Sumerian Calculations of Inter-Stellar Distances.

It's well enough known that the Sumerian Goddess Nisaba was held to hold a Lapis Lazuli tablet upon which was the schematic of the Heavens, that through her observations of movements in time and space she could make predictive forecasts, that architectural formulations could reflect the greater pattern seen in the skies, but perhaps less well known that the scribal devotees' of Nisaba had a go at this themselves on their own tablets, the measurement of inter-stellar distances;

Another late second-millennium problem,HS 245 from Nippur,is known in two further versions from Nineveh,the seventh-century BCE capital of Assyria ].It uses the measurement of distances between a group of stars which rise heliacally in sequence as a pretext for exploring division by sexagesimally irregular numbers.

I summed 19 from the moon to the Pleiades, 17 from the Pleiades to Orion, 14 from Orion to the Arrow, 11 from the Arrow to the Bow, 9 from the Bow to the Yoke,7 from the Yoke to Scorpio, 4 from Scorpio to Anta-gub, so that it was 2 sixties leagues. How far is a god above (another) god? You, when you proceed: sum 19, 17, 14, 13, 11, 9, 7, (and) 4, so that you will see 1 21.

Of course these distance ratios are derived from Earth based relative observation perspective, but even so they indicate the scribal interest in the configuration of the Heavens as containing numeric ratio in terms of pattern and order, it also demonstrates their readiness to ascribe Gods numeric values, the most common version of this having 60 - Anu, 50 -Enlil, 40 - Ea/Enki, 30 - Nanna/Suen, 20 - Utu/Shamash, 15 - Inanna/Ishtar, 10 - Ishkur/Adad, were the sum total is 225 or 15 squared.



As i suggested this could vary and from this excellent paper on Mesopotamian Mathematics. there is also an example from Late period Uruk were [1] Anum [2] Antum [3] Enlil [4] Ea [5] Sîn [6] Enk i[7] The Seven [8] The Igigi [9] The Anunaki [10] Bel [20] Shamash [30] Sîn [40] Ea [50] Enlil, a slightly different and in some ways odd take on things, but anyway often Deities names could be simply substituted by their symbolic number and often on seals their symbolic number is represented by dots as units on ten, amusingly Sitchin stated this represented their rank in the Anunnaki space academy command system...

Numbers indicate Gods on seals



One can find examples then were the sacred numbers of the Gods are appearing in scribal exercises with regards to an idealized city, a Sumerian version of Atlantis if you like;

A city. I encircled it with a circle of sixty(rods). It projected 5 on each side and then I builta moat. The depth was 6. I took away a volume of 10730. 5 on each side. Above the moat I built a dyke. That dyke sloped 1 cubit in 1 cubit.

What are the base, top, and height?And what is the circle of the dyke?

You: as the circle is sixty, what is the dividing line? Takeaway a third part of sixty, the circle. You will see 20. The dividing line is 20. Double 5, the border.You will see 10. Add 10 to 20, the dividing line.You will see 30.

The obsession with measure and proportion as the finest achievement of the scribal arts was always there for the Sumerians, dating back at least to the 4th millenium BC, indeed the earliest recorded systems were the most complex;

The accountants of late fourth-millennium Uruk used at least twelve different metrological systems, depending on what they were measuring or counting. For instance,when counting discrete objects,their notation distinguished between the living and the dead,and between fish and cheese.However,identical symbols were used in different systems with different meanings.

So generally it is this attitude that i find most interesting, this veneration of the ways of Nisaba which in symbolic terms at least was understood to date back to the first time of cultivation, The Age of Virgo thousands of years previously, the belief that all was quantifiable and according to pattern including the Heavens.

Nisaba, the woman radiant with joy, the true woman, the scribe, the lady who knows everything, guides your fingers on the clay: she makes them put beautiful wedges on the tablets and adorns them with a golden stylus. Nisaba generously bestowed upon you the measuring rod, the surveyor’s gleaming line, the yardstick, and the tablets which confer wisdom

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Op does this in you opinion also coincide with the use of "sacred geometry" in the building of many of the churches structures?

