Racism in the Bible

a reply to: SuperFrog


Sorry,but I don't hate gays and never have.I even like drag queens and my favorite is the
Lady Chablis.I do get jealous that they walk around in heels better than I can,that's not
fair.
Bottom-line that gets everybody all puffed up and feathers ruffled is gay acceptance and
marriage.If I don't accept these as being normal I am told that I'm filled with hate.

HEY OP,This is the 500th post on your thread!

originally posted by: SuperFrog

originally posted by: DiggerDogg
Anthropomorphism is a common mistake for people who aren't properly schooled in monotheistic religion. Trying to ascribe human characteristics to God isn't really in line with traditional theology. We often have to use "human" terms to describe him because of our limited understanding, and that is acceptable. But to attempting to reduce God to having a "human" essence is very, very wrong.

Does your religious book that you believe in has something like this:

Genesis 1-27
So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

If not God's essence, what essence God created humans in??

originally posted by: DiggerDogg
At least, that is the philosophy behind it. We know of God through our interactions with Him, and this by itself would tend to limit our understanding, because He has to interact with us in a way that is comprehensible to the human mind.

I strongly agree that if God exists, it is 'He', no way that 'She' God would screw up this much by sending so many different messages to his children, have them wage wars, nor 'She' would kill firstborn children, give humans black death, kidney stones and many different diseases... or kill children in millions every year...

But back to serious discussion, interaction on personal level... interesting. What makes you so sure?

Well, if God created us, he gave us our capacity for divinity, and in that way we are like Him. But when I say "human essense", I mean it in the mundane sense. Our essence while we are here on this earth. God is impossible to know fully, and that's why he can't be like us.

And personal interaction is the only way we can know of Him. Someone telling you that he exists is not enough and it never was. You have to know of him yourself.

a reply to: mamabeth

In my opinion it is not acceptance of marriage in spiritual meaning, but in legal meaning. Why would my wife and I have more benefit with our 2 children then gay couple with 4 children they adopted. Not to mention medical insurance and all other benefit marriage brings to us.

I really don't care if is heterosexual, homosexual or poly-sexual relationship, we all should be able to have the same sort of benefit, no mater who we decided to live with.

We live in country where your religious norm should not have effect on how everyone else lives. It is all other mater if you accept and support equal rights to all or not...

originally posted by: DiggerDogg
Well, if God created us, he gave us our capacity for divinity, and in that way we are like Him. But when I say "human essense", I mean it in the mundane sense. Our essence while we are here on this earth. God is impossible to know fully, and that's why he can't be like us.

And personal interaction is the only way we can know of Him. Someone telling you that he exists is not enough and it never was. You have to know of him yourself.

In shorts, you trying to tell us that some of us will never know... something you know... but don't have any evidence for. Sure, I give you that, I might be born, or should I say 'created' that way. Does that mean that God's wish (as you probably believe it is all God's work) was that I have no connection to him?

And what is more interesting, why do you think all mighty god would not make connection more easy to establish, or why wouldn't he give one instead of many 'books' people claim he has sent?! He can't make up his mind??

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: DiggerDogg

Christianity stole concepts from more religions than just Zoroastrianism. Literally every Christian holiday is really a pagan holiday of some sort. Hell is really tartarus from Hellenistic culture. Heck the Jesus account may actually be a retelling of the Torah's story of Joshua.

Though I admit that much of the core tenets of Christianity do come from Zoroastrianism. Good vs Evil. The final battle against good vs evil. God judging the wicked.

Here's a chart that shows the evolutionary progress of all the world's major religions

You know, there's an interesting story relating to Zoroastrianism. During the conquests of the first Islamic Caliphate, Zoroatrians were originally tolerated and even accepted, because they were thought to be worshiping the same God. Unfortunately, they soon came to be demonized as pagans to give the conquest a righteous pretext.

To excuse their killing, the Muslims claimed that Zoroastrians were worshiping fire, when in reality fire was simply a tool they used to approach God.

