Misunderstood Sleep Paralysis And Astral Projection

a reply to: In4ormant

I can reconcile it by the exchange of information between two or more participants within "my" reality, and the fact that such exchanges can be observed and confirmed by others.

That says nothing about reality. That may validate a belief, but it does not make it a valid reality. Even in a dream, one can interact and collaborate with other participants who seemingly are aware of the same thing. The fact that the exchanges can be observed and confirmed in others caught in the same experience, says nothing about the validity of the reality they're experiencing.

The five sense perceptions you use to validate ( or reconcile) your reality in the waking life, are the same sensory perceptions that are the basis of the assumptions that occurring dreams are real. If it were not for hindsight, you would not be able to tell the difference between the two.

So the burden of proof lies with you to show how your five sense perceptions (that which you use to observe your thought, body and external environment) is an authority on such matters when those very senses are just as equally, the basis of your nightly dreams and your belief that, for the time being, they are real.

All I'm asking is for two of these people to do the same within this astral reality they say exists. I'm not requiring any more burden than I am willing to provide.

You can not give me any information to explain and/or validate this waking reality not even your own existence, so let's slow down a bit. Scientists have not found proof of physical reality. Physical concepts perhaps, but no physical reality to anything. In fact, they know it does not exist outside of concept. So you can't claim to have any proof up your sleeve of anything whatsoever outside of the commonality of the experience we all share together. Which, again, does not necessarily substantiate the truth to the claim.

So you're asking for that which you yourself can't provide. To substantiate the validity of an experience to others outside of the experience.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

You might be right if this argument wasn't founded on the circular assumption that you are something other than your body.

On the contrary, the assumption is yours and unfortunately the assumption most people take without even considering their own language, let alone the logic of defining yourself in terms of your body. Even in your own sentence you prove the mental fallacy and paradox of equating One's Self to THEIR bodies.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Visitor2012

Again, you're identifying yourself with that which belongs to you. Otherwise, why say 'my body' if the body is the totality of you? The same applies with 'your mind', 'your spirit'....very few consider who then is the one YOUR refers to. So by assuming that your essential and core self is the same as that which belongs to you, the instrument of the mind/body itself, you make the classic assumption that your body going to sleep is the same as YOU going to sleep. This is a falsity.

Being physically asleep is not the same as YOU being asleep. Or no longer being consciously aware. This isn't advanced knowledge here. When you're body goes to sleep at night and a dream occurs, you are the one watching it, and perceiving it. Who else is doing that? According to your argument, this dream could never be witnessed.

And you're identifying yourself with nothing at all. Peel away the body until we arrive at "you", what would be left?

Actually it is not an assumption to say I am a body, as all evidence shows this. It is an assumption and a fallacy (homunculus fallacy) to say otherwise, especially when based on nothing but specious reasoning.

Ever wonder how they come up with this stuff?

"I'm more than my body and its functions"
---Ok, then why can't we capture this " thing" you are after the body dies?

"Because it isn't physical and can't be contained"

---OK, then how is it contained withing the body?

"I can leave my body at will and travel to this amazing place"

---OK, then jump right out and come by my house. Tell me what I'm wearing

"I'm entering a higher level of consciousness and visiting another dimension"

---OK, you bring back any information or insight from this place or is it just a really pretty place with no discernable purpose?

It's ring around the rosey everytime with these guys. One even basically said "how can anybody know if anything is real?" Therefore if you can't tell a dream from reality, maybe we're all astral projecting right now. This sounds like the religofundies.

If no one cares to guess what color my undies are, then they're all just a bunch of posers.



a reply to: In4ormant

originally posted by: Visitor2012
a reply to: In4ormant

I can reconcile it by the exchange of information between two or more participants within "my" reality, and the fact that such exchanges can be observed and confirmed by others.

That says nothing about reality. That may validate a belief, but it does not make it a valid reality. Even in a dream, one can interact and collaborate with other participants who seemingly are aware of the same thing. The fact that the exchanges can be observed and confirmed in others caught in the same experience, says nothing about the validity of the reality they're experiencing.

