Occupotty: We can't pee

a reply to: 5thNovember

They're looking to be treated as individuals and to go about their daily lives with the rights others are afforded. The constitution discriminated by gender, and race, and was ratified for those reasons.

I don't understand what you'd define as "normal". But laws trying to segregate by physical anatomy have been historically found unconstitutional.

Your argument, that they're looking to be " better than normal people " shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the issue.

I had explained before. They're looking for freedom FROM extra legislation, extra accommodation. To be treated normally, with the same rights afforded everyone else.

As for the future. Hate and ignorance are fortunately antiquated and a society which has progressed to the point where individuals are valued as such, without being haphazardly lumped into groups, sounds great to me.

Extra rights. They're not looking for extra. They're looking to be recognized. Allowed to be who they are as individuals without someone else attempting to decide it for them. Your worldview doesn't determine the legitimacy of their personal definition of their gender. Your belief that genitals dictate gender doesn't make it truth. Just like, fortunately for you, my opinion of your intelligence doesn't make you thick

originally posted by: hearows
a reply to: twiztedjester

If nothing else, I'm certain the ATS community understands that just because something is normal doesn't make it correct. There's so much we still don't understand about the mind, and there's no reason to invalidate someone's self definition because we might not be able to understand it. I feel like many who don't understand what being transgendered means to people have never met anyone going through it. They're simply pursuing their own happiness. Each step of gender reassignment requires huge amounts of medical and psychological supervision. It's not a decision anymore than sexual orientation, and it's profoundly impactful, yet their personal struggles are consistently invalidated by claims that their situation isn't "real" or "normal". I know this community doesn't allow society to define them, so why try to force your ideas of gender on someone else. The more we learn, the more we're seeing social gender as a spectrum. Physical reality is just that, skin color, genitals, might change a few key medical factors (cervical cancer, genetic predispositions), but it doesn't define who someone is.

i do see your point but in a whole not justats is where im coming from in my true honest op who gives a crap its a waste but your very right our menality defines us much more than our genitallia

Well true but most things do dont they lol

a reply to: twiztedjester

That was honestly me long windedly agreeing with you. I mean the cost of allowing people to go about their lives as normal is $0. Funding for bathroom police!?!? Who knows what that'd cost. I figure this is where hyper fiscal conservatives and social conservatives/social liberals can all find a consensus at least. Spending that kind of money to stop people from going about their daily lives, as they're harming none, is contrary to progress.

Furthermore, I see the individual as paramount. Group rights aren't insured by the constitution, it's about the individual because the constitution protects the civil liberties of the individuals. These rights apply to those of all genders, so trans* rights shouldn't be an issue, and yet these laws are creating the issue. And then, those who aren't aware laws like these are being attempted against this group start shouting about how they appear to want to be treated as special which is the exact opposite of the ultimate goal. To be treated as the gender which they choose to present, without someone else defining it for them for some arbitrary reason.

Here in Brazil, there's finally a law that states that trans people are allowed to use the bathroom of the gender they identify with at schools and universities. Which is actually pretty awesome.

Oh, and 5thNovember?

Show me where in the constitution is states third or whatever number gender they qualify themselves as?

You might want to understand and learn what being trans means. While there are non-binary people (translation: people who do not identify as neither male or female), this is mostly about the binary trans people. So no "third gender" involved. And we don't "qualify" as anything. We identify. Since it's about gender identity.

a reply to: LukeDAP

I identify as the king of America kiss my ring, sounds just as dumb as what you said. I can identify myself as a monkey does not make it legitimate. And feelings can never be proved.

Because while this may seem like a distant issue for many, injustice for some of us is a threat to all of us. Because one day the group being targeted for this kind of policy could be one to which you do belong. The government could decide you're abnormal, make discriminatory policies against you, and unless society takes a stand to say that everyone's individual rights are important, we're leaving ourselves open to these kinds of attacks.

No matter how distant these issues are to your personal situation, laws which disregard individual rights are never OK, and it takes everyone's voice to maintain the liberties we still have.

originally posted by: hearows
a reply to: twiztedjester

That was honestly me long windedly agreeing with you. I mean the cost of allowing people to go about their lives as normal is $0. Funding for bathroom police!?!? Who knows what that'd cost. I figure this is where hyper fiscal conservatives and social conservatives/social liberals can all find a consensus at least. Spending that kind of money to stop people from going about their daily lives, as they're harming none, is contrary to progress.

Furthermore, I see the individual as paramount. Group rights aren't insured by the constitution, it's about the individual because the constitution protects the civil liberties of the individuals. These rights apply to those of all genders, so trans* rights shouldn't be an issue, and yet these laws are creating the issue. And then, those who aren't aware laws like these are being attempted against this group start shouting about how they appear to want to be treated as special which is the exact opposite of the ultimate goal. To be treated as the gender which they choose to present, without someone else defining it for them for some arbitrary reason.

i miss understood what you were saying i see it now very plain just missed it sorry lol. yeah its crap to even try such a thing yes i personally would think its crazy to see a woman stand at a urinal and pee but whats it my business other than thinking what just happend opposed to saying that shouldnt hsppen

originally posted by: hearows
Because while this may seem like a distant issue for many, injustice for some of us is a threat to all of us. Because one day the group being targeted for this kind of policy could be one to which you do belong. The government could decide you're abnormal, make discriminatory policies against you, and unless society takes a stand to say that everyone's individual rights are important, we're leaving ourselves open to these kinds of attacks.

