Spirituality might work if it wasn't so stupid.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

You think a ghost leaves the body causing it to die. It's idiotic.

Obviously, the body dies for various physical reasons. However, the psyche, soul, spirit, ghost, deeper personality, whatever we want to call it, move on through various above the brain structures into higher dimensions.

Of course, science can't prove these, but if you actually experienced them, you would not really care if they could be quantified or not. The heart (beyond the physical heart) is far more intelligent about these matters than the brain-mind.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

What about someone who is perfectly healthy but dies of old age? What's the difference when someone goes to sleep and never wakes up? Where did their awareness go? Their body is still there for people to see but they are not.

a reply to: bb23108

Sounds very smart to me.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: bb23108

How can you know what someone else is feeling when they die? And how does the structure of the brain change?

When the brain stops getting fed, its cells will deteriorate and change its structure.

I don't know what someone else is feeling - I know what I feel about them when they are on their deathbed. I can tell if they are still hanging around their body or not.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

So that was the extent of your natural death argument?

Yes they are still there, but the body is no longer working. A body cannot be aware when it is deceased.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

So they are still there hearing the things around them and experiencing people touching them? Where did their awareness go upon death? What is awareness? If it is the body... the body is still there.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
Yes they are still there, but the body is no longer working. A body cannot be aware when it is deceased.

Right, the body cannot be aware, because the "higher" or more subtle aspect of the being, the deeper personality, has moved on and awareness is simply witnessing it all, if someone is that consciously awake.

And no, I am not going to try and convince you of this via the various reincarnation arguments, etc.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

What? No. The body is no longer alive. It is not working.

Do you think thirst and hunger also move on to another place with awareness?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

They're no longer present in the body are they? Do dead people still feel hunger or thirst? If not, why?

What is it that experiences hunger and thirst? If it is the body then, again, the body is still there.

DP

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

They are dead.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

So where did their memories, thoughts, and feelings go? Why aren't they experienced anymore?

If it's because they're dead... again... then what is the difference between a dead body and an alive one? If it is because the structure is different then what is the cause of that structure change? If it is death... again... then what is the difference between a dead body.............. ad infinitum.

You're not answering the question, just circling around indefinitely avoiding the implications.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Again...the body has stopped working. It is no longer living. The structure has changed enough that it can no longer support biological function. You're ignoring me and you write in nothing but questions because of the implications.

Thoughts go nowhere. The proof is in yours.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Yet when someone dies they no longer see anything. Their eyes are still there in the same shape and size yet they don't see anything because they're dead. Where did the image they saw of the world go? Their unique perspective no longer exists, they as a conscious entity no longer exists. Their body is still here but THEY are not. They can no longer feel pleasure or pain, they can no longer recall memories of their past, they can no longer look forward into the future, because they are dead, their awareness is no longer tethered to their body.

What comprises the information stored on a usb device? When something is deleted from the usb and replaced with new information, does the structure of the usb change or does the information stored within it change? How can the information be saved on the usb then transferred onto a computer? What is this information comprised of? Electricity? How does electricity turn into an image on a screen?

There is information stored within a body, upon death that information is released from the body. What is that information? Is it physical? No, it is immaterial. We are that information stored in the body, not the body itself, though the body is a vessel for that information to be expressed through.

a reply to: bb23108

Two years ago we buried our father, a stroke 10 years earlier greatly influenced his quality of life.
Over time his speech improved somewhat and his memory came back, all in all, apart from one paralyzed arm and difficulty with walking it wasn't as bad as it could have been.
In the good old days he did know quite well how to use his garden hose for other purposes then peeing, so i have 2 brothers and 4 sisters.
After our mother died in 2007 we would visit him every day to clean, to prepare food and to keep him company.
In the last three years of his life his memory deteriorated, but he had good moments from time to time.
On one of those moments he asked me, what will happen with my memories when i die? i was about to ask him, "where are the memories you have lost?" but then i stopped myself and played along.
He was so convinced that he would see my mother again, that somehow the 'me' lives on when the body dies.
I just comforted him with the belief they would be together again, on the stone of their grave is written, together forever.
Some of my sisters have the same belief, but i've undergone a moment of clarity, in which it became clear that the 'me' is simply false.
In fact, it is the root of suffering, the barrier between the actual what is, and a reality which is created by thought.
The 'me' is a construct of thought, the me opposed to others, through thought a whole new reality is created in which the 'me' is measuring itself with others, is competing with others, busy with its own little things and personal success, personal interests, his own wellbeing and not caring about others.
Our whole way of life is based on that, we are brought up with a separated attitude towards each other.
Personal, group, tribe, national, united in an ideal or organized belief, etnical, color, race, hierachical structure, a human created reality in which conflicts are a certainty and thus violence.
When this fact became clear to me, it was the end of the 'me' and all the pain and suffering which it had caused.
So its unnecessary to say that i see no truth in the belief that a 'me' somehow lives on, it doesn't.

The funny thing is, i'm here, the end of the 'me' is not the end of me as an individual, the fragmented false has simply fallen away, therefore there is clarity and order.
It's like a permanent meditative state, listening while i'm quietly fulfilling my daily obligations in total freedom.

