Was Their Really An Armenian Genocide ? History Says No.

a reply to: Kapusta

Based on the fact that you tried to pass off a propaganda piece as an official Standford University Study, your second source does not interest me as you lost all credablility with that first farce of a source.

I woundn't knock wiki if I were you, at least it doesn't deal in propaganda isn't a biased source like yours are. If you don't like the wiki, go change it, but beware the weeds you plant will be pulled from their roots.

US military huh? Guess you missed this:

Sure would make it look like a civil war to the uninformed outsider wouldn't it?


Oh and by the way:

The Niles and Sutherland Report was a report commissioned by the United States Congress in 1919 to investigate conditions in the Ottoman Empire's eastern provinces in the aftermath of World War I, and to assess what sort of aid was needed and whether that aid could be provided by the American Committee for Relief in the Near East (Near East Relief). It was prepared by Captain Emory H. Niles of the United States Army and Arthur E. Sutherland Jr., and was based on their investigations at the city of Van and its vicinity.

Emphasis mine. These guys weren't sent there by Wilson to assess whether or not a genocide had taken place.

Niles and Sutherland were escorted by Turkish Military Guards the entire time. Kind of like how tourists in North Korea are not tourists, they are on a tour.

Go spew your propaganda somewhere else.

a reply to: totalperdition

Don't know why your so hostile in tone ?

I am just looking for truth .

The stanford doc did not seem to bias to me . it sugested both sudes played a roll in killing each other.

So ill ask you do you think the US military's
Investigation conclusion that it was NOT a genocide is propaganda?

originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: Kapusta

On the anniversary of the genocide, Turkey decided to celebrate the defeat of the allies in Gallipoli instead, class folks for sure, real EU material.

As an ally from Europe, i don't have a problem with Turkey celebrating a victory. You can guarantee if we Brits had won, we'd have been crowing about it too.

Greece has been the main obstacle to Turkey joining, although as ManFromEurope points out, i think Greece have been used somewhat as cover for the rest of Europe dragging their heels - a bit of the usual two faced politik at international level - "of course my good man, we would love you to be members. It's just rather unfortunate that we can't help at the moment until ONE of our existing members changes their mind".

a reply to: Kapusta

Wow dude, do you have the forked tongue of a serpent?

So ill ask you do you think the US military's Investigation conclusion that it was NOT a genocide is propaganda?

You see here, you have worded the question in such a way as to imply that I believe that the report is propaganda.

Seriously??? That's some messed up **** right there.

The report, the reason behind it, and the people behind it are being used in propaganda. These things are not propaganda in and of themselves.

originally posted by: totalperdition
a reply to: Kapusta

Wow dude, you have the forked tongue of a serpent.

So ill ask you do you think the US military's Investigation conclusion that it was NOT a genocide is propaganda?

You see here, you have worded the question in such a way as to imply that I believe that the report is propaganda.

Seriously??? That's some messed up **** right there.

The report, the reason behind it, and the people behind it are being used in propaganda. These things are not propaganda in and of themselves.

Hmmm ok? Well the Military reports conclude their was no genocide and seem to be on par with this "stanford" document you claim to be propaganda. Try reading the report some time .

On a side note stop throwing out insults. Be respectful I stated in my OP i was neutral on my position . i am not denying that many were killed i am simply questioning weather or not the acts constitute "genocide" both Armenians and Muslims were killed during this time.

a reply to: Kapusta

Don't know why your so hostile in tone ? I am just looking for truth .

i was neutral on my position

No sir, you are not. You are here to distort the truth and deny history.

The title of your thread is : Was Their Really An Armenian Genocide? History Says No.

Yet you ignore all scholars and historians who say yes. How are you neutral? Your agenda is clear.

Someone who claims to be neutral, and seeking truth would have titled the OP as such:

Was There Really An Armenian Genocide?

They would have presented facts, articles and pictures from both sides of the argument.

You seek no truth here sir, you only seek to spread propaganda. You have made up your mind and only wish to spread your way of thinking to others.

Sorry dude, the ATS community is smarter than that.

A rose is a rose is it not? Wiping out an entire population based on ethnicity smells the same to me.

