only TWO gifts were given; a moon rock wasn't one of them. If this rock would have been given of course it would have been mentioned here too; don't you think?

a reply to: MissVocalcord

"No I am not confirming any such thing. You are completely misinterpreting what I'm writing, please read it again:"

You did as you say that the moon rocks that were accomplished by the Dutch flag were not given to the Dutch Queen during the visit on 9 October 1969. That is correct as the protocol would not allow that Drees would get a bigger moon rock as the head of state (Queen Juliana). So you confirmed that the moon rock given to the Queen must be another moon rock then the Apollo 11 samples that is now in the Dutch museum.

Your only argument is that the article is wrong but you have not shown any prove of that. You may assume that the article is wrong but that is not based on research but believe.


"Where do I say a moon rock was given to the Queen on 9 october 1969? I don't, I even make it very clear any moonrock given was after 9 october 1969. How is it possible for you to read exact the opposite?"

Well you don't have to say it a news article dated 9 October 1969 is stating it. If you think it is wrong what is written in that article then provide prove. The other moon rock you mention are given at a later date as you state yourself. SoTW does agree with you that these other moon rock are not given on 9 october 1969. That makes the moon rock given by the Apollo 11 crew tothe Queen a unknown moon rock. So forget the others that is agreed on what have you found in your own archive/research about this moon rock given to the Queen by the astronauts on 9 October 1969. Why don't you answer that question?


"All the information in my first post took me no longer then 5 minutes to find, but you weren't able to do this before you created this thread?"

It shows that it is done in 5 minutes as it has nothing to do with the moon rock given to the Queen by the Apollo 11 astronauts on 9 October 1969. you don't want to play hide and seek that is agreed on now what sources you have found that support the article that states that the Apollo 11 astronauts did give the queen a moon rock on 9 october 1969. Please can you answer that question.

TheWhisper
Your only argument is that the article is wrong but you have not shown any prove of that.

Look to the link I gave in my previous post about the same event;
It clearly states only two gifts were given (not one, not three; two); a moon rock wasn't one of them; This contradicts your news paper a moon rock was given at that event.

So forget the others that is agreed on what have you found in your own archive/research about this moon rock given to the Queen by the astronauts on 9 October 1969. Why don't you answer that question?

Please can you answer that question.

I already answered that question in this post. The one and only source I have seen for this claim is this news paper in your TS.

However you claim you have other sources backing up this news paper; Now it is time for you to come clear; where are they?

It shows that it is done in 5 minutes as it has nothing to do with the moon rock given to the Queen by the Apollo 11 astronauts on 9 October 1969.

Yes it certainly does; you even asked about it yesterday:

TheWhisper
So Rocks are given away in 1969 who did get this rocks and who did hand then over?

This thread was then already 2 days old and you still weren't able to find this very basic widely available information, and now all of a sudden this information "has nothing to do with" it.

a reply to: MissVocalcord

So here we have a source very clearly stating only TWO gifts were given; a moon rock wasn't one of them. If this rock would have been given of course it would have been mentioned here too; don't you think?

Any 1969 article from the NOP/NOS or any other news source that states that Drees got a "moon rock" during that same visit? If your answer is no then by not mention the moon rock given to the Queen by most media means not it did not happen. At least one journalist did pick up the story and published it on 9 October 1969. Again the same question for you as you not answering it What sources you have found that support the article that states that the Apollo 11 astronauts did give the queen a moon rock on 9 october 1969. Please can you answer that question.