No matter how distant these issues are to your personal situation, laws which disregard individual rights are never OK, and it takes everyone's voice to maintain the liberties we still have.

well put

a reply to: 5thNovember

Why do you care what bathroom somebody uses, honestly? It's a place to void your bladder and defecate. Does it really matter aside from getting everything in the toilet where it belongs?

a reply to: 5thNovember

If you'll be purposely thick I'm not certain I understand what you're doing on a forum who's motto is "deny ignorance". You haven't so much as attempted to educate yourself. There's quite a bit of research available and your feelings on the subject certainly aren't contributing to the discussion. My only solace is that you're a dying breed. A sample from an antiquated viewpoint which is evolving out of society. Social conservatism is going the way of the dodo and your phobic, insular, generally illiterate comments along with it. If you'd be so kind, adults are trying to speak.

originally posted by: Ksihkehe
a reply to: 5thNovember

Why do you care what bathroom somebody uses, honestly? It's a place to void your bladder and defecate. Does it really matter aside from getting everything in the toilet where it belongs?

its not us who cares its the goverment which is why we are discussing this

a reply to: Ksihkehe
explain the point of a man or woman above the door signifying which room to use oh yea, I forgot we only added that a year ago (sarcasm) so let's just go ahead and remove it, while your at it lets remove all the old stuff that got us here today because some man or woman is gay and wants a vag/penis so he can not be objectified and hated for what he believes. Because that's the answer to our problems... How come on other post you say you can't speak on certain things because you have not experienced it so what's different this time? You saying your one of those people with an identity crisis?

a reply to: 5thNovember

Once again, sexuality has nothing to do with being transgendered. Do you sincerely just not know what you're talking about and insist on adding your views into this conversation.... Which to be honest, seems like everything you believe you know about being transgendered has more to do with an unrelated fetish?

You are aware that transvestites, those who derive sexual pleasure from dressing as the opposite sex, homosexuals, who are attracted to the same sex, and transgendered folks are different things, correct. Honestly, trying to explain a basic concept to someone in a thread attempting to discuss the sociopolitical/economic impact of discriminatory legislation is a little counter productive. Why do you insist on calling people out for speaking on what they understand when you're so clearly incapable of doing the same? You're derailing this thread for no constructive purpose. Couldn't you find something a little more your speed... A coloring book, perhaps?

a reply to: hearows

The word your looking for is cross dresser, not transvestite. that's lliterally saying, "I went into the womens bathroom because I thought the men's was closed" your thoughts don't change your sex organs surgery does, and your thoughts don't justify actions, and you haven't answered my question what experience are you speaking on? I've been in a bathroom with a in process transgender and that man looked feminine went into the bathroom and stood at the stall I don't have to worry he's got the right parts, thus I said nothing and let "him" based on the parts he had continue uninterrupted, it doesn't matter what you look like or think it's about the parts you currently have plain and simple. Another conjecture is saying a butch lesbian and that is a termed coined by homosexuals some of them my friends, going into a men's bathroom because well I look like a man that makes it ok. notice how you insulting my character without knowing me. Not speaking from experience are we now? therefore your argument is just as valid as mine. But your getting mad, come at me bro? don't want people interjecti ng on your post stay off the internet. Plain and simple.

We cant just put an x or y over bathroom doors but we have developed to need a man or woman on the door but we can never decide mentally only physically what that means and those that are transgender oppose our norm but that dosenot mean they dont fit that"policy" just most wont accept it because it a physical basis but our mentality is what defines us we cant and never will put a true definition on it because its what makes us which only puts the "norm" in favor its what most can and feel is right there is no real norm

a reply to: 5thNovember

That woman. The "in process transgendered" you're referring to, generally would go by their preferred pronoun because being transgendered means a severe, extreme discomfort with their physical sex. They are their preferred gender mentally, their sex organs don't dictate their gender. So there are folks who haven't had sexual reassignment surgery, but identify as the opposite gender, and want to use the bathroom based on their psychological gender. They may not feel safe, or undergo extreme mental discomfort using the bathroom designated for their genitals. The toilets themselves are no different. It shouldn't have anything to do with what genitals they have.

I wouldn't take issue with your contribution if it was a researched opinion. Unfortunately, you're not even grasping the basest concept and you're simply propagating ignorance. I'm fairly certain this site has terms and conditions regarding these sorts of things.

A transgendered person is someone who identifies as the opposite gender and generally feels an extreme psychological pain, called gender dysphoria, regarding their biological sex. The medically accepted treatment for many with this condition is transition. It has nothing to do with the clothing they wear, although they tend to dress and wish to appear as the opposite biological sex because it's psychologically congruent. It has nothing to do with sexual preference, "butch lesbians" are not transgendered. This is an entirely separate issue. I'd be happy to explain this all to you, if it would help clarify it for you. But currently you're simply contributing to a concept you clearly misunderstand, and you're being pretty crass in the process.

a reply to: hearows

personal discomfort is not a social issue. That like rascist being mad there's another race in his town. because of what he identifies as right and wrong, at this point let's rewrite the whole legal system and dictionaries. At this point we have to rewrite separate laws pertaining to those who don't think they apply to them because of how they think. Your personal thoughts have no merit over your organs your debating mental issue and justifying them based off how you think? my god that's ignorant.

I'd rather they simply combine the two 'rooms', make more efficient use of the available added space [stalls on one side urinals on the other] and to appease those who 'require' labels, they could simply 'identify' as either a stall or a urinal -'type'

a reply to: 12m8keall2c

Haha issue solved! I would vote for you! I identify myself as a potato where's the bathroom for people who identify as vegetable?