Should gay people fight for the right for anti-gay businesses to take their money or just boycott?

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: nenothtu

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: LewsTherinThelamon

The US is not a feudalist monarchy. We recognize the natural rights of humans, which includes commerce and the right to engage in trade.

Could you please provide factual documentation on that.

How much factual documentation on it are you willing to read?

Just a link I could read would be fine.

I mean, what counts as facts? Case law? The writings of enlightenment-era philosophers?

a reply to: LewsTherinThelamon

No. This isn't about control over People Behaviors or their Morality. It's about the regulation of Business Practices. Businesses are subject to certain laws and regulations even when people aren't. When a person is acting as an agent of a business they are then also subject to the laws and regulations of said business as well. There is a separation of the two.

a reply to: Deaf Alien

Ooooh yes I am a fascist. Seig Heil! *facepalms*

If you use law to force people to behave the way you want them to behave--just like the people in Indiana--then you are a fascist.

There are only fascists and anarchists.

Have you considered not using law?

What makes you think we didn't consider that?

Because it's never been done.

a reply to: LewsTherinThelamon

I don't think you read my post, either you didn't read it or you failed at comprehending it. I can't dumb my words down anymore.

Sighs now the personal attacks starts just like the other guy did with your same arguments.

OK.

It would cause the re-arranging of society where communities that support the discrimination of group X would flourish, but at the same time, other communities would be formed where businesses that discriminate against any group would go out of business.

Again people have explained that.

I am going to give you one example. If a person drives through one of those communities that discriminate and breaks down there. He is refused service because of who is he and the nearest service is hours away.

If you want more answer please read the other threads.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: nenothtu

Now we are to ignore that, and discriminate against those religious folk.

We are not trying to discriminate against them. What we want is equality. Huge difference.

Yes, there IS a huge difference - but "equality" is not what you are after - or at least I don't think it is. maybe I'm wrong. First, you'll have to define what you mean by "equality". When you tell someone else how to run their life, is it not "equality" for them to tell you how to run your own as well? If you tell them what they are going to do and that they are going to like it, is it not "equality" for them to have the same privilege towards you?

If they just have to sit there and take it, do what master says like some slave in the field, is that not "discriminatory"?

I presume that, because this discussion revolves around a law, that you mean "equality under the law" or "legal equality" when you say equality is what you're after - am I right about that, or are you after some other sort of equality? We can deal with equality under the law in real short order.

Replace the word gay in the title for black and you have your answer op.
Of course they should fight...no one gets equal status without a fight.
Oh and religious people who disagree with gays or gay marriage are just using their religion as cover for their bigotry.
This is obvious seeing many eatshellfish and wear more than two types of fabric.

a reply to: mOjOm

No. This isn't about control over People Behaviors or their Morality. It's about the regulation of Business Practices. Businesses are subject to certain laws and regulations even when people aren't. When a person is acting as an agent of a business they are then also subject to the laws and regulations of said business as well. There is a separation of the two.

That's an empty distinction. Business is made up of people. This is a fight between authoritarians and libertarians, plain and simple.

a reply to: LewsTherinThelamon

If you use law to force people to behave the way you want them to behave--just like the people in Indiana--then you are a fascist.

There are only fascists and anarchists.

ROFL and you're the one who said I have no reading comprehension. Please before you make yourself look silly go read up on fascism.

originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: LewsTherinThelamon

No. This isn't about control over People Behaviors or their Morality. It's about the regulation of Business Practices. Businesses are subject to certain laws and regulations even when people aren't. When a person is acting as an agent of a business they are then also subject to the laws and regulations of said business as well. There is a separation of the two.

Honestly, I don't even understand why there is an argument.

Secular government. Secular government business license. "Brick and Mortar" secular government taxed property.

Unless maybe you're selling oranges off your private land or in the parking lot of your church.

