Here We Go Again! Body cam footage Dallas PD shoot mentally ill man

originally posted by: here4this
a reply to: Xcathdra
Please read my other posts that state a round to the leg and he goes down. Situation probably resolved.

Please understand when I tell you, as a Police Officer, we are prohibited by law from warning shots or shooting to wound.

the video I provided answers the questions as to why your "theory" is impossible.

Prohibited from a non-fatal shot? I guess the police engagement rules have changed a lot over the years...a sign of the changing times. And by the way , several of my close relatives are city police officers , county sheriffs' deputies , well known attorneys , judges.....

originally posted by: here4this
Prohibited from a non-fatal shot? I guess the police engagement rules have changed a lot over the years...a sign of the changing times. And by the way , several of my close relatives are city police officers , county sheriffs' deputies , well known attorneys , judges.....

Its NOT Police Department Rules.

Its State and Federal Law, not to mention several Amendments from the Bill of Rights.

and if you ask any of them, and they know what they are talking about, they will tell you they cannot shoot to wound.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Well lets put it this way, there was a running joke when we found someone had one. Asking if they had it just to collect dust.

After a while most just passed them off to the wife, I can't think of a single one that was given by a department all I saw where purchased by the person. Not saying they could get some if they followed the red tape road and asked really nice.

originally posted by: ObjectZero
a reply to: Xcathdra

Well lets put it this way, there was a running joke when we found someone had one. Asking if they had it just to collect dust.

After a while most just passed them off to the wife, I can't think of a single one that was given by a department all I saw where purchased by the person. Not saying they could get some if they followed the red tape road and asked really nice.

I dunno.. my issue with agencies who don't use them / have them is their request for assistance on calls where it would be nice to have. Don't get me wrong I don't mind helping other agencies. What I don't like is being requested because our agency has Tasers and theirs does not.

WOW..I learned a lot reading this thread! Now I understand how the police were lawfully able to shoot and kill this lady during a traffic stop in Chicago, when she pulled a silver-plated cellphone from her purse on the front seat.

a reply to: Xcathdra

I wonder why ? I read a post earlier on shooting to wound would be a recipe for stray bullets...would not the same apply to the fatal shots? I stated about my relations earlier not due to the possibility of denying this , but to show I know some absolutely good law enforcement agents. I know they are there and in the absolute majority. Just to reiterate though , I am merely questioning the need for lethal force in certain given situations . And I as I posted before , it was not to condemn the officers' actions , but to ask a simple question. Was it necessary ? Or could there been another more peaceful resolution ?

a reply to: carewemust

Its an eye opener for civil Rights leaders as well -

Shoot or don't shoot: Police scenarios prove eye-opening for civil rights leaders

It was a split-second decision.

A distressed man with a baby in tow was pacing back and forth in a manic state and shouting incoherently. The responding police officer calmly addressed the man in an attempt to calm him down and defuse the situation, but the man suddenly pulled an object from his side and lunged toward the officer. Instinctively, the officer raised his Taser and squeezed the trigger. It turned out the man was armed with a knife, but the "officer," who was actually the firebrand African-American activist known as Quanell X, acknowledged he would have fired whether the assailant had a knife, a spoon or an empty hand.

“I didn’t even see it,” said the leader of the Houston area Black Panther Party, who was taking part in a training scenario in an attempt to understand what police officers go through during high-pressure situations. “It could have been anything in his hand, and I still would have used force to stop him.

“It all happened so fast," he added. "You don’t know what they could have in their hand.”

Quanell, a former Nation of Islam member, is one of at least two black activists to take the police training tests. Both he and Arizona activist the Rev. Jarrett Maupin came away from the experience with a newfound understanding of the pressure on police officers, not to mention a new message for black youth who come in contact with law enforcement officers.

“I walked away with a few things,” Quanell said “Many of these officers do not have adequate training and they should not be patrolling by themselves. Having backup would stop them from being skittish and firing their weapon.

“Also, we have to teach our community that, even if you disagree with the officer, do not try to litigate with them on the spot," he added. "Live to see another day. Don’t let our pride get in the way. Otherwise, you are setting yourself up.”

Click link for remainder of article.

a reply to: here4this

no its not the same.

Shooting to wound means trying to target a non critical part of an individual, usually the arms or legs, which are smaller targets and even hitting a person in those areas does not guarantee they are out of commission.