The five sense perceptions you use to validate ( or reconcile) your reality in the waking life, are the same sensory perceptions that are the basis of the assumptions that occurring dreams are real. If it were not for hindsight, you would not be able to tell the difference between the two.

So the burden of proof lies with you to show how your five sense perceptions (that which you use to observe your thought, body and external environment) is an authority on such matters when those very senses are just as equally, the basis of your nightly dreams and your belief that, for the time being, they are real.

All I'm asking is for two of these people to do the same within this astral reality they say exists. I'm not requiring any more burden than I am willing to provide.

You can not give me any information to explain and/or validate this waking reality not even your own existence, so let's slow down a bit. Scientists have not found proof of physical reality. Physical concepts perhaps, but no physical reality to anything. In fact, they know it does not exist outside of concept. So you can't claim to have any proof up your sleeve of anything whatsoever outside of the commonality of the experience we all share together. Which, again, does not necessarily substantiate the truth to the claim.

So you're asking for that which you yourself can't provide. To substantiate the validity of an experience to others outside of the experience.

Since we are going into the nature of reality argument here let me clarify for you. NO, I can't prove my reality exists anymore than you can yours. What I can do is devise a way to test my beliefs that others can then observe and can reproduce on their own that will produce similar results and show a common experience. I'm asking 2 people who state they share a common experience within this astral reality to share information and let us observe the results. You continue to spout new age nonsense because you know it can't be done.

originally posted by: Visitor2012
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

You might be right if this argument wasn't founded on the circular assumption that you are something other than your body.

On the contrary, the assumption is yours and unfortunately the assumption most people take without even considering their own language, let alone the logic of defining yourself in terms of your body. Even in your own sentence you prove the mental fallacy and paradox of equating One's Self to THEIR bodies.

So what is the benefit of astral projecting? Can you steal soviet secrets? Can you guess the lottery numbers? Can you guess whats gonna happen tomorrow? Or is it just a fun place to be?

a reply to: In4ormant

Can we just get 1 question and answer exchange between two of these people while their bodies are under lab conditions. Then we can stop all the tossing around of theories and conjecture and circular arguments regarding self and quantum mechanics and the nature of reality? When are all you proclaimers gonna put up or shut up?

I believe that's my line. Are you armchair skeptics going to put up or shut up? When are the armchair skeptics going to get off their behinds and do some work for a change?

You have to take responsibility for your own knowledge, and not wait for it to be spoon fed or delivered on a silver platter. All nice, ironed and dressed up for your inspection and easy understanding. Even when you currently don't understand the reality your experiencing now!

If you were actually curious about this, beyond just your casual interest with ridiculing something you know nothing about, the easier thing to do instead would be to try it yourself. As you put it, "Then we can stop all the tossing around of theories and conjecture and circular arguments regarding self and quantum mechanics and the nature of reality". Amen to that.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Pfft. It's useless talking with pseudo-skeptics like you who have the nerve to call themselves skeptics. They let debunkers do their thinking for them, while ignoring the massive body of parapsychological evidence that has accumulated for over a century. Hypocrites, all of them.

That's why about 90 scientists and academics have co-signed a letter published in Frontiers in Human Neuroscience, that calls for more mainstream support of parapsychology. The letter stresses six points:

1. Research on parapsychological phenomena (psi) is being carried out in various accredited universities and research centers throughout the world by academics in different disciplines trained in the scientific method (e.g., circa 80 Ph.D.s have been awarded in psi-related topics in the UK in recent years). This research has continued for over a century despite the taboo against investigating the topic, almost complete lack of funding, and professional and personal attacks. The Parapsychological Association has been an affiliate of the AAAS since 1969, and more than 20 Nobel prizewinners and many other eminent scientists have supported the study of psi or even conducted research themselves.

2. Despite a negative attitude by some editors and reviewers, results supporting the validity of psi phenomena continue to be published in peer-reviewed, academic journals in relevant fields, from psychology to neuroscience to physics.

3. Increased experimental controls have not eliminated or even decreased significant support for the existence of psi phenomena, as suggested by various recent meta-analyses.