In essence, do you believe this is still being used today?

Also does this also follow the golden mean?

It seems as though all things are connected through math at some level, so I am curious if these all overlap.

a reply to: johnwick

Yes certainly, and the question will always be when did that begin and why, my own understanding is that one should look to the start of the Neolithic period some 13,000 years ago, that this was closely related to the first cultivation of grain as reflected in the later Sumerian Goddess Nisaba that was responsible for every aspect of accounting and measure.

In essence it's about understanding the keys to nature in terms of looking at the patterns of the greater objective whole, even to the extent of measuring the Heavens, or indeed as was the genius of the Greeks looking inward with regards to understanding natural science, so their approach can be understood, it's a question of what motivated and inspired the scribal traditions, was there an actual Nisaba of sorts that showed up and did indeed bear a Lapis Lazuli tablet on which were mapped out the entire Heavens, and indicated that this was something we should also strive for and could be attained as long as we attended to our studies, to bring us to were we are today...?

a reply to: Kantzveldt

I am, admittedly, the President of the "Lowest I.Q. on ATS " club. I couldn't get passed the first sentence. I did catch a typo, though! Mathematics is misspelled...or not??

Good thread for those who could understand it.

a reply to: Ultralight

It was i'm a very careless scribe sometimes so Nisaba be praised for the correction...

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: johnwick

Yes certainly, and the question will always be when did that begin and why, my own understanding is that one should look to the start of the Neolithic period some 13,000 years ago, that this was closely related to the first cultivation of grain as reflected in the later Sumerian Goddess Nisaba that was responsible for every aspect of accounting and measure.

In essence it's about understanding the keys to nature in terms of looking at the patterns of the greater objective whole, even to the extent of measuring the Heavens, or indeed as was the genius of the Greeks looking inward with regards to understanding natural science, so their approach can be understood, it's a question of what motivated and inspired the scribal traditions, was there an actual Nisaba of sorts that showed up and did indeed bear a Lapis Lazuli tablet on which were mapped out the entire Heavens, and indicated that this was something we should also strive for and could be attained as long as we attended to our studies, to bring us to were we are today...?

I guess though it shouldn't be a surprise.

As all life itself follows the golden mean, it is the shape of a snail and or sea shell, it is the proportion of the bones in your body relative to the other bones.

If there isn't some over lying context that we fail to perceive because it is too big or we think too small, then what could it be?

Is it just the best proportions nature can achieve so it is used?

Like a bubble is round because it is the most efficient shape to distribute its energy against the forces acting on it?

Or like the reason a cell has to be so small, because the volume of a sphere or circle increases faster than its surface area. So to feed its volume it has to be small to have enough surface area?

This is my version of religion.

I do not folliw the main religions from lack of proof.

But things like this that permeate the entire universe at all scales tells me there is some overriding force or maybe even an intelligence that planned it all out.

The symmetry is too perfect and sublime to think otherwise.

Just as atoms at the atomic scale look just like solar systems at the macro scale and galaxies at the galactic scale.

These are the mysteries that plague my existence, if there isn't a God or gods, then who or what devised this?

originally posted by: Ultralight
a reply to: Kantzveldt

I am, admittedly, the President of the "Lowest I.Q. on ATS " club. I couldn't get passed the first sentence. I did catch a typo, though! Mathematics is misspelled...or not??

Good thread for those who could understand it.

I have seen many very intelligent posts by you.

You sell yourself short Sir!!!

