Are you SURE you really really want to get into it with Russia?

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Actually,I am discussing all aspects with Russia as the foe.You are nickel and diming with no cause. My post title does not specify which type of war,only to think about going to war. We are currently trying to deploy a missile defense system around Russia and have been,Russia was the enemy to NATO even when they weren't. NATO should have been disbanded and must make a reason for their being. This missile defense system they are touting doesn't seem to work too well,and yet they are still trying it. They will end up setting off a war for nothing. But there is money to be made.

There is way too much money to be made in buying weapons of mass destruction to actually use them.

Is it a coincidence that both countries economies have just started to improve?

Bring back the cold war, the James Bond movies have run out of scripts!

originally posted by: Dimithae
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Actually,I am discussing all aspects with Russia as the foe.You are nickel and diming with no cause. My post title does not specify which type of war,only to think about going to war.

False. You specifically mention new weapons systems. They had nukes quite a while back, so you clearly are not talking about them.

Russia hasn't been sitting on their butts either. Remember,they went into space before we did.Us going to the moon was just a pissing contest between the 2 countries.Things have been building up over there and I have heard that even our top brass were taken back by some of things the Russians are building.

But you are clearly a Russia lover West hater ...

We are currently trying to deploy a missile defense system around Russia and have been,Russia was the enemy to NATO even when they weren't. NATO should have been disbanded and must make a reason for their being. This missile defense system they are touting doesn't seem to work too well,and yet they are still trying it. They will end up setting off a war for nothing. But there is money to be made.

NATO is not around because of Russia. Had Russia kept the way they were going they could have eventually joined NATO. Russia chose to be an enemy. The article you cite says nothing of the NATO system, it specifically talks about a system designed for mainland US, put in the ocean, when it should have been put on land .. like the NATO systems.

originally posted by: luthier
Germany had far superior technology than Russian and beat them by strategy, toughness, and will.

That is not true. German technological mastery is simply a myth. They did lose the war in Europe for a reason. Many of Russias weapons were far better than the German stuff. Germany never had a proper big bomber unlike Russia which developed them. Russian fighters were just as good. More importantly its tanks were totally inferior to Russias, their technology was light weight compared to the most excellent T34. Russian technology defeated Germany at Kursk and thus Germany lost the war due to Russias technological edge. Even when the Germans developed a serious heavy Tank (thieving the ideas from captured Russian technology) in the Tiger platform it proved very unreliable and complicated and constantly went wrong.

originally posted by: 02bmw76
You won't have to worry about it because just like with WWII we are trying to use Europe again as the proxy for our money making ventures. We damn sure don't want the Russians coming here nor do I think we could go all the way there with the eventuality of winning a war in Russia with our ground troops.

A US draft would go over like a lead balloon and we just don't have
enough ground troops to do it ever because we are spread too thin around the rest of the globe. It is a fact that USSR kicked Germanys ass and the US didn't show up 'til it was already in the bag. So all the US flag waiving isn't really accurate regarding the Russians. The neocons plan is only to make money while draining others of theirs with the end result being a maintained US global hegemony.

Much like Rome, I believe US history will eventually repeat itself if we choose to be ignorant and blind with hegemonic hubris. I find it interesting that despite all the propaganda out there so few people in the US are aware of the speech Putin gave in Socchi last October. He declared that unlike the US and its quest for being a global empire Russia wants to have prosperous partnerships with many of the world's nations. That is exactly what scares the crap out of the insane neocons. We like partnerships that WE control arbitrarily. I believe the neocons are so hell bent on maintaing global hedgemony that they'll easily throw out the baby with the bathwater. Hell, we've been doing a great job of it already in the mideast. Its not a secret that we have Victoria Nuland doing the neocon bidding (and screwing in the backside) of the Ukrainian people to control our hegemony. Anyone who denies it is a liar.

Putin isn't worried about a world war that he doesn't need to start. He may be worried about being dragged into one though as those who really are honest about what is happening globally are aware. Given enough time this fascist oligarchy we have going here will eventually come to a head. Nobody wins nuclear. Even Israel knows that and that is why Iran has been two years away from nukes for about thirty years. Its all about the hegemony and absolutely nothing else. Others can just sit back and watch us slowly fall apart unless our neocons are truly willing to destroy the Earth by going nuclear. This subject doen't even include the possibility of China partnering with Russia if its the only hope for them to recover some of our debt to them when the war is over and they are dividing the US territory between themselves.

Are you kidding?

America played absolutely no role in starting WW2.

It was a combination of France and england placing Germany in an even worse position than it already was by forcing war reparations on them that crushed their economy.

America argued against this the entire time.

At that point the German money was so worthless it was more valuable to burn it for heat than to use it to buy goods.

Then Hitler came to power, promising to fix the economy, and restore the crestfallen Germans back to their rightful place as one if the master races at the top of the global power structure.

He then went on a little land grabbing session much like Putin's current misadventures.

Claiming that he was just trying to protect the German speaking ethnic German populations of those areas.

Sound familiar?

Putin is using the exact same strategy today in his land grabs.

At which point France and england declared war.