4. These meta-analyses and other studies suggest that data supportive of psi phenomena cannot reasonably be accounted for by chance or by a “file drawer” effect. Indeed, contrary to most disciplines, parapsychology journals have for decades encouraged publication of null results and of papers critical of a psi explanation. A psi trial registry has been established to improve research practice.

5. The effect sizes reported in most meta-analyses are relatively small and the phenomena cannot be produced on demand, but this also characterizes various phenomena found in other disciplines that focus on complex human behavior and performance such as psychology and medicine.

6. Although more conclusive explanations for psi phenomena await further theoretical and research development, they do not prima facie violate known laws of nature given modern theories in physics that transcend classical restrictions of time and space, combined with growing evidence for quantum effects in biological systems.

You can view the full letter, and list of co-signers, here:

A CALL FOR AN OPEN, INFORMED STUDY OF ALL ASPECTS OF CONSCIOUSNESS

👣

originally posted by: Visitor2012
a reply to: In4ormant

Can we just get 1 question and answer exchange between two of these people while their bodies are under lab conditions. Then we can stop all the tossing around of theories and conjecture and circular arguments regarding self and quantum mechanics and the nature of reality? When are all you proclaimers gonna put up or shut up?

Actually, that's my line. Are you armchair skeptics going to put up or shut up?

You have to take responsibility for your own knowledge, and not wait for it to be spoon fed or delivered on a silver platter. All nice, ironed and dressed up for your inspection and easy understanding. Even when you currently don't understand the reality your experiencing now!

If you were actually curious about this, beyond just your casual interest with ridiculing something you know nothing about, the easier thing to do instead would be to try it yourself. As you put it, "Then we can stop all the tossing around of theories and conjecture and circular arguments regarding self and quantum mechanics and the nature of reality". Amen to that.

We are not the ones making fantastic claims about abilities that i don't believe in. You want me to prove it to myself that i can astral project? Why don't you prove to yourself that you can ride a unicorn. I mean, just go do it. And then you'll know that you can.

Why don't you guys have any better arguments than these?

originally posted by: Visitor2012
a reply to: In4ormant

Can we just get 1 question and answer exchange between two of these people while their bodies are under lab conditions. Then we can stop all the tossing around of theories and conjecture and circular arguments regarding self and quantum mechanics and the nature of reality? When are all you proclaimers gonna put up or shut up?

Actually, that's my line. Are you armchair skeptics going to put up or shut up?

You have to take responsibility for your own knowledge, and not wait for it to be spoon fed or delivered on a silver platter. All nice, ironed and dressed up for your inspection and easy understanding. Even when you currently don't understand the reality your experiencing now!

If you were actually curious about this, beyond just your casual interest with ridiculing something you know nothing about, the easier thing to do instead would be to try it yourself. As you put it, "Then we can stop all the tossing around of theories and conjecture and circular arguments regarding self and quantum mechanics and the nature of reality". Amen to that.

I'm not the one claiming, so the burden of proof falls on you. You want me to try it? Sure thing. You get me up to speed and you and I both will take my little test and prove it to the world together and then we can all share it together. I'd much prefer enlightening the world and being able to all meet up on a Tuesday night to chit chat with humanity in this astral whatever than giving myself arthritis constantly refuting these absurd claims.

originally posted by: BlueMule
a reply to: Woodcarver

Pfft. It's useless talking with pseudo-skeptics like you who have the nerve to call themselves skeptics. They let debunkers do their thinking for them, while ignoring the massive body of parapsychological evidence that has accumulated for over a century. Hypocrites, all of them.

That's why about 90 scientists and academics have co-signed a letter published in Frontiers in Human Neuroscience, that calls for more mainstream support of parapsychology. The letter stresses six points:

1. Research on parapsychological phenomena (psi) is being carried out in various accredited universities and research centers throughout the world by academics in different disciplines trained in the scientific method (e.g., circa 80 Ph.D.s have been awarded in psi-related topics in the UK in recent years). This research has continued for over a century despite the taboo against investigating the topic, almost complete lack of funding, and professional and personal attacks. The Parapsychological Association has been an affiliate of the AAAS since 1969, and more than 20 Nobel prizewinners and many other eminent scientists have supported the study of psi or even conducted research themselves.

