Why do people belive in Creationism, how could they think that?

Originally posted by Nygdan
No no, perhaps I haven't stated my position here clearly. Shmick is saying that science is somehow invalid becuase there is a differnce of opinions within it, or even that 'true' science doesn't have a difference of opinion amoung it. This, of course, is not the case. Sceince, when operating well, will have lots of people disgareeing and studying lots of different things. Science operates by trying to disprove old ideas, in a sense.

The disagreement comes from different interpretations of the data though right? They're looking at the same thing but have different viewpoints, opinions, which is a belief formed by deductions the facts. Also wanted to add that the operation of science includes verifying old ideas in a lot of ways too.

Originally posted by Nygdan
They disagree, but atheists aren't trying to 'convert' everyone by not beleiving in god.

Hm, are you sure? This entire forum, 'Conspiracies in Religion', contains a high number of threads where a lot of atheists launch an unprovoked attack of God-bashing and attempts to punch-up Christianity. Seems to be pretty aggressive tactics for not trying to convert people. I'm not saying they're trying to convert Christians, but there are lots of other folks who can hear the noise. Why are they doing this if they don't believe in God? I don't know. It's not because they're upset at God since they don't believe in them. To prevent more Christians? What's the beef with Christians?

I do want to commend your posts because you're very specific on the items you refute. I haven't seen clusterbombs of generalizations and unsubstantiated claims/reasoning in them.

hmmmm is the topic of this not why do people believe in creationism? i think it's started to go off the intended point of this thread

I think we are wired to try and find a higher power.A vital part of evolution, the price we pay for our big brains is awarness of our own death.

Think about it,no animal or other form of life on this planet has to contimplate its own death,we do. A heavy price but a fair one . Religon ? Notice how all Religons try to comfort that blow, we die. Its like a pre-mourning of our own death.Fact is some people need religon to stop them from going mad and it works for them.

As for creationism, nope natural selection.All evolution is is the arranging the 92 naturally occuring elements in the universe in ever more complex ways.No two things in the universe are the same everything is unique.6000 years is just too short a time for the universe to have reached it present state .

But and its a Big but, every heard of the goldie locks theory ? The weigt/mass of a neutron is one example shift it by .00000000000000000000001 the universe as we know it would not form, no stars nothing . There are about 20 or so of these "Convinent values" if any are changed slightly the universe and life becoming impossible.Its almost the universe is programed to strive for complexity .

Mabye natural selection is the hand of god(source,creator, higher being) and
Genisis is still going on at every birth of a new life, of every new sun,galaxy.Its all natural selection and the strive for every more complex forms.Evolution.

Merkz out..

We aren't the only species that understands death. A lot of forms of higher intelligence mourn for their dead and thus probably understand what death is and that it is inevitable. I would say that a lot of primates and aquatic mammals understand.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Nygdan
No no, perhaps I haven't stated my position here clearly. Shmick is saying that science is somehow invalid becuase there is a differnce of opinions within it, or even that 'true' science doesn't have a difference of opinion amoung it. This, of course, is not the case. Sceince, when operating well, will have lots of people disgareeing and studying lots of different things. Science operates by trying to disprove old ideas, in a sense.

The disagreement comes from different interpretations of the data though right? They're looking at the same thing but have different viewpoints, opinions, which is a belief formed by deductions the facts. Also wanted to add that the operation of science includes verifying old ideas in a lot of ways too.

Originally posted by Nygdan
They disagree, but atheists aren't trying to 'convert' everyone by not beleiving in god.

Hm, are you sure?

Well, I'll agree that there are whackos in every group, atheists included, but what I was saying in the above was that atheists, at least when they are voicing their opijnion on the subject or expalinging their position, aren't trying to convert people, and they shouldn't have to not speak up about it. Think about it, to the atheist, god doesn't exist. Consider the way you or someone else might think about people in a false cult that controls them and whatnot. Lots of atheists feel this way about any religion and want to 'help' people. But like I had said, they're not, generally, trying to convert people merely because they are confidently stating their positions, anymore than many christians and other religionists are trying to convert anyone in doing the same.

