Was Their Really An Armenian Genocide ? History Says No.

I would like to state that My stance is Neutral with regard to the topic I am just looking for Answers and Truth .


No doubt the Ottoman empire is responsible for atrocious act's committed towards people during their reign ,However In-light of recent 'Armenian Genocide' talk I have decided to do a bit of research and I now Question weather or not their was really a "Genocide" .

I came Across the paper from the Stanford University website witch really has me questioning this whole thing.

The Armenian genocide: The Turkish side of the story.

By the end of WWI, Eastern Anatolia, where the Muslims and Armenians had lived together for a
thousand years, was in ruins and the population had been decimated. After more than 90 years, the
debate on the events of 1915 still continues in the public sphere, including the Stanford campus.
There can be no doubt that the eastern provinces of the Ottoman Empire in 1915 were the scene to
many horrible atrocities against Armenians, which we condemn. The Turkish Republic, founded in
1923 after the fall of the Ottomans, officially expressed its grief numerous times for the events that
happened and for the people that have died and suffered. Still, Turkey is the target of accusations of
denial, indicating that the real issue is something quite different.

The Armenian thesis claims that the events constitute a genocide, that the Ottoman government had an
official (albeit hidden) intent to exterminate the Armenian nation. It makes extensive references to the
Holocaust to create the impression that the Armenian Genocide had similar methods and goals and is
just as indisputable as the Holocaust. This position is historically not correct. Below, we provide
evidence in hope to enable a better assessment of the historical truth.

By the end of the 19th Century, almost all Christian nations of the Ottoman Empire gained their
independence following national uprisings. The Armenian independence movement started somewhat
later than other nations, around the 1880s, mostly because the former were much more integrated into
the Ottoman society and had a privileged position among the non-Muslim populations of the empire.
Still, the main reason why the events did not follow the same course was demographic. Armenians
were dispersed all over Anatolia and Istanbul; they were a minority even in most of Eastern Anatolia.

When WWI began, Armenians formed militias to help the Russian advance into Anatolia. Large-scale
uprisings in different parts of Anatolia, notably in the city of Van, created panic in the rear of the
Turkish army. By February 1915, the local Muslim and Armenian populations in the country were in a
fierce communal conflict. In April, the Ottomans were pulling back from the Eastern front and the
Armenians were in control of certain provinces. At the end of April, the Ottomans gave the first order
for “relocation.” The following months witnessed the plight of Armenians: As they were transported to
Syrian provinces of the empire, they were killed by attacks of local Muslims, gangs, hunger and
epidemics — as well as the difficulties of moving through mountains and deserts of the region. In the
provinces under Armenian control, atrocities of similar scale were taking place, and the Muslim
population fled in huge numbers in order to save their lives.

Prominent historians such as Bernard Lewis and Stanford Shaw maintain that there was no official
policy of genocide. The claim is based on the fact that the comprehensive Ottoman archives contain no
documents suggesting such a plan. The reports of misconduct by soldiers and civil servants almost
always mention them in the context of how such behavior should be and is penalized; we have accounts
of 1,397 officers being punished, creating a striking contrast with the Holocaust. Furthermore, the
relocations began only after the Russian and Armenian armies began to move into Anatolia and were
mostly confined to the region around the line of fighting.

After the Ottomans lost the war, the British High Commission in Istanbul arrested 144 high Ottoman
officials and deported them to Malta for trial on charges of harming the Armenians. While the
deportees were interned on Malta, the British appointed an Armenian scholar, Haig Khazarian, to
conduct a thorough examination of the Ottoman, British and U.S. records to substantiate the charges.
Though granted complete access to all records, Khazarian’s corps of investigators discovered an utter

m. The Armenians were not innocent victims of the
atrocities, but they played a role in starting them. Nor were the Muslims ruthless killers of innocent
children and women. To present the events as a genocide ignores the complex history that led to the
suffering of millions of people, Armenians and Muslims alike, and would only be a disservice to
humanity in preventing future atrocities like this.

American Investigation of Eastern Anatolia

Captain Emory Niles and Mr. Arthur Sutherland were Americans ordered by the United States Government (in 1919) to investigate the situation in eastern Anatolia. Their report was to be used as the basis for granting relief aid to the Armenians by the American Committee for Near East Relief. The following is an excerpt from their report.

