Let's Talk About Prostitution

a reply to: 727Sky

perhaps my comment was a bit too vague.

What I mean, is that enacting laws to prevent people from doing things they will historically do anyways is not only a waste of taxpayer money, it also has a habit of endangering people.

Prostitution should be 100% legal and regulated. That is what I meant. Yes, we require laws to prevent individuals from harming others or their property, but when it comes to legislating morality, it never works. Take prohibition, or the war on drugs. Or prostitution. You can only do so much, so the goal should be to stop wasting money on prosecuting people that will continue in their own behaviors. That money could be better spent in other areas while helping to keep prostitutes off the streets and keeping both them and johns accountable, clean, and safe.

a reply to: Astrocyte

Well if you're theory is correct.

Then the only way we should legalize and tax it would be if the sin tax for it goes into a closed loop system. Those taxes should only go to programs designed to help those burned by it. In the case of drugs, the money goes to rehab programs and things of that nature. In the case of prostitution, it would go to helping getting working girls out of work.

Because if your theory is correct, then those are revenue streams that will dry up slowly but surely, and as we all know, once the state latches on to revenue and gets accustomed to it, it can't do without. Look at what's happening now that the sin tax on gasoline is finely starting to work - instead of budgeting with the reduced revenue, states are looking for ways to continue punishing people for driving even though they bought hybrids and extremely fuel efficient cars. They're looking now to tax miles driven with little black boxes.

a reply to: STTesc

Because no matter which way you look at it, it is exploitation of the prostitute - normally an underage prostitute.

The only potential benefit of having sex for money - the money itself - goes directly to the pimp.

"The girl keeps nothing," said Cindy, a former trafficking victim. "Absolutely zero." Cindy was considered a "high-class escort," working in Las Vegas for large sums of money.

"It's a lot safer to sell women than to sell drugs," explained one trafficker.

Danielle agrees. "My pimp was never arrested. The johns are never arrested. I was arrested too many times to count... Nobody said to me, 'Do you need to talk? Do you want to be put in a program?'... And then my pimp would come pick me up and I would be working again within a few hours."

-----------

Unfortunately the trafficking of minors is not on the wane, but growing continuously. One vice detective says, "When I first got to vice, it was few and far between that you would run across a teenage girl... and now it seems like it's all the time."

newwavefeminists.blogspot.ca...

originally posted by: Astrocyte
a reply to: yuppa

Well your area of expertise makes you biased to find something wrong with everyone you come across in your job though.

I have read some asinine things in my days, but this takes the cake.

If someone comes to therapy, they come of their own volition. When they admit to a history of sexual abuse - relational abuse (emotional abuse) and physical abuse - it takes time, effort and tremendous empathy to be with a person when they expose themselves like this. In fact - it can be painful: could you tolerate wincing faces, flowing tears, and an anxious voice? Pay attention to it - attend to it and all that they feel? And respond not merely with a sense of what they're experiencing 'from the inside', but have some psychoanalytic understanding, a sense of what you need to do to bring them to the next step of the process?

I'm not the only person - in fact, MOST PEOPLE, not just psychologists, but sociologists, philosophers, pretty much most people who actually think with an open mind about the subject - understand the intrinsic relation between trauma and prostitution.

Turning oneself into a commodity is an act of desperation. Not anything a healthy mind would willingly decide upon.

Way to cherry pick something there. I wasnt trying to be insulting though. Does your model of trauma hold up in places where prostitution is legal and the girls are not forced or pressured to enter into it? And I see you avoided my questions i asked. Itake it you do not like being asked questions a person in your posistion ask others?

See not everyone falls into the same mold.when you make a statement that most or all people understand a subject normally thats normally wrong.

originally posted by: Astrocyte
Does it all matter to you the type of history these girls have? In other words, do you care that the majority of these girls suffered sexual, emotional and physical abuse as children? And hence, are so willing to sell themselves as objects?

I agree that many may have suffered abuse as children, but I do know that going into prostitution is also a way of taking control, and can be a healthy way to reclaim what was taken from them. It can actually be a step toward healing. It's not so much selling one's self as an object, but empowering one's self to be in control.

Also, if prostitution is an outcome of girls suffering sexual abuse, shouldn't we tackle THAT (which clearly has a victim and is the CAUSE of the problem) instead of keeping prostitution, which you're saying is a symptom of abuse, illegal?