I do want to commend your posts because you're very specific on the items you refute. I haven't seen clusterbombs of generalizations and unsubstantiated claims/reasoning in them.

And I would add that, while its obvious we disagree on several issues across the board (get it, across the board!) its good that we are capable of having a civil converstion.

merkeva
But and its a Big but, every heard of the goldie locks theory ?

I've heard it refered to as the 'fine tuning' arguement or the 'anthropic principle'. I think its a bit of a fallacy, which is illustrated by the more extreme version of it where the proponent states that, not only is the universe 'fine tuned' so as to guarantee that life exists, but its so fine tuned, and the evolutionary history was so constrained, that, since if any one of billions of stages had been slightly different there wouldn't be humans, that the universe is predetermined to result in man. And, i think that there is also somethign called the 'strong anthropic principle', which is saying that, on top of all that, if very few things had changed, a guy wouldn't be posting to this forum under the name Merkeva, therefore the universe is of such a type as to produce posters named merkeva. I think that the fine tuning argument is similar to 'Panglossian' (from Candid)reasoning. IE 'this is the best of all possible worlds, because only the best worlds could exist' or some such.

IOW, if the factors in the 'fine tuning arguement' were different, then things would be different. Its almost not saying much.

For instance, how can science explain demon possession?

Er? Psychological disorders can account for bizzare behaviour.

Really? And does this explain objects flying around a room, claw marks magically appearing around a persons neck, the ability to speak in non learned languages?

How can science explain the supernatural acts of the witch doctors in Vanuatu?

What supernatural acts have vanuatu witch doctors performed in a scientific lab?

So, you are saying, for science to be able to 'scientifically' explain anything it must be in a lab? This is a terrible argument. We had better get rid of all scientists that don't work in labs then as their research is mute.

quote: How can science explain evolutions failure in man and their incessant need for belief in a 'God'.

I have no idea as to what you mean by 'failure'. Man's need for supernatural explanations are explainable as psychological and neurological functions. These aren't complete unknowns that pyschiatrists and scientists have no anwers for. And what is religions explanation for any of these things? That god or the devil did it?

Of course some scientists will have an answer, because they have an answer for everything. A guesstimate, even an educated guesstimate, however, is not a legitimate answer when it comes to science as guesstimates involve faith.

quote: How many scientists have given different versions of the effects of Global Warming? Why can't they unit on opinions?

Apparently you don't understand what 'science' is.

It was a broad statement by myself, and I apologise for any confusion. I appreciate that science has developed enormously in the last 100 - 200 years. And as I keep hearing from scientists on these threads, science is always in a process of evolvement, of finding new information.

Medicine, is perhaps a good analogy.
- Egyptians 1900-1500 BC believed that disease was caused by spiritual beings.
- The Greeks at about 1200 BC tried to explain illnesses through natural explanations i.e. injured soldiers were treated by doctors - still many believed in their Gods for healing.
- The Romans were great believers in Public health i.e bad health could be caused by bad water and sewage, thus their advances in septic and water systems (baths).
- Middle Ages - 14th Century the University of Montpelier studied human bodies, however medical beliefs were steeped in superstition established by the RCC. There were some advances in the Diagnosis of many diseases.
- etc etc up to present day.

In light of new information some of the ancient techniques are primitive and obviously flawed, but in the day, they were taken as the truth. So indeed, it wasn't the truth but an ignorant claim.

In some areas of science i.e. evolution, this model has remained the same. A belief in what you know as 'truth'.

Here is an interesting case study for you. A doctor in Australia has been practicing �questionable� treatment for cancer for the last 30 or so years with amazing results.

aca.ninemsn.com.au...

Hundreds and hundreds of patients have testified to how this man has helped to cure them from their cancer when they have been told by other doctors they would be dead in a matter of time with no chance of cure. When this show got aired on television, there was a MASSIVE response by viewers demanding to know why this doctor�s techniques have not been used by mainstream medicine. The response by the Medical Research Council was that �microwave therapy has no scientific basis for the treatment of cancer�. Tell that to the hundreds and thousands of people that die each year from cancer! I wonder if you were dying from this same disease, would you be looking for �un-scientific� methods of treatment?