You do us all disservice by portraying yourself as lesser when you are in fact greater.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

...the Sumerian Goddess Nisaba was held to hold a Lapis Lazuli tablet upon which was the schematic of the Heavens, that through her observations of movements in time and space she could make predictive forecasts, that architectural formulations could reflect the greater pattern seen in the skies, but perhaps less well known that the scribal devotees' of Nisaba had a go at this themselves on their own tablets, the measurement of inter-stellar distances;

Hmmm...iridescent blue tablet eh? Could almost be a description of a blue screen on an electronic tablet, with an astronomy programme on it.

a reply to: johnwick

Thank you for your kind words. I am humble enough to know when I am out of my league in a thread as was the case here.

FYI....I am not a sir!

originally posted by: Ultralight
a reply to: johnwick

Thank you for your kind words. I am humble enough to know when I am out of my league in a thread as was the case here.

FYI....I am not a sir!

Nor am I, I work for a living.

My culture doesn't acknowledge "Sir" as a hereditary or given title.

It is an earned through respect, and not required.

That was a compliment of the highest order from a very uncomplimentary culture.

We mostly just fight argue and call each other derogatory words.

a reply to: MysterX

Sort of does sound like a modern tablet.

a reply to: johnwick

Worth bearing in mind that the one's doing the mathematical exercises were the same one's writing up the religion and giving the Gods numeric coding, like everything else they looked at religion in terms of it's function in the development of civilization, factored it in, all part of the plan and a good one at that, eventually it all comes down to pure reason.

According to the Sumerians themselves their scribal tradition was the legacy of the Apkallu, they claimed descent from them, so of this Earth but not quite.

a reply to: johnwick

My reply was merely an attempt to let you know I am female. Obviously my words were ill scripted. My apologies.

I respect you as well.

originally posted by: MysterX
Hmmm...iridescent blue tablet eh? Could almost be a description of a blue screen on an electronic tablet, with an astronomy programme on it.

Almost. If one chooses to ignore the fact that lapis lazuli is a type of stone, not a digital screen, and there was no such thing as tablets or computer programs at the time, and wouldn't be until several millenia later....But hey, why should pesky little things like facts get in the way of fantasy?

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Kantzveldt; you are amazing, and a gift to this site you chose to pour and share your intimate research on ancient civilizations, for the members to better understand our ancestors.

Your threads, have always been of my favorites (I'm a long time lurker)! In depth, written up like a professional, and always informative with evidence.
So thank you Kantzveldt, for continuing to share your research and knowledge of our great past

As for the topic at hand; I have little input, just time to digest and learn this mental food...

Be well friend

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Excellent thread! This sort of thing keeps me coming back to ATS. Good read, thanks for putting together in a way that even I (with my.. shall we say, basic.. grasp of math) can understand.

a reply to: Ultralight

Believe me when I tell you, as somebody whose been around ATS for a long time, there are people here who dumber than you could ever hope to be by orders of magnitude. Don't sell yourself short!

a reply to: johnwick

If a sky full of stars look down into a mirror....

a reply to: AdmireTheDistance

Your not really giving any credence to another persons reasonable inquiry...Facts you say? so you can say for sure that the recorders of the aforementioned werent utilizing "stylized" descriptions? I deplore people cutting down others reasonable hypothesis...as if you know anything regarding ancient Sumeria in the context of factually being there..absurd.

OP- I apologize for going of course there. Another beautiful entry in ATS' volumes of awesome information. I lean towards another posters questions regarding sacred geometry...I have acquired some minute grasp of the concept, mostly through studying "Old World Astrology" do you perhaps have a laymen's course in getting a handle on the numeric representations? If you already deposited that upon us, then I guess I have a pizza crust's comprehension of another one of your threads. Great stuff and thank you.

originally posted by: Ultralight
a reply to: Kantzveldt

I am, admittedly, the President of the "Lowest I.Q. on ATS " club. I couldn't get passed the first sentence. I did catch a typo, though! Mathematics is misspelled...or not??

Good thread for those who could understand it.

I think i`m next in office after you.
I really want to understand this thread but cant get my head round it.

Looks like a great thread OP but.....