But it was too late, they had let the Germans develop too much weaponry and too many soldiers.

France in their folly planned all their military strategy development and spending into the "unbreakable" maginot line. That spanned the border between france and Germany.

The Nazis went right around it through the ardens forest and conquered france in 2 weeks, trapping the entire remaining French and most of the English armies in a port city, where they were evacuated across the English channel to safety.

America stayed out if the war entirely until the pearl harbor attack.

Though entirely is a stretch as we were sending equipment and volunteer pilots to support Britain during the battle of Britain.

Germany attacked Russia, and was just running them over until the idiot Hitler demand they take a city with zero strategic importance.

The battle of Stalin grad is where things turned sour for the Nazis.

It gave the Russians enough time to mobilize and prepare over the winter for a counter offensive.

At this point Stalin was begging the west to open up a second front because the Germans were still pounding his army into the ground at a rate they could not support.

A series of strategic mistakes by the Germans as well as some strategic diception on the part if the allies kept a great deal if germanies forces tied up in the mediteranian to protect Italy since the fall if its leader mousilini, who was overthrown in a coup by it people and hanged in public.

At this point the allies launched operation "over lord" the largest amphibious landing of all human history.

Germany being crushed by the weight of the combined free world on one side, and the Russians on the other it was only a matter of time and everyone knew it.

Nowvthat you understand how and what happened in WW2 what were you saying again?

a reply to: Dimithae

The idea of getting into a war with Russia is effing insane. That would very likely be the end of human civilation and maybe the end of all life on earth.

Getting sick of a bunch of slow in the head people pushing for war. I really try to take a step back on most issues these days and respect there are opinions that are not mine. But this...this is an issue for those with the mental capacity to grasp the consequences. I am not ok with fools, both in and out of government, getting me nuked. Take a step back and consider these things or step out of the way and let reasonable folks keep you from destroying the entire world.

originally posted by: pirhanna
a reply to: Dimithae

The idea of getting into a war with Russia is effing insane. That would very likely be the end of human civilation and maybe the end of all life on earth.

Getting sick of a bunch of slow in the head people pushing for war. I really try to take a step back on most issues these days and respect there are opinions that are not mine. But this...this is an issue for those with the mental capacity to grasp the consequences. I am not ok with fools, both in and out of government, getting me nuked. Take a step back and consider these things or step out of the way and let reasonable folks keep you from destroying the entire world.

So what is you plan then?

Appeasement?

Let putin just keep attacking and taking land from his neighbors?

That didn't work out well the last time the appeasement doctrine was tried.

In fact it led to WW2, because it emboldened Hitler to take even more, until he was too powerful to stop without it costing the world millions of lives and untold suffering on all sides.

Besides, do you really think putin will start a war just to take pieces of eastern Europe?

I don't.

If you don't stand up to a bully, they will keep bullying forever.

originally posted by: pirhanna
a reply to: Dimithae

The idea of getting into a war with Russia is effing insane. That would very likely be the end of human civilation and maybe the end of all life on earth.

Getting sick of a bunch of slow in the head people pushing for war. I really try to take a step back on most issues these days and respect there are opinions that are not mine. But this...this is an issue for those with the mental capacity to grasp the consequences. I am not ok with fools, both in and out of government, getting me nuked. Take a step back and consider these things or step out of the way and let reasonable folks keep you from destroying the entire world.

So if Putin decides he want Poland and Lithuania .. let him? All of Europe .. let him? Where do you live ... Putin demands that too .. effing insane to say no?

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: pirhanna
a reply to: Dimithae

The idea of getting into a war with Russia is effing insane. That would very likely be the end of human civilation and maybe the end of all life on earth.

Getting sick of a bunch of slow in the head people pushing for war. I really try to take a step back on most issues these days and respect there are opinions that are not mine. But this...this is an issue for those with the mental capacity to grasp the consequences. I am not ok with fools, both in and out of government, getting me nuked. Take a step back and consider these things or step out of the way and let reasonable folks keep you from destroying the entire world.

So if Putin decides he want Poland and Lithuania .. let him? All of Europe .. let him? Where do you live ... Putin demands that too .. effing insane to say no?

I agree.

Only force can stop a tyrant intent on playing at empire.

I thought the world learned this in the 1940s.

Diseases pertaining to the health of the planet and its inhabitants deserve early intervention.

How that is played out depends on the sensibilities of the relevant players ...

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
We don't want war with anyone at all.