Also, currently, does not apply to an on-line business (as far as I know).

a reply to: nenothtu

First, you'll have to define what you mean by "equality". When you tell someone else how to run their life, is it not "equality" for them to tell you how to run your own as well? If you tell them what they are going to do and that they are going to like it, is it not "equality" for them to have the same privilege towards you?

I should be able to go in a store and buy the products they sell and not worry about being refused because of who I am.

By opening a business, you open to the public.

originally posted by: LewsTherinThelamon

That's an empty distinction. Business is made up of people. This is a fight between authoritarians and libertarians, plain and simple.

Why is it empty??? Because it ruins your argument???

Ya, so businesses are made up of people, so what??? So are Governments, Teams and Universities and yet they all must still abide by the rules set for each one of those establishments. Same goes for Businesses.

Obviously it's not as plain and simple as you want it to be.

a reply to: Deaf Alien

I am going to give you one example. If a person drives through one of those communities that discriminate and breaks down there. He is refused service because of who is he and the nearest service is hours away.

And why do we need the law to stop this from happening?

If someone doesn't want to work on his car, they don't have to.

a reply to: LewsTherinThelamon

If someone doesn't want to work on his car, they don't have to.

Well ok if you enjoy walking late at night especially during winter. Whatever floats your boat.

originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: nenothtu

Religious Freedom doesn't give the Religious the Freedom to do anything they want.

Correct - it only gives them that freedom in matters of exercising their religion. "Anything they want" could cover a whole lot of territory not involving religion.

If it did we'd have Multiple partner marriage for Mormons.

What is the problem with that? You do know it's coming, once the floodgates have opened, right? I have no problem with it at all - their lives are not mine to run. After all, I'm all for gay marriage on legal grounds, why would I not be for multiple marriages on religious grounds?

Legal Beheadings for Islam.

No - beheadings fall under Shari'a, which is law and culture, not religion. Freedom to exercise one's religion does not include legal freedoms of a non-religious nature. We are still under US law, not shari'a law. If we were under shari'a law, this discussion would not be happening at all.

Public stoning for Christians

Can you give me an example of Christians conducting a stoning, please?

and who knows what for Scientologists. Just to name a few examples.

yes indeed - Who DOES know what for Scientologists? maybe they'll have to weigh in on that and specify what their religion requires...

a reply to: LewsTherinThelamon

Cause # like that can get people killed, raped or worse.

originally posted by: Annee

Reminds me (kinda left field) the Christian baker in CO (I think) who refused to do gay weddings, but did dog weddings, divorce cakes, etc. He kinda stuck his "pastry" foot in that one.

Yeah, that was a boneheaded thing to do - the instant he did a "divorce cake", he lost all footing to claim that he couldn't do a "gay wedding cake" because he was a Christian. I don't know of any prohibitions their bible has on dog weddings, but both divorce and gay marriage are things they can't legitimately participate in - if they do one, then they lose religious authority to deny the other.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: LewsTherinThelamon

If you use law to force people to behave the way you want them to behave--just like the people in Indiana--then you are a fascist.

There are only fascists and anarchists.

ROFL and you're the one who said I have no reading comprehension. Please before you make yourself look silly go read up on fascism.

All law is, by it's nature, authoritarian.

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: LewsTherinThelamon

Cause # like that can get people killed, raped or worse.

Lol, ok.

Because slippery slopes.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: nenothtu

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: LewsTherinThelamon

The US is not a feudalist monarchy. We recognize the natural rights of humans, which includes commerce and the right to engage in trade.

Could you please provide factual documentation on that.

How much factual documentation on it are you willing to read?

Just a link I could read would be fine.

I realize we live in an "instant society" these days, but a single link will not cover it - you have to be willing to read a good deal more than that, which is why I asked how much you were willing to read. It's a waste of time to put it all together if no one is going to read it.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: LewsTherinThelamon

If someone doesn't want to work on his car, they don't have to.

Well ok if you enjoy walking late at night especially during winter. Whatever floats your boat.

Most fascists think they are the defenders of mankind. It's a common failing amongst authoritarians.