To the ones who are bringing up human trafficking, pimping and underage prostitution, this isn't about that. This is about adult women (and men) deciding what THEY do with their own bodies. Bringing in these other topics just clouds the issue. Maybe that's the purpose.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

No, it doesn't.

Human trafficking and the like increase when you legalize prostitution, so you open the door to one, and you also open the door to the other at the same time. You can't just deal with one in the vacuum and ignore that you are going to have to deal with the other.

Things do not happen in a vacuum as much as you would like them to.

originally posted by: ketsuko
Human trafficking and the like increase when you legalize prostitution,

Then strengthen the laws and ENFORCEMENT for sex trafficking. Use the money and resources that we now use for prosecuting victimless crimes and actually DO something about human trafficking. Prostitution could be legal, regulated and SAFE. Get the girls OFF the streets, encourage testing (including drug testing) of employees, registration of employees, etc.

It makes sense to me that legalizing prostitution would mean increased access by the government, and therefore more sex crime activity would be discovered. So, it's very possible that the sex trafficking isn't actually increased, but more of it is discovered and can be dealt with.

originally posted by: SallieSunshine
Some pertinent questions for anyone who thinks prostitution should be legal:

1. How do you think most prostitutes end up in that profession?
2. Do you think prostitutes have high self esteem?
3. Do you think prostitutes find happiness and satisfaction in their 'work' ?
4. Would you want to be a prostitute?
5. And lastly, would you want your daughter, mother, or sister to be a prostitute? Why or why not?

Sal

a reply to: STTesc

1) I've asked a few and they told me they do it because they can make more money from it than working in an office (which is very true btw).

2) Some do honestly 'love' doing it...

3) Again some do find 'satisfaction' in their work because it can pay for a lifestyle they can only dream about otherwise and these women love the money!

4) No.

5) Don't think so.

originally posted by: Astrocyte
a reply to: Answer

Does it all matter to you the type of history these girls have? In other words, do you care that the majority of these girls suffered sexual, emotional and physical abuse as children? And hence, are so willing to sell themselves as objects?

Nope, because there's nothing stopping those girls from going out and having casual sex with random strangers if they choose. Just because they're making money from it doesn't mean they're all screwed in the head. That's your perception which is flawed because you said: "As a psychoanalyst and traumatologist (a specialist in the treatment of psychological trauma)" and then you followed that with "I don't think I have ever met or known a prostitute who didn't have immense emotional-relational problems stemming from early life relational/physical abuse." So your statement is like a chiropractor saying "I meet people all the time with bad backs" and using that as a basis to proclaim the status of everyone else's back. I'm going to assume the only prostitutes you've talked to are ones who sought help from your place of business...

Should we aggressively fight against abuse, both emotional and physical? Absolutely. Should we lump all women who choose a lifestyle of which you don't approve into the category of "abuse victim who doesn't know how to live a normal life"? Absolutely not.

This is no different than the anti-drug crowd who claim that A) people who use drugs have an abusive past and B) people who use drugs will become addicts and ruin their lives. It's a case of painting with a very broad and inaccurate brush because of one's own personal experiences or bias.

Of course, this element of the equation - the back history which frames the current mindset - is not an easy thing to reflect upon.

Only the most honest and courageous minds stand up to the ignorance that unfettered sexual desire feeds upon.

Only an ignoramus tries to legislate people's sexual desires.

Key word: men. There's a reason prostitution and pornography exist, and it's men. The problem, ultimately, both for the woman who experiences trauma and succumbs to the allure of making money, and the man who searches for woman to objectify as sex-toys, is the problem of the male psyche.

Oh baloney. Men like sex, women like sex, plenty of women love being "objectified as sex-toys" just look at how many copies of the "Fifty Shades of Gray" series have been sold. How completely not surprising that you'd blame the whole thing on men objectifying women. A lot of those women feel like they're objectifying men. They rent out their vagina for a bit and get paid WAY more than the vast majority of men and you don't think that's empowering at all?

Plenty of women like pornography. The men and women who do porn get into the industry by choice. There's a ton of money to be made. Just because you have emotional hang-ups with the whole situation, don't paint the whole world with your own bias.

One can almost agree with the medical anthropologist Melvin Konner that, with minds like yours, it might well be a good idea - evolutionary speaking - to eliminate males from the evolutionary equation, since, as any biologically informed person would know, woman can procreate without men (via genetic manipulation of the egg), but men cannot - in fact, in all of nature, do not exist - without the influence of women.