2. Despite a negative attitude by some editors and reviewers, results supporting the validity of psi phenomena continue to be published in peer-reviewed, academic journals in relevant fields, from psychology to neuroscience to physics.

3. Increased experimental controls have not eliminated or even decreased significant support for the existence of psi phenomena, as suggested by various recent meta-analyses.

4. These meta-analyses and other studies suggest that data supportive of psi phenomena cannot reasonably be accounted for by chance or by a “file drawer” effect. Indeed, contrary to most disciplines, parapsychology journals have for decades encouraged publication of null results and of papers critical of a psi explanation. A psi trial registry has been established to improve research practice.

5. The effect sizes reported in most meta-analyses are relatively small and the phenomena cannot be produced on demand, but this also characterizes various phenomena found in other disciplines that focus on complex human behavior and performance such as psychology and medicine.

6. Although more conclusive explanations for psi phenomena await further theoretical and research development, they do not prima facie violate known laws of nature given modern theories in physics that transcend classical restrictions of time and space, combined with growing evidence for quantum effects in biological systems.

You can view the full letter, and list of co-signers, here:

A CALL FOR AN OPEN, INFORMED STUDY OF ALL ASPECTS OF CONSCIOUSNESS

👣

They could only get 90 accredited scientists in the entire world to sign this?

And you think that is some kind of proof?

I can find more than 90 accredited scientists on this site to say that it's bullshot.

a reply to: Woodcarver

So what is the benefit of astral projecting?

What's the benefit of life?

If you can quantify an answer to that, then just apply it to the astral realm and remove the physical limitations of time/space.

originally posted by: Visitor2012
a reply to: Woodcarver

istral projecting?

What's the benefit of life?

If you can quantify an answer to that, then just apply it to the astral realm and remove the physical limitations of time/space.

'm not asking what is the benefit of life. I'm asking a simple question. What can you do in the astral plane? It's these kinds of details that will settle this discussion. We'll determine what your claims are exactly and then we will test these claims.

originally posted by: Visitor2012
a reply to: Woodcarver

So what is the benefit of astral projecting?

What's the benefit of life?

If you can quantify an answer to that, then just apply it to the astral realm and remove the physical limitations of time/space.

Again with the esoteric nonsense. You gonna teach me and change the world with me or are we gonna sit here in this circle jerk of speculation?

originally posted by: Woodcarver

I can find more than 90 accredited scientists on this site to say that it's bullshot.

Sorry, but Argumentum ad populum is a fallacy.

Try reading the parapsychology textbook, then maybe you can start following the evidence instead of debunkers.

👣

originally posted by: BlueMule

originally posted by: Woodcarver

I can find more than 90 accredited scientists on this site to say that it's bullshot.

Sorry, but Argumentum ad populum is a fallacy.

Try reading the parapsychology textbook, then maybe you can start following the evidence instead of debunkers.

👣

Which is exactly what i just pointed out to him with my comment that i could find just as many people. Derp.

Come on, let's hear some claims mule. What can you do in the astral plain?

a reply to: BlueMule

It's crazy that you guys and the bible thumpers both use the same poor debate tactics. But this should be better because you guys are actually making claims that we can test right?

...........right?

a reply to: BlueMule

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: BlueMule

originally posted by: Woodcarver

I can find more than 90 accredited scientists on this site to say that it's bullshot.

Sorry, but Argumentum ad populum is a fallacy.

Try reading the parapsychology textbook, then maybe you can start following the evidence instead of debunkers.

👣

Which is exactly what i just pointed out to him with my comment that i could find just as many people. Derp.

Don't hold him to the same standards he holds you to, that would dismantle this whole thing

a reply to: Woodcarver

You made it a numbers game, I made it about representing dissenting opinions of scientists who have legitimate grievances. I notice you avoid the meat and potatoes of the letter, and you probably will never read the textbook. Willful ignorance is the only reason there are pseudo-skeptics like you.

👣