Shooting to stop the threat has the officer aiming center mass of the individual, creating a much larger target to hit.

There will always be the issue of missing a target. The goal is not to get to a deadly force situation in the first place but once there, and taking into account adrenaline and loss of fine motor skills, means officers will fall back to their level of training and not "rise to the occasion". Muscle mass memory for the gun and the largest target on the body while shooting to stop the threat.

When an officer shoots a person, they are effecting a technical seizure of that individual under the 4th amendment. Any action taken outside of departmental policy and federal or state law places the officer all by themselves with any pending litigation - civil and criminal.

We CANNOT shoot to wound.
we CAN shoot to stop the threat.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Best post do far to answer my question along with the one that stated police officers cannot shoot to wound. Thanks to both of you.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Really wouldn't know too much about having to call the locals for help or clean up. If work got messed up that bad it hurt our rep which meant I was less likely to find more work.

The only time I can think of was during a legal finger pointing match between a couple of people that had mixed up personal matter in it all.

originally posted by: here4this
a reply to: Xcathdra

Best post do far to answer my question along with the one that stated police officers cannot shoot to wound. Thanks to both of you.

You are welcome...

And thank you for taking the time to read and post and ask questions and challenge the whys and why not's. Only through open and honest dialogue back and forth can we move beyond the us verse them mentality and start making meaningful changes to the system so officer involved shootings become the exception rather than the rule.

One thing everyone must remember is that anyone and everyone police encounter are trained ninja assassins and expecting police to use anything other than deadly force to handle a situation such as this, is Hollywood make believe.

Also, your non training is equivalent to their training. It's why you might see comparisons to what others would do in a similar situation.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Killed by police has compiled almost 1100 deaths by officer in the USA in 2014
That's 3 a day. And this is by no means a comprehensive list because many local and state agencies do their best to keep these deaths from the news.

Compare that to:
Germany - 4
UK - 0

What do you think the reason for that is? Police training in America?

Also

As an officer have you received training in de-escalation, or how to deal with a mentally ill person.
You are obviously very educated on when you can use deadly force

Thanks for your contribution to my OP

a reply to: HighFive

May I suggest you check the Department of justice for yearly shooting stats, which can break it down into officer and non officer.

Law Enforcement is required by law to report crime stats to the State and we also submit those stats to the Feds. It has nothing to do with what shows up on the news.

Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS)

Federal Bureau of Investigation - Crime Stats

DOJ / FBI - Uniform Crime Reporting

Thanks for allowing me to participate.

Also do you have a link to your source for your above post?

There is about 26 cartels still active and growing in the US, in the UK and Europe there are only 20 and still not as large as the ones in the US. Asia is the only one that can give us a run for the money and that's on size. Also the 26 isn't counting any in South America only ones that can be active here on their own without outside help from another area.

originally posted by: HighFive
What do you think the reason for that is? Police training in America?

In the case of the video, clearly.

They should have had plenty of space to back off the second they saw the screwdriver, without starting to yell at him. It is a potential lethal weapon, but its cqb. There was obviously no one in any danger behind him, they didnt need to enter the house asap. They had the time to not rush it, to just talk to him while backing off.

If I lived in America I would be freaking scared just to sneeze in front of a police officer, the sudden movement would probably lead to getting shot.

a reply to: merka

No, it wouldn't.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Yup still alive here.

Some thing to fear here is the IRS, they freak everyone out here.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: HighFive

May I suggest you check the Department of justice for yearly shooting stats, which can break it down into officer and non officer.

Law Enforcement is required by law to report crime stats to the State and we also submit those stats to the Feds. It has nothing to do with what shows up on the news.


Thanks for allowing me to participate.

Also do you have a link to your source for your above post?

Hundreds of police killings are uncounted in federal stats. Wall Street Journal

Also killedbypolice.net

There is no reliable national database for keeping track of the number of people killed by police each year. The FBI tracks the number of homicides by enforcement officers, but participation is VOLUNTARY. And many agencies don't participate.

As has been noted several times, Eric Garners death will not show up in the FBI stats because the STATE of New York does not participate.

Killedbypolice.net is a citizen run org that only documents police involved homicides that made the news. They have documented over 1000, while the FBI had only 461 reported to them in 2014.