LINK

LINK

Was there Really a Genocide ATS ?

You Decide

Kap

a reply to: Kapusta

Genocide is a bit ambiguous imo . If unless you are talking about the Beothuk Natives of Canada . that is a well document of a linguistic group being killed off . en.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Kapusta

Genocide is a bit ambiguous imo . If unless you are talking about the Beothuk Natives of Canada . that is a well document of a linguistic group being killed off . en.wikipedia.org...

No ,I am talking about The Armenian Genocide .

a reply to: Kapusta

Did it really happen ? Obama failed to acknowledge it but he seems to be in denial about other things so it's really hard to say .I haven't heard any confirmation from Harper either . Seems like the loudest voice on the subject is Turkey itself .

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Kapusta

Did it really happen ? Obama failed to acknowledge it but he seems to be in denial about other things so it's really hard to say .I haven't heard any confirmation from Harper either . Seems like the loudest voice on the subject is Turkey itself .

I would have to disagree , I think the Loudest voice are the Armenians ,

Younger Generations looking for recognition
.

Perhaps fueled by years of hand me down story's ,Clearly evidence suggest that their was no Genocide ,thus far .

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Also I am Inclined to believe that Leaders might have a better understanding on the History of the Supposed "Genocide".

And we know by Historical Fact that their was no "ordered Genocide " I think it was the result of Territorial disputes and other factions . The Armenians and Muslims lived peacefully for many many years prior to the conflicts in the late 1800's and early 1900's

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Kapusta

Did it really happen ? Obama failed to acknowledge it but he seems to be in denial about other things so it's really hard to say .I haven't heard any confirmation from Harper either . Seems like the loudest voice on the subject is Turkey itself .

Don't forget that Turkey is a key player for stationed NATO-troops in that area. Of course Obama tred lightly, so to say. He doesn't want to incure diplomatic consequences, as the Turkish are very, very on the tip of their toes right now.

Example: Austrias government said "genocide!" = the Turkish government recalled their ambassador. ABC News Link


My opinion on this is that it is a very delicate problem for the Turkish goverment and Turkish foreign affairs. But there seem to be the prevalent opinions in Turkey that there was no genocide.
If you read/google.translate the article in the Turkish version of wikipedia (Link to Turkish version of the genocide on the armenians, you might get the impression that the word "propaganda" is used quite often.

They seem to be in active denial. I could be wrong, but there are facts - 1.5m killed. Many hundreds of thousands deported. This, and I may say so as a German, looks like the plan to clean Turkey of Armenians. Which is another word for (actual or planed) genocide, in my opinion.

For what it's worth, Turkey wants to join the EU, the EU want them to join, so there is a bit of revisionism going on to paint Turkey in a better light.

I'd say over a million people is a genocide. and then there is the pictures. it was photgraphed you know; including ottoman officials teasing skeleton thin dying armenian children with food with no intention of giving them any. I got one One word for people that side with bad guys and try to sanitize history. but it would get me banned.

www.google.com... bm=isch&sa=X&ei=KQo6Vc6wJ4ThsATLhYDIDQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1498&bih=785

so if there is some vermin here set to spam PR misinformation in advance of the aniversary of the genocide they may consume excrement and thus expire.

peopleus.blogspot.com...

a reply to: SprocketUK

Which country in the EU is taking active steps to include Turkey into the EU?

Even, or should I say -especially- Germany with the greatest number of Turks living inside its borders aside from Turkey itself plays a very slow game of "you might come in SOMEDAY".

Turkish history says there was not a systematic and concerted attempt to reduce the Armenian minority to "nothing" as a policy of the authorities. Most other scholars and historians beg to differ.

a reply to: Kapusta

I have to inform you that my opinion of you sunk very low

Excusing a genocide to protect Obama

That's ugly my friend, that's ugly

a reply to: Kapusta

On the anniversary of the genocide, Turkey decided to celebrate the defeat of the allies in Gallipoli instead, class folks for sure, real EU material.

Genocide is such an ugly word. The Ottoman Empire simply neglected thousands of Armenians to death.

a reply to: ManFromEurope UK, Germany, most of the concil of ministers do.