As far as the initial fighting goes, I would think anyone would fight against their own extinction. Even though the U.S. had plans to "remove" the native Americans, somehow that was never labeled a genocide, however, the U.S. war cry was "the only good injun is a dead injun". History is written by the victors in every case.

a reply to: Kapusta

Dude I just finished reading the Niles and Sutherland report. Like I said, there is no conclusion in there about a genocide not taking place.

In fact like I pointed out earlier, that was not the intent of the report or the reason they went there.

Here is a link to the report...
Link to Niles and Sutherland report.

Also like I said, they were under Turkish escort. Additionally they only investigated in and near the city of Van.

Bottom line: They were there to asses the situation in 1919 and decide whether or not the US should provide aid.They were not historians, or forensic investigators. They came to no conclusions about whether or not a genocide had taken place and certainly weren't there to do so.

Like I said before, to an outsider, under Turkish escort, with limited exploration of the region, it seems like a civil war.


Yet you ignored all of this.

You used sources that do not backup your claim of "history says no" and said they do.

You seek no truth.
You are not neutral.

Deny Ignorance.

originally posted by: totalperdition
a reply to: Kapusta

Don't know why your so hostile in tone ? I am just looking for truth .

i was neutral on my position

No sir, you are not. You are here to distort the truth and deny history.

The title of your thread is : Was Their Really An Armenian Genocide? History Says No.

Yet you ignore all scholars and historians who say yes. How are you neutral? Your agenda is clear.

Someone who claims to be neutral, and seeking truth would have titled the OP as such:

Was There Really An Armenian Genocide?

They would have presented facts, articles and pictures from both sides of the argument.

You seek no truth here sir, you only seek to spread propaganda. You have made up your mind and only wish to spread your way of thinking to others.

Sorry dude, the ATS community is smarter than that.

If this is how you feel I am sorry .

I have no reason to "distort"anything on interesting information that Questions "genocide" .

I am not here to make anyone believe me or convince . my objective is to gather as information. If it turnes out that The facts of the military report are not accurate then so be it .. thus far you have not refuted any of the facts presented in the military report all you have done is insutlted me and make outrageous claims that my objective is to mislead the ATS comunity.

You say i am denying historians and scholars ?

Who? You have not given me any links to read or study ?

a reply to: Kapusta

Read my previous post.

I am not here to make anyone believe me or convince . my objective is to gather as information

You are a liar sir/madam.

To all members of the ATS community, please go back and read all my posts. I have flushed out this charlaton, yet he/she refuses to acknowledge it.

originally posted by: SprocketUK
For what it's worth, Turkey wants to join the EU, the EU want them to join, so there is a bit of revisionism going on to paint Turkey in a better light.

The EU has said that regardless of Turkey's admission (or lack thereof) to genocide, it won't affect their application to the EU.

That said, Turjey has said recently that they are not that interested in EU membership any more, owing to the increased islamification of the Turkish state under Erdogan and his increasingly weird announcements and self-aggrandising actions.

As for the OP - there seems to wildly different numbers when referring to this episode in history. Some say 300,000 died, others say 1.5 million and anywhere in between.

Now, genocide is described as a specific policy to wipe out - in whole or in part - any ethnic or religious group and I don't think this was an organised, targeted action.

It was simply the result of the last days of the Ottoman Empire, the societal collapse that came with it, along with increasing nationalist and religious feelings that were occurring globally as well as internally at the time

a reply to: stumason

I recommend you look into the young turks movement during the time. Then look up a dude named Talaat Pasha.

originally posted by: totalperdition
a reply to: Kapusta

Dude I just finished reading the Niles and Sutherland report. Like I said, there is no conclusion in there about a genocide not taking place.

In fact like I pointed out earlier, that was not the intent of the report or the reason they went there.

Here is a link to the report...
Link to Niles and Sutherland report.

Also like I said, they were under Turkish escort. Additionally they only investigated in and near the city of Van.

Bottom line: They were there to asses the situation in 1919 and decide whether or not the US should provide aid.They were not historians, or forensic investigators. They came to no conclusions about whether or not a genocide had taken place and certainly weren't there to do so.

Like I said before, to an outsider, under Turkish escort, with limited exploration of the region, it seems like a civil war.


Yet you ignored all of this.

You used sources that do not backup your claim of "history says no" and said they do.

You seek no truth.
You are not neutral.

Deny Ignorance.

Really does the report say their was a genocide ?


You keep saying "to an outsider" what does this mean .

Please pprovide me with links that i can read ! So i can draw a conclusions

Like i stated before if i am worng then so be it.