If you truly believe this

You are completely deluded

I used to respect you somewhat because you seemed like a disgruntled veteran or something

But if you believe what you wrote there, you my friend need to re asses what you eat drink smoke Etc

a reply to: WineAndCheese9

I was RECON.
Russian troops ,their structure and training SUCKS ,because they aren't free thinkers. Examinig ALPHA deployments show they aren't even as good as American police SWAT teams,their hostage losses have been absolutely ABYSMAL compared to SAS or SEAL team 6 and DELTA. AGAIN no money for advanced training abroad and hostility to independent thinking.
I 'm NOT disgruntled,I have been LIED to for DECADES that makes me EXISTENTIALLY angry.
WE DO own conventional combat easily,Russia got screwed by our admin after the cold war because I THINK we didn't rebuild their economy after we destroyed it,like Reagan planned. If they had the cash ,MAYBE they would have joined the US in a co-dominion pact,to secure us both.
THE oligarchs who ACTUALLY run the economic system refused to do that as war is an easy paycheck so they kept the money after Reagan left and made sure the military industrial complex in the US,remained adversarial to Russia.
The US forces are absolutely dedicated to bringing every one home,survival of our troops is the primary goal when they deploy. It would be UNTHINKABLE to continue training isf we loose a serice member.
Russians expend people in combat far too easily,without an officer present,they would sell their equipment or severly breach prpfessional soldiering becomong undisciplined thugs. HOSTAGES make crappy soldiers,eastern armies need to figure it out.IF you operate on fear based commands it screws up everything.
Their technological skill is not in doubt...IF they have the cash AND they are led by a sane man.
Neither is true right now.
WHICH of us is indeed deluded?
NONE of that is to my pleasure BY ANY stretch of imagination. I wanted a joint pact, I WANT a unified planet BUT NEVER under these F##KERS running things NOW

a reply to: cavtrooper7

I was RECON.

Enjoy...



This is how we can not fight wars we settle it in the ring.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: luthier
Germany had far superior technology than Russian and beat them by strategy, toughness, and will.

That is not true. German technological mastery is simply a myth. They did lose the war in Europe for a reason. Many of Russias weapons were far better than the German stuff. Germany never had a proper big bomber unlike Russia which developed them. Russian fighters were just as good. More importantly its tanks were totally inferior to Russias, their technology was light weight compared to the most excellent T34. Russian technology defeated Germany at Kursk and thus Germany lost the war due to Russias technological edge. Even when the Germans developed a serious heavy Tank (thieving the ideas from captured Russian technology) in the Tiger platform it proved very unreliable and complicated and constantly went wrong.

Completely inaccurate.

Russia was in a position during their invasion from Germany where their soldiers didn't even use guns they had no ammunition and had pikes and swords. I suggest you read some history. Like Stalingrad.

a reply to: Dimithae

Wouldnt be a war at all...no time to get into one due to assured mutual destructionfor bothside, and fallout will kill the rest of the earth.

Let one nuke go...by either side....and we are all toast.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: cavtrooper7

I was RECON.

Enjoy...

That just says it all..... With this mentallity I've no doubt the USA wants war and will take us all with them straight to hell.

Insanity.... I dispair.

a reply to: Dimithae

The United States and Russia are already at war. The chosen field of battle is the economy. Russia is losing.

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
a reply to: WineAndCheese9

I was RECON.
Russian troops ,their structure and training SUCKS ,because they aren't free thinkers. Examinig ALPHA deployments show they aren't even as good as American police SWAT teams,their hostage losses have been absolutely ABYSMAL compared to SAS or SEAL team 6 and DELTA. AGAIN no money for advanced training abroad and hostility to independent thinking.
I 'm NOT disgruntled,I have been LIED to for DECADES that makes me EXISTENTIALLY angry.
WE DO own conventional combat easily,Russia got screwed by our admin after the cold war because I THINK we didn't rebuild their economy after we destroyed it,like Reagan planned. If they had the cash ,MAYBE they would have joined the US in a co-dominion pact,to secure us both.
THE oligarchs who ACTUALLY run the economic system refused to do that as war is an easy paycheck so they kept the money after Reagan left and made sure the military industrial complex in the US,remained adversarial to Russia.
The US forces are absolutely dedicated to bringing every one home,survival of our troops is the primary goal when they deploy. It would be UNTHINKABLE to continue training isf we loose a serice member.
Russians expend people in combat far too easily,without an officer present,they would sell their equipment or severly breach prpfessional soldiering becomong undisciplined thugs. HOSTAGES make crappy soldiers,eastern armies need to figure it out.IF you operate on fear based commands it screws up everything.
Their technological skill is not in doubt...IF they have the cash AND they are led by a sane man.
Neither is true right now.
WHICH of us is indeed deluded?
NONE of that is to my pleasure BY ANY stretch of imagination. I wanted a joint pact, I WANT a unified planet BUT NEVER under these F##KERS running things NOW

First

I really hate these kinds of threads, usually because the OP has little to no understanding of what a war with Russia or China for that matter would really be. In a conventional war with either country they lose flat out. Neither has the capability to launch an assault on the US mainland. Neither has the ability to maintain air superiority, the one thing that any nation embroiled in a war must be able to do to have success.

And they frequently overlook the fact that should a war with the US happen the US does not have to actually invade either nation to win. Wars are expensive and a drag on the economy. With defensive bases spread over Europe and Asia the only thing the US has to do to win is keep Russia or China contained within their own borders making the war last beyond their capacity or desire to fight it. This isn't the 1940's , the US has become very good at eliminating the infrastructure required to wage war from the air. The truth is that for either China or Russia to instigate a war is a risky proposition for their regimes. Common people will only endure hardship for so long before they start revolting and a military worn down from a fruitless war makes that even more likely.