Just another example of man corrupting religion, born of the free will that God gave us.

a reply to: DiggerDogg

Corrupting religion? No, religion was always corrupt. Any real god wouldn't be petty enough to require an organized belief structure setup in its name where people were forced to worship and acknowledge its existence just because the god created them.

If I create a computer, is it really all that impressive for me to program it to exclaim how awesome I am every time I turn it on?

a reply to: peter vlar

Are you willing to admit the possibility of your god not actually existing?

Not answering for Digger Dogg but only myself.
Yes I am willing to admit the possibility that God does not exist. Every person I have ever talked to about that subject will admit that this Jesus is all theology. Even the biblical Apostles admitted that belief is not necessarily proof. Doubting Thomas is one good example.

One thing that is overlooked by some and that is Jesus is not a fact unless you have faith in that He is a fact and even in that does not make Him a fact to the satisfaction of the contender. The whole of true Christianity is Faith and Faith is not necessarily fact. In a theological discussion it is assumed every one is on the same page. Where the Jesus people make a mistake is in trying to discuss Theology with those who are not discussing but contesting. It has become a game of prove it and presenting another opinion as source as though that source is proof.

The main difference between a "true believer" and an atheist or agnostic is that if the evidence were to present itself, the atheists and agnostics are open minded enough to allow for being wrong and changing their outlook.

A true believer cannot prove a God and neither can an agnostic or atheist disprove a God. I believe in the God of Jesus with no proof and you disbelieve in the God of Jesus with no proof. Is it a rule that I am obligated to produce what you cannot do yourself? Where does that become a rule? I have the same advantage of mind change as you do. I can disbelieve that which I believe the same as you can believe that which you disbelieve. Simply because I choose to believe that Jesus was real does not mean I am wrong and closed minded. That is as though you judge me being wrong by your own belief that you are right. Can I also justly judge you? Would that make you closed minded also?

originally posted by: mamabeth
a reply to: Barcs

1.I am a woman and for the most part women are always right.
2.The real problem here is that gays are getting their shorts twisted into knots
because many people don't accept their lifestyle choices.
3.We live by grace not by the law.
4.People who don't think like you and the op are always treated like they are mentally retarded,
or just plain ignorant and need "educated" by you enlightened ones.
5.Threads like this one get a lot of attention,flags and stars because they always attack
the Bible,christians and anyone who doesn't accept the gay lifestyle as normal.Like I
said earlier,they just keep stirring that old poo pot over and over again.

1. That depends on how hot you are. It's not ALWAYS worth pretending you are right to get laid

2. It seems to me that the Christian opposition to homosexuality is getting far more upset about this. They are the ones claiming that homosexuality is an abomination, or calling them disease ridden, gross etc etc. They have been primarily the people lobbying against gay marriage and speaking out against it, when it does not affect their lives in the least. One could easily say that the real problem is Christians trying to incorporate their unverified claims in the bible into laws that oppress people.

THAT is the REAL problem. People aren't making laws against Christian marriage or claiming their religion is vile and disgusting and that they don't deserve the same rights everyone else has. The worst part of all is that Christians do it based on a complete guess in the dark about an ancient scripture. Once again, god is mysteriously unavailable to answer the question himself and settle it for the world once and for all. Apparently he'd rather watch us kill each other over which religion is right as they have been doing since the dawn of civilization. That behavior doesn't make sense for a benevolent all powerful god. Children are being killed on a weekly if not daily basis over in what is considered the holiest land on earth, and he does nothing. Case in point.