Why can't the religionists 'unite' on opinion? Does disagreement between baptists and hindus mean that religion is wrong?

I never argued that this model didn't carry across to religions, and it does. Most people do not live their lives wishing to believe in lies but nevertheless they do. We all believe we have the truth as best as we understand it, otherwise we would not be having these arguments.

but that is a far call from being a creator.

So? What does that matter? Because scientists aren't all powerful gods then people must accept your religion? Or they must abandon scientific inquiry?

I didn't say that they needed to. You have to be able to pull something apart before you can put it back together again.

The topic of this thread is 'why do people believe in Creationism'. I am trying to give you an answer. The origins of life are a mystery. The complex design of earth is too unique and perfect for 'chance' to have created it. Billions of people across the world reject the hypothetical theories that scientists use to explain our existence, in preference to their belief in an all powerful being. Whose religion is correct? Well that is another debate.

Originally posted by shmick25

Really? And does this explain objects flying around a room, claw marks magically appearing around a persons neck, the ability to speak in non learned languages?

Forgive my ignorance here but....what? Are you claiming that objects fly around rooms and claw marks magically appear on folks, or am I misunderstanding your meaning?

You know the world would be so much more peaceful if all the people whom believe in a deity and creation believed that a deity created the universe, thats it end of story, no divine intervention, no christ child. Unfortunately we cant, though in the next few hundred years (if were not destroyed) religion will be nearly gone.
Have these supposed claw marks been seen by coherent other peole when they magicaly apear, I could pretend to be possed and babble on in an unheard language for hours, languages arent that difficult to create,
also If you lived in ancient greece and you wnet to a temple made a sacrifice and the doors to said temple magicaly opened and a trumpet magicaly played without a person doing either the door opening or the trumpet playing youd associate this as a miracle or divine will, and if someone tryed to argue that your religion is wrong youd use that as an example, in truth it would not have been divine interaction but a machine that activates when the sacrifice is burned, fueled by said sacrifice.
I can give a rational scientific probably boring sounding explanation to any supposed divinaical event,
Lastly there are many things that could be associated as being a deity, such as this: Our universe was cretaed by an artificial big bang in a lab of a society in a universe whom created our universe as a power source.
Creator yes, magical or supernatural no.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by shmick25

Really? And does this explain objects flying around a room, claw marks magically appearing around a persons neck, the ability to speak in non learned languages?

Forgive my ignorance here but....what? Are you claiming that objects fly around rooms and claw marks magically appear on folks, or am I misunderstanding your meaning?

Yes and yes.

My father and another man met with a lady who had been heavily into the occult. He was doing Bible studies with her. When they went to her house, she opened the door and was a mess with claw marks, chain marks etc around her neck and body. She lived alone. The guy that went with my father kept seeing her (dad was frieked out) went blind for no apparent reason a few years later and he had fits of depression and tried to kill himself numerous times.

A friend of mine has had some strange supernatural experiences with objects flying around his room and unseen 'forces' moving over his body at night. Frieky and you most probably wont believe, but they have no reason to lie to me.

I have more stories like this! Believe me, there IS a supernatural world out there!!

So the only thing that makes people belive in creationism is faith. But what about those kooks that think we were Cloned by aliens and put here on earth. THey have faith in there thoughs, so which is crazier, Personaly i think it is more crazy that god made all these things, much more beliveable that aliens put us here. At least most people think that aliens exist.

If you are able to elaborate, I would be very grateful. I think it's something people need to hear so this would be an ideal forum. Also any outcomes would be helpful for those challenged with the same situations.

A friend of mine has had some strange supernatural experiences with objects flying around his room and unseen 'forces' moving over his body at night. Frieky and you most probably wont believe, but they have no reason to lie to me.

So you never actually saw any of this your self? No sarcasim intended here
just wondering.
I was sharing a house with some "Born Agains" a few years ago and they
all seemed to know about the very things that you were talking about.
Strangely enough when I investigated further, not one of them had actually seem it for themselves, it was always a friend of a friend, or a
specially annointed pastor, or there Uncle's dog's brother

You do see my point though?