Nice research. So it seems the initial investigation by post-WWI Americans was that there was no genocide, and if anything, Armenians themselves stand accused of committed atrocities against Muslims. (I reference your inclusion of the report by Captain Emory Niles and Mr. Arthur Sutherland, c 1919.)

S+F from me for cutting to the chase.

originally posted by: MensaIT3
a reply to: Kapusta

I have to inform you that my opinion of you sunk very low

Excusing a genocide to protect Obama

That's ugly my friend, that's ugly

Not sure how you came to the conclusion that i am trying to defend Obama? I can care less about him really. I am not doing this for any political reason . I am just simply look for truth . but you and others on here are trying to tie me to some political agenda . I have presented evidence and opinion with reason . but yet i am some "genocide denying obama supporter "? I have stated my position that I AM and will remain natural on this until I can further find truth. And thus far tthe evidence stands in my favor.

a reply to: Kapusta

Oh please, this is the second time I've seen this so called "Standford University" source. It's a propaganda piece at best. Not even a study conducted by Standford. Rather a paper written by a single so called "member" of Standfords Turkish Student Association, then placed on a Standford University blog and made to look like the Turkish Student Association endorses it.

You don't have to take my word for it

The blogs are hosted by Stanford University's Cross Cultural Rhetoric Project.
The PDF file is hosted on a blog called the Green Hat Blog by the Green Hat Group

Why is the PDF being hosted there? Good question. It's because another member of the Cross Cultural Rhetoric Project has analyzed the paper and wanted to make it available to others.

WHAT WAS THE RESULT OF HER ANALYSIS ?????

Check out this link and see for yourself.

If you don't want to read her entire analysis, then here is her conclusion.

By the way her name is Katrina Li

This article is particularly interesting for our study because it is written and endorsed by patriots of one country in America attempting to convince Stanford students of all ethnicities and backgrounds of the validity of its claim. It is doubly a cross-rhetoric article! The cultural assumptions are that logic should prevail over emotion in historical analysis, that people should care about the resolution of this issue, and that the audience is acquainted with WWII. The author makes several references and allusions to WWII, discussing how the events transpiring between the Armenians and Turks in no way compared to those of the Holocaust. It is clearly written for non-Armenians who are not sure what to believe or who believe that it was a genocide. Because of the slanted insults and disrespect it aims at the Armenians, it is quite clear that it is not an essay to convince Armenians that there was no genocide.

Clearly not an offical Standford University Study of any kind.

Oh and I'm tired of the "It was a civil war argument"

Think about it, if you lived in a contry where your ethnic group was marked for cleansing and being massacred. Where news of such massacres eventually reached your village, town or city. Would you not try to defend yourself, your family, your property? Sure would make it look like a civil war to the uninformed outsider wouldn't it?

Oh by the way, defending themselves was pretty tough cause during the time....

Quote from Wiki:

In addition to other legal limitations, Christians were not considered equals to Muslims: testimony against Muslims by Christians and Jews was inadmissible in courts of law; they were forbidden to carry weapons or ride atop horses; their houses could not overlook those of Muslims; and their religious practices were severely circumscribed (e.g., the ringing of church bells was strictly forbidden).[25] Violation of these statutes could result in punishments ranging from the levying of exorbitant fines to execution

Yup, Gun Control based on ethnic group.

Go enlighten yourself and deny ignorance, disgusting.

originally posted by: Kapusta

No doubt the Ottoman empire is responsible for atrocious act's committed towards people during their reign ,However In-light of recent 'Armenian Genocide' talk I have decided to do a bit of research and I now Question weather or not their was really a "Genocide" .

You can't blame this genocide on what was essentially a game over for the Ottoman Empire. It was perpetrated by an idea of Turkey for the Turkish ethnic Muslims. The Young Turks movement believed in an ethnically pure Turkisk state that would eliminate all its minorities, very similar to the Nazis really. They knew it was game over for the Turkish Emoire and saw weakness in the patchwork quilt of endless minorities, only a totally pure Turkish state was seen as being able to stand up to the Russians and Brits.

a reply to: totalperdition

So your sugesting the facts outlined in the document are incorrect?

How about the us militarys WW1 investigation
Conclusion that their was no Genocide ?

Did you bother to read the facts in the seconed link?

You can quote wiki all day, but wiki is NOT and accurate sorce for information.