If i can say for certain their was a genocide then ill state so.

But i can't at this point conclude a genocide took place .

originally posted by: totalperdition
a reply to: Kapusta

Read my previous post.

I am not here to make anyone believe me or convince . my objective is to gather as information

You are a liar sir/madam.

To all members of the ATS community, please go back and read all my posts. I have flushed out this charlaton, yet he/she refuses to acknowledge it.

Again with the insults . why don't you look up the definition of Genocide .

a reply to: Kapusta

Really does the report say their was a genocide ?

No historians and scholars do.

2nd

a reply to: Kapusta

Sir you deserve to be insulted for you are of the most vile scum this world has to offer.

Even Adolf Hitler acknowledged what was done to the Armenians.

You insult all members of this community and yourself with the OP.

originally posted by: totalperdition
a reply to: Kapusta

Sir you deserve to be insulted for you are of the most vile scum this world has to offer.

Even Adolf Hitler acknowledged what was done to the Armenians.

You insult all members of this community and yourself with the OP.

I have stated that I am aware of the atrocities that happend to the Amenian people and its really sad Its a sad part of history . But I also acknowledge that Muslims were also killed in masses by the Armenians .

But I can't conclude their was a genocide (genocide meaning their was a systimatic plan to kill off armenians) like other members sugested.


I am inclined to believe most of the deaths were a result of the fighting.

I am sure their were incidences where people were lined up and shot . just as Muslims were as well.

Again I am just looking for answers , Now how about you stop with the insults and educate me ?
Maybe i lack the knowlege , maybe I am wrong or have missed something.

This is not a pissing contest .

You say i am insulting the ATS comunity?
Huh ?

Since when did you become a spokes man for everyone as if they all think and agree to you ,

a reply to: Kapusta

I have already provided you with the answers to your questions. As have other members. You could easily go back and read all the post and piece together the information you claim to seek.

I however do not believe you, you are here only to spread your propaganda. You keep making it more and more apparent with your replies and it is especially apparent by your OP.

From MW dictionary :

"The deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group"

This is what it is and was.

Historians and scholars agree, yet you do not seek them out. I'm not going to waste my time seeking them out for you, because in the end you won't accept it.

You have no intention on changing your opinion or belief.

You came here with an agenda. You had your mind made up from the get go and you've made that apparent from the very start. You just don't have the balls to admit it.

You've wasted my time long enough, I'm tired of wasting my 'breath' on a piece of cabbage.


Do svidanya Polskii

originally posted by: totalperdition
a reply to: Kapusta

I have already provided you with the answers to your questions. As have other members. You could easily go back and read all the post and piece together the information you claim to seek.

I however do not believe you, you are here only to spread your propaganda. You keep making it more and more apparent with your replies and it is especially apparent by your OP.

From MW dictionary :

"The deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group"

This is what it is and was.

Historians and scholars agree, yet you do not seek them out. I'm not going to waste my time seeking them out for you, because in the end you won't accept it.

You have no intention on changing your opinion or belief.

You came here with an agenda. You had your mind made up from the get go and you've made that apparent from the very start. You just don't have the balls to admit it.

You've wasted my time long enough, I'm tired of wasting my 'breath' on a piece of cabbage.


Do svidanya Polskii

You gave NOT privided me with counter evedincce to the Military report . you cant prove Turks orderd Genocide .

All you want to do is bark and shout insults.

You have made up some Character that I Am NOT .

I am Open to possibly being wrong .

I have stated such .

You seem to know me better than me .

So at this point i have to assume that no mater what i say you will continue to bark insted of engaging me in an educated dialog about this Topic .

Forgive me If you feel I am this person you painted me to be .

I have been around ats for ten years or so . I honestly can say I have no other ulterior motives other then finding the truth. I am not sure why you keep sugesting that i do !

I am very open to new information and Ill happily review anything you can bring with an unbias opinion.

But it seems like ill just have to continue researching .

Thank you for your efforts


And I am not polish I am American.

I have issued the command — and I'll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad — that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formations in readiness — for the present only in the East — with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (Lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians? -Adolf Hitler

That should speak volumes on whether or not it happened......one of the main reason Hitler moved forward with his plans is because people remained SILENT....despite the fact that it happened....

People in the region knew it happened....Hitler saw how people said nothing......