[edit on 25-12-2004 by madhatter]

Originally posted by TKainZero
I have never gotten how these people that think that god made the earth in 7 days, or that there was nothing and then poof, there is everything. It is purely insane. Can everyone here give me any fact, sientific or not that this is even possible. Also question to you, people like to try to debunk the big bang by saying that where did the stuff come from if there was nothing there, then i ask you where did your gad come from, the same nothing that you doubt?

[edit on 12/21/2004 by TKainZero]

Faith..is believing that which common sense tells you not to.

Originally posted by madhatter

A friend of mine has had some strange supernatural experiences with objects flying around his room and unseen 'forces' moving over his body at night. Frieky and you most probably wont believe, but they have no reason to lie to me.

So you never actually saw any of this your self? No sarcasim intended here
just wondering.
I was sharing a house with some "Born Agains" a few years ago and they
all seemed to know about the very things that you were talking about.
Strangely enough when I investigated further, not one of them had actually seem it for themselves, it was always a friend of a friend, or a
specially annointed pastor, or there Uncle's dog's brother

You do see my point though?

[edit on 25-12-2004 by madhatter]

Yeah, I do see your point, but this can be applied to everything in life. Have you seen a nuclear missile with your own eyes or have you just heard about them? There is a thing called 'reliable sources'. My father has no need to lie to me. My friend has no need to lie to me. The pastor of my church has no need to lie to me. Local villages in Vanautu have no need to lie to me. Your argument really does not stand up.

Why don't you do a bit of research about the movie 'The Exorsist' You will find that it is actually based on a true story. The concept of 'demon' possession is not new. There are numerous examples in the new testiment.

Hi Saint. Appreciate your response. I will think about putting together some stories later.

My father has no need to lie to me. My friend has no need to lie to me. The pastor of my church has no need to lie to me. Local villages in Vanautu have no need to lie to me. Your argument really does not stand up.

I certainly don't mean to call anyone a liar, however I was talking from
a personal perspective, I guess I'm one of these Black and White people when it comes to this kind of thing, and not meaning to bash
christian people either.

It just seems to me that when it comes to Demonic Possesion, Excorsisms,
eyes changing color, anything else you can name, most times (though I'm
sure not always) tends to come from second and third hand sources.

I was given a book to read many years ago called Pigs In The Parlour which I will admit was a great read on spiritual warfare.

Again though, no real concrete evidence, just a story told to someone...
told to someone else....you get what I'm saying.

No Offence to you intended.
Have a great Christmas

Originally posted by shmick25
My father and another man met with a lady who had been heavily into the occult. He was doing Bible studies with her. When they went to her house, she opened the door and was a mess with claw marks, chain marks etc around her neck and body. She lived alone.

Witnessing her with marks on her body after the they were inflicted isn't enough to conclude they were inlicted by demons. Self mutalation can be common in people who have pshychosis.

The guy that went with my father kept seeing her (dad was frieked out) went blind for no apparent reason a few years later and he had fits of depression and tried to kill himself numerous times.

A few years later he went blind? There is a wide range of things that can cause blindness.. if it was indeed 'demon' associated with this woman.. why didn't it happen the next day or something? Thats a bit of a stretch.

Originally posted by shmick25


Why don't you do a bit of research about the movie 'The Exorsist' You will find that it is actually based on a true story. The concept of 'demon' possession is not new. There are numerous examples in the new testiment.

"The Exorcist" is indeed loosely based on a true story, but the "true story" is of course much different than the movie. There is nothing supernatural in the true story; only a little boy (not girl, as in the movie) who was emotionally disturbed, and his parents, who were religious fanatics, believed a good ol' exorcism would help more than psychiatric counseling.

www.radfordreviews.com...

Schmick is correct that the Bible mentions demonic possession. So do some of the writings from other religions. However, in more superstitious times, it is fairly easy to see why people believed that those who suffered from epileptic seizures were "demonically possessed." Epilepsy causes its victims to fall to the ground, shake violently, the eyes to roll back in the head. Convulsions in the larynx sometimes cause the victim to groan in gibberish.