I'm not the body, the body is a part of me through wich i express myself and through which i am aware of what is.
The body is just as genuinely part of me as the psyche or spirit, like death is just as an actual part of physical life as birth.

If this body dies it is the end of the individual earthling, but life goes on.
The individual will live on in the smile of its children, regeneration is a fact.

I would even go so far to say that there is no death, there is simply nothing that dies, no 'me', the body simply transforms into another substance, or heat when burned.

All materialist in general want some kind of proof because they are so blinded by science or body/mind that they forget that life itself is proof of spirit. Bodies are just build from various material which all are available and provided by our mother earth. But what makes us thick thack?

We are spiritual beings having human experience. Want proof of that?
No amount of words and statements made by spiritual folks will change you. Only your own experience will! Are you willing to put some work into it? Do you really want to know the truth or will you continue to be lost in thoughts for the rest of your life?

You can only prove it to yourself and there is no other way! We have many paths you can tread on for that realization.
The easiest and safest would probably be the dream path.

We are all dreaming when sleeping and depending of our awareness we can forget or remember our dreams. But we can learn to conquer dreams and have lucid dreams with many different techniques described on the net. Try earnestly and be patient and sooner or later you will have an experience of conscious astral travel. And bricks will be shat!

Millions of people who are having these experiences are not crazy, this is real and everyone can do it! It is our natural ability but you will have to try it yourself and work for it and let it happen. But it won't happen by thinking but by letting go of wrong image of yourself which you have built during life.

or you know...you can try natural drugs like shrooms, D M T, etc... But don't play with that as it can be dangerous. Only take with great care and precaution!
But certainly they are forcefully breaking the limits of your perception and you are plunged into the unknown word - and that can be a terrifying experience!

a reply to: Itisnowagain

How long is now?
Now is like the space in which thoughts appear speaking about another time. Show me the 'future', show me the 'past' - show them to me now. 'Past and future' and time are just thought constructs - concepts.
Nothing can actually appear outside now because that is where the seeing happens.

How long is now ... Now can not be measured in respect of the fact ... that say we measure now as a fraction of a second ... that fraction of a second can also be divided on so on ...

The future can be predicted by observing the patterns of the past ... As such many things can be predicted ... such as a Solar Eclipse ... Of course I agree that everything is happening in the now or as it occurs ...

This is what I believe ... We all come from something ... that something we all come from comes from something etc ... but the source of that ultimate something comes from nothing ... However "Nothing" is a lack of conciousness ... a lack of intelligence ... a lack of anything ... In that way nothing has no value until it is something

a reply to: earthling42
Very well said! I agree with you that the 'me' is a false construct of the body-mind. I also agree that the sense of 'me' is not an entity - it is the moment to moment activity of contracting (separating) from our actual situation of relatedness with everyone and everything. This activity gives us a sense of identity, but it is an illusion.

However, all of this can be noticed by what is prior to all such activity and conditions - and that is our fundamental sense of being or awareness itself. Does this sense of fundamental being survive death? This must be discovered, but if you can feel that awareness has not aged at all, that will certainly be a big clue to answering that question!

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: bb23108

Then let's work with an example. How is Michael Jackson not his body?

It is quite obvious he did the moonwalk. We know what he looked like. We know he's deceased. It seems obvious to me he is his body, and we have countless images to prove that he was. Type his name in Google images.

Again, your argument is based on the "self-evident" approach, not real proof. You assume you are the body-mind because you look in the mirror and consistently see approximately the same body-mind each day. You get feedback from other body-minds who call you by name, and this reinforces your view that you are the body-mind.

So over time, beginning as an infant, it becomes self-evident that you are the body-mind. However, this is just what body-minds do - they reinforce this false assumption out of fear, out of a need to feel they exist as a separate identity. So this "evidence" is just assumed to be the case. And it may even be considered stupid to question such an obvious matter!

Yes, we seem to be associated with a body-mind, but this does not prove we are the body-mind. Nor does consistently calling one another by name prove it either.

However, let's suppose that your body-mind sustains a terrible accident, and you lose all your limbs. Now when you look in the mirror, of course, your body-mind will go through all sorts of reactions to your tragedy. However, does your fundamental sense of being or awareness itself actually change?

If you say it does not, but that you are still the body-mind, then how much can we get rid of in terms of the body-mind for you to say you are not fundamentally the body-mind, but are simply the fundamental sense of being (awareness)? Or do you hold on to the presumption that you are the body-mind until the last piece that allows you awareness of the body-mind goes - that is, your body-mind dies?

If you say your fundamental sense of being or awareness did change, how would you suppose it did? And can it actually change or is it more the emotions and reactions to this terrible tragedy that seem to change your fundamental sense of being?

Notice in everyday life, moment to moment, if your fundamental sense of being or awareness actually changes.

a reply to: bb23108

Who or what's sense of being are we speaking about? No one's or nothing's? If no one's or nothing's, there is no sense or being. Only if there is a body is there any being or sense. The same goes with awareness. There has been no case of awareness without a body ever witnessed. point to me awareness, you would point to a body every single time.

Your're literally speaking about nothing, bb, using nonsensical terminology to force your assumptions on others. This is depraved.