3. Completely faith based statement.

4 & 5. Really? So you are perfectly okay speaking out against homosexuality, but get upset over non believers correcting false claims made by believers or applying critical thinking to the bible? The only time people are treated like they don't know what they are talking about is when they actually do not know what they are talking about (IE all of the anti evolution threads in O&C section, young earth creationism, etc). I try to correct their ignorance without putting them down, but yeah lash out against gays and then play the victim card. LMAO! Poor Christianity has been running the western world for almost 2000 years, and they are finally losing their stranglehold on society and it's a huge problem to you. Religion is dying a slow death, mainly because of their groups that support ignorant positions (not treating everyone equally and blind hatred of science and evolution). Kids today are more knowledgeable than they have ever been. This is a result of the availability of the internet and scientific information being one click away to almost everyone. Religion is disappearing as a result. Sorry about your luck. It may be the "end times" for Christianity, but not the rest of the world. 2000 years and no contact at all from god or Jesus despite folks dying on a daily basis based on different interpretations of the same thing.

Why are you afraid to answer my questions or the questions posed by the OP? We laid it out pretty clearly and you ignored it all. Again, why do you back the anti gay leviticus verse, but ignore the countless others? Is it the word of god or not? Why the cherry picking of which verses you'll support. Funny how so many Christians ignore the tons of other leviticus laws but hold on to the one that puts other people down and shows bigotry. That speaks volumes.

2.Being gay, in my opinion, will always be a lifestyle choice.

And this is where you will always be wrong. It's based on an attraction; an attraction that they are born with. I'm not going to walk down the street and suddenly go, "hmmmmm, I think I'm going to be attracted to the same sex today!" It doesn't work like that. There is no choice involved. Either you are attracted to the same sex or you are not. The only time folks actually have a choice is if they are bisexual. Like KrazySh0t and myself have asked, what if it were the other way around and the bible frowned on heterosexual sex? Could you switch to homosexuality to appease your god, or would you not believe the god is real? Obviously you couldn't switch, because you find it nasty, which proves undisputedly that it is absolutely NOT a choice.

Unless of course you actually DO have homosexual urges. For some reason, it is usually the folks that have these urges who claim it is a lifestyle choice. It's funny how that works, and there was actually a study done about this that showed a correlation between having gay urges and having an anti-gay outlook on life. Folks seem to think it is really the devil tempting them, rather than their own attraction.

I'm just saying it's one thing to disagree with something or not want to participate in it, but it's completely different to actively preach against it and deny them the same rights as the rest of humanity.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Hey Krazysh0t

Is it possible to post an enlarged version of the chart posted or link to it ... as it is very small to read

Cheers

a reply to: artistpoet

Edit: One more time


That seems to be the best I can get... Here's the article its from
rahoorkhuit93.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com...

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Thanks that is better ... interesting



Edit ... yes will go to link and enlarge on my screen ... thanks

originally posted by: Seede

Not answering for Digger Dogg but only myself.
Yes I am willing to admit the possibility that God does not exist. Every person I have ever talked to about that subject will admit that this Jesus is all theology. Even the biblical Apostles admitted that belief is not necessarily proof. Doubting Thomas is one good example.

Huge difference between understanding the theological notions of Christianity and being able to admit that the god of Abraham is not real though. While every person you've ever discussed the subject with may be inclined to admit that it's all theology, that doesn't mean they are willing to accept evidence that their faith is based on a bronze age fairy tale if that were to turn out to be the case. I'm not taking a dump on your faith, that is just one example. My experience is very different in that I've never spoken to a single Christian who was willing to accept the possibility of their god not being real.

One thing that is overlooked by some and that is Jesus is not a fact unless you have faith in that He is a fact and even in that does not make Him a fact to the satisfaction of the contender.

It doesn't make it a fact period, it means the entire premise is built upon faith that was, in most cases, the product of where and how one grew up. It's more about tradition in a lot of instances than it is about reality.

The whole of true Christianity is Faith and Faith is not necessarily fact.

You are in the minority here by expressing the viewpoint that the religion is entirely based on faith and that faith isn't a fact. Facts are supported by evidence but that's a topic for a different thread. This one is about the inherent culture of racism that permeates the bible and how followers of the faith hide behind scripture in raging bouts of hypocrisy by ignoring the message of Christ while expressing bigotry towards others because they have been taught that it's OK because the bible says so.

In a theological discussion it is assumed every one is on the same page. Where the Jesus people make a mistake is in trying to discuss Theology with those who are not discussing but contesting. It has become a game of prove it and presenting another opinion as source as though that source is proof.