Such things are now known to have biological causes, not demonic ones.

Furthermore, Newton's law of gravity prohibits objects from just jumping up and flying around the room. Thermodynamics and Einstein's General Theory of Relativity concur. Not a single case of such a thing has ever been documented, although there is no shortage of New Agers who make such spurious claims. But claiming a thing, and demonstrating that such a thing is true, are two different things.

As for Schmick's dad, I would agree there is no reason for him to lie to his kids, and he was probably being honest about what he himself believed. People tend to "see" things that validate their own pre-conceived notions, regardless if what they "see" matches up to what is actually there. Psychological experiments have demonstrated this time and time again.

Therefore, if an exorcist expects to encounter a demonically possessed individual, he will often find exactly that, while an unbiased skeptic in the same room will notice nothing supernatural, but only epilepsy or mental illness in the part of the victim.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by shmick25


Why don't you do a bit of research about the movie 'The Exorsist' You will find that it is actually based on a true story. The concept of 'demon' possession is not new. There are numerous examples in the new testiment.

"The Exorcist" is indeed loosely based on a true story, but the "true story" is of course much different than the movie. There is nothing supernatural in the true story; only a little boy (not girl, as in the movie) who was emotionally disturbed, and his parents, who were religious fanatics, believed a good ol' exorcism would help more than psychiatric counseling.

www.radfordreviews.com...

Schmick is correct that the Bible mentions demonic possession. So do some of the writings from other religions. However, in more superstitious times, it is fairly easy to see why people believed that those who suffered from epileptic seizures were "demonically possessed." Epilepsy causes its victims to fall to the ground, shake violently, the eyes to roll back in the head. Convulsions in the larynx sometimes cause the victim to groan in gibberish.

Such things are now known to have biological causes, not demonic ones.

Furthermore, Newton's law of gravity prohibits objects from just jumping up and flying around the room. Thermodynamics and Einstein's General Theory of Relativity concur. Not a single case of such a thing has ever been documented, although there is no shortage of New Agers who make such spurious claims. But claiming a thing, and demonstrating that such a thing is true, are two different things.

As for Schmick's dad, I would agree there is no reason for him to lie to his kids, and he was probably being honest about what he himself believed. People tend to "see" things that validate their own pre-conceived notions, regardless if what they "see" matches up to what is actually there. Psychological experiments have demonstrated this time and time again.

Therefore, if an exorcist expects to encounter a demonically possessed individual, he will often find exactly that, while an unbiased skeptic in the same room will notice nothing supernatural, but only epilepsy or mental illness in the part of the victim.

Hi Masonic Light. Thanks for you post. In reply to your article regarding the movie, the link I made was from another article I read some time ago and will have to chase it up. This is an interesting read though - www.strangemag.com...

In regards to your claims about Exorcism, this article may interest you from Father Gabriel Amorth. He is the Catholic Church's chief Exorcist.

www.thecatholiclibrary.org...

this thread has kinda evolved a little??? now its talk about people being possesed by the devil etc...what happened to the creationism thread and why people believe in it???

In the immortal words of Rodney King, "Why can't we all jus git alone?"

man was created and evolved just as the good lord intended. Whats so difficult to understand about that statement?

What differance does it make if the creator of all things was stirring primordial soup a billion years ago or slapping together mud patties 6000 years ago. Were still here NOW and have to deal with that.

I was having a discussion with my child the other day about reincarnation. I explained to him how irrelevent it is. < kinda like this conversation> I told him:

It doesn't matter when you are. It doesn't matter where you are or how you are, it doesn't even matter why you are. All that matters is who you are, and only you can decide that.

You see, The path one walks does not make them holy, they must make the path holy regardless of the path they have chosen.

If someone chooses to believe in creationism thats just fine. If someone chooses to believe in evolution thats just as fine. It doesn't really matter.

What matters is who they have chosen to be, what they have chosen to do with their lives and how they have brought light to the dark places of this world. An enlightened soul will glow as surely as a firefly in the dark of a moonless night, as if a beacon to other truth seekers.

Love and light to each of you,

Wupy