Ah yes, I'm just a chauvinistic pig who is ruining the world because I look at the reality of the issue and ignore all the emotional namby-pamby BS that contributes to the problem.

originally posted by: Astrocyte

Turning oneself into a commodity is an act of desperation. Not anything a healthy mind would willingly decide upon.

So all models are mentally ill?

All women who participate in beauty pageants are mentally ill?

All people who play professional sports are mentally ill?

Arguably, we're all a commodity in one way or another. Where do you draw the line? Is a waitress who shows a little extra cleavage to get better tips mentally ill? How about a waitress at Hooters and similar restaurants where the entire premise is "show more skin and flirt to get bigger tips"?

Prostitution is legal in the United States. If you record it and make it public, it's legal, you're a paid actor. If you keep it behind closed doors and private it's illegal. Just wanted to point that out, makes no real sense to me.

legalized prostitution doesn't work,

www2.canada.com...

Evidence from countries that have already taken this step make it abundantly clear that legalizing prostitution won't enhance anyone's liberty and security-- it will only enhance sexual exploitation and human trafficking.
In 2000, The Netherlands fully legalized prostitution. It wanted to bring the profession out of the shadows of criminal activity and protect the sex workers. Sounds like our noble, altruistic Osgoode Hall plan but, as they should note, it didn't work and is now being reversed.
Seven years later, Amsterdam's infamous red light district had spread decline throughout the city. No longer a hot tourist destination, it degenerated into the stomping grounds for organized crime, money laundering and drug abuse. It became a prime destination for human trafficking for sexual exploitation (for about 7,000 women per year).
The dream was that legalization would eliminate pimps and turn prostitutes and brothel owners into honourable, taxpaying citizens. But officials say the industry remains dominated by organized crime and sex slaves. About 96 per cent of prostitutes are working illegally, 80-85 per cent of prostituted women are of non-Dutch origin, and 70-75 per cent have no legal papers to live or work in The Netherlands.

Australia didn't fare much better. It legalized prostitution in 1999 for the same reasons as the Netherlands, yet a just-released report by the University of Queensland Working Group on Human Trafficking shows legalization has been an abject failure in reducing organized crime and bettering the lives and conditions of sex workers.

that the following will be pedophilia cannibalism murder?

I have been a 'relationship' with Lexy T., a local Escort or Performance Artist as I refer to her ... for 4 years now

She has insights into the underbelly of the community which is obscure to 'authorities'... for instance I bet in the next 3 or so months the MSM, Authorities will be reporting there has been a major increase in STDs here along the 60 mile long Grand Strand of SC Beach communities
Lexy T. says there are lots of new gals out there (flooding the streets) just getting started in the trade, young gals without a lick of sense that take risky adventures too often and too intensely... an unwise combination

every community has their edition of backpage.com for networking a following
an 8 hr shift as a waitess return-on-investment pales to independent contractor status in this tourist area

a reply to: St Udio

I think you should edit your post before it gets deleted for advertising that site!

Just heads-up.

a reply to: Stormdancer777

I t dont work if not heavily regulated and i mean every dollar every penny and extensive backround checking. No people who have drug issues,No males allowwed except customers and every room or establishment has security cams/and guards. Random inspections who they are friends with and associate with as well. also make it so their Money does not go anywhere but into their accounts alone with no one able to access it but them. Going plastic would screw alot of organized crime over that prefeers cash because its not as traceable.

The things I suggest are common sense an did bet they didnt do that in Canada or australia or amsterdam right?

a reply to: STTesc

You can always move to Dorne; I hear their laws are more open to interpretation-Just kidding.

Prostitution is one of the oldest professions on this planet and yet thousands of years later it's considered illegal and/or immoral-how does that even happen?

a reply to: STTesc

Personally, I cannot begin to imagine a time that I would pay outright for sex.

But, there is the old thought of you pay for sex in ways other than X sexual act, $450....

However, the idea that anyone has the right to tell two consenting adults who are neither forced into the act nor hurting or being hurt by that act is utterly ludicrous.

lets talk about " casual farm labourers " in the UK

trust me its relevant

now being a casual farm labourer is a legal job - it is SUPPOSED to pay minimum wage or above

yet every year we get case after case of undocumented farm labourers [ mostly from none EU . eastern european states ] being underpaid , abused , kept prisoner etc etc etc

now - tell me what the benefits of legalised prostitution are again ?