I think where you are making a mistake is in the assumption that those who do not believe in the divinity of Jesus are unwilling, incapable or simply not having a discussion when talking about the subject matter at hand. The vast majority of people I know who disagree with theological perspectives of the world are still open minded enough to look at both sides of the issue and admit if they are wrong.

A true believer cannot prove a God and neither can an agnostic or atheist disprove a God. I believe in the God of Jesus with no proof and you disbelieve in the God of Jesus with no proof.

No, I don't believe in the Abrahamic deity because there is no proof, not with no proof. Huge difference.

Is it a rule that I am obligated to produce what you cannot do yourself? Where does that become a rule?

I think you are obfuscating the issue here. I can not prove a negative. I deal in facts and evidence using the scientific method. If there were evidence indicating I was incorrect in my previous observations and examinations of the data then I would admit such. As yet, that just isn't the case. I'm not placing a burden upon you or any others of similar faith that I am unwilling to take up myself.

I have the same advantage of mind change as you do. I can disbelieve that which I believe the same as you can believe that which you disbelieve.

Not if I am basing my view on facts instead of faith I can not disbelieve something.

Simply because I choose to believe that Jesus was real does not mean I am wrong and closed minded.

It doesn't mean you are correct or open minded either if you aren't willing to address a lack of evidence and choose to maintain a faith based tradition. That's your choice and contrary to your next statement, I'm not judging you for that. Im simply pointing out facts.

That is as though you judge me being wrong by your own belief that you are right.

Not at all. What I will say though is that this is coming off as a typical Christian apologist playing the victim card when I've attacked nobody. Merely asking questions and pointing out my own side of things is apparently judgmental now.

Can I also justly judge you? Would that make you closed minded also?

Judge away. I'm more than used to it. Especially on ATS! I don't see how that would make me closed minded though when the gist of the post you responded to involved me discussing the fact that I am more than willing to admit I was wrong if the evidence presents itself. I simply follow the data, where it leads me is irrelevant as long as it can be supported. If the data is true and the evidence supports it then there isn't anything to argue about is there? That's hardly closed minded.

a reply to: Barcs

I have never said that homosexuality was nasty,that was someone else!
Please use posts that I have personally written to "correct" me with.

originally posted by: mamabeth
a reply to: Barcs

I have never said that homosexuality was nasty,that was someone else!
Please use posts that I have personally written to "correct" me with.

Right. Your original posts weren't about homosexuality being nasty, but were instead straight up Islamophobia. So you are technically right in that you weren't hating on homosexuals, but you were hating on someone.

originally posted by: mamabeth
a reply to: Barcs

I have never said that homosexuality was nasty,that was someone else!
Please use posts that I have personally written to "correct" me with.

So nothing to say about the other Leviticus verses? No answers to any of my questions? I guess if you don't like the truth, just bury your head in the sand and pretend that the views are justified. Am I wrong in saying that your justification for denying homosexuals equal marriage rights is based on the verse in Leviticus or are you deliberately distracting folks from the topic?

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Ahhh,busted! My all time favorite word in this entire world...islamophobia.
In my case and others it is not an unnatural fear.

a reply to: mamabeth

Sure it is. Ever since September 11, 2001 we've been inundated with anti-Islam propaganda day in and day out from the media. not to mention the calling of the war in Iraq "a modern crusade" (ties in nicely with my thread now).

"Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” – Yoda

Since gay marriage is in conflict with traditional faith based churches.
I suggest that the gay community form their own churches.Have their
own bakeries and catering services and leave the faith based churches
and businesses alone.I am sure the gay community would be protected
from discrimination lawsuits.
I know that filing lawsuits against faith based businesses is very profitable
for the gay couples and their lawyers.Funny,that different faiths that
have special dietary requirements have their own businesses.The muslims
have their halal butchers,stores and restaurants.Jews have their kosher
businesses and stores as well.
Trying to force others into accepting you or your lifestyle never works.
What is happening is the fact that the gay community is forcing people of faith
to choose between serving the Lord or serving them.I was a floral designer
and an event planner.If a gay couple had come to me to plan their wedding,
I would have to refuse,based solely on my faith.
Maybe instead of being so gung ho in putting christian businesses out of
business.Just order the cake and flowers and put the same sex toppers on
yourself.The christian business don't have to know the services they are
providing is for a same sex wedding.Everybody is happy and no lawsuits are
filed.
But I know that makes too much sense and is not very profitable as lawsuits.

originally posted by: mamabeth
Funny,that different faiths that
have special dietary requirements have their own businesses.The muslims
have their halal butchers,stores and restaurants.Jews have their kosher
businesses and stores as well.

Will ignore rest of nonsense, but this just yells - WRONG... no good comparison.
It is not issue of specific foods like in your example, but the same would happen if business would decide to deny someone because they are Muslims for example, to make a cake. Don't you think so??

originally posted by: mamabeth
Trying to force others into accepting you or your lifestyle never works.
What is happening is the fact that the gay community is forcing people of faith
to choose between serving the Lord or serving them.I was a floral designer
and an event planner.If a gay couple had come to me to plan their wedding,
I would have to refuse,based solely on my faith.

Didn't we establish that science points it is not LIFE STYLE, as you portrait it. Just repeating something that is not truth will not make it into truth.
Secondly, the same Lord gives you good instructions for slaves - and you are not allowed to have them?! Imagine that, something 'holy' book allows and today morality does not?! Who is right?!

a reply to: SuperFrog

My post makes sense to me.I don't force my sexual lifestyle down your throat.
I will never allow you and others' to force theirs down mine!
Today's morality has gone down the toilet along with the rest of society.I am
a 60 year old grandma and I am set in my ways.I was taught right from wrong
while we still had a society with some decency and morals.
In the past 50 years or more,our society has seen an increase in males becoming
more feminine and emasculated.Sexual appetites start with a thought and that
thought carries out into action.Sex starts in your brain and works it's way down.
In my opinion,gays and lesbians have their brains wired differently from straight
people.That still doesn't give them the right to force me to accept it.If you don't
happen to like me pass me by.A song from the past.Maybe we should listen to it
and apply it to our lives.
If you don't like me move along with your life and leave mine alone.

originally posted by: mamabeth
Since gay marriage is in conflict with traditional faith based churches.
I suggest that the gay community form their own churches.Have their
own bakeries and catering services and leave the faith based churches
and businesses alone.I am sure the gay community would be protected
from discrimination lawsuits.

First off, there are already gay friendly churches. As for bakeries and catering services. That is the separate but equal argument and it doesn't work out in practice. Bakeries and catering services need to be inclusive to all people regardless of sexual orientation.

I know that filing lawsuits against faith based businesses is very profitable
for the gay couples and their lawyers.Funny,that different faiths that
have special dietary requirements have their own businesses.The muslims
have their halal butchers,stores and restaurants.Jews have their kosher
businesses and stores as well.

"Faith based businesses" didn't even exist as a legal entity until the Hobby Lobby case. But you are giving a FINE example of what I'm talking about in my OP. Hiding behind religion to spread intolerance.

Trying to force others into accepting you or your lifestyle never works.
What is happening is the fact that the gay community is forcing people of faith
to choose between serving the Lord or serving them.I was a floral designer
and an event planner.If a gay couple had come to me to plan their wedding,
I would have to refuse,based solely on my faith.

Funnily enough, trying to keep gays from getting married IS forcing your lifestyle onto others.

Maybe instead of being so gung ho in putting christian businesses out of
business.Just order the cake and flowers and put the same sex toppers on
yourself.The christian business don't have to know the services they are
providing is for a same sex wedding.Everybody is happy and no lawsuits are
filed.
But I know that makes too much sense and is not very profitable as lawsuits.

Maybe the businesses should just get over themselves and do what their clients ask of them like normally.