NATO escalating Ukraine crisis with blatant lies, according to Germany

Yes I in the news BBC web.
they are having NATO drills in the black sea.
nothing to do with it.
people are sheep and stupid as hell.

a reply to: anticitizen

so why are you blind on one eye now?

I am not the blind one here. Time after time, Russia has created "ethnic crises" in neighboring states in order to send in armies of occupation. These mini-invasions have been so subtle that most people seem unaware of them. Did you read the list I posted above? Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Transniester? These Russian Mini-Mes are so dubious that my spell check refuses to allow them! Now Putin has tried the same stunt on a country with stronger economic and geographical ties to the West, and its blowing up in his face. Russian boys are dying so Putin can play Catherine the Great.

it's not just russia that did bad things in this crisis. it's also the west.

So far the West has not done enough. Both Russia and the United States signed the Budapest Memorandum, guaranteeing Ukraine's security and territorial integrity. Russia has flagrantly violated it, and the West has been too cowardly to enforce it.

my thread had the purpose of pointing out that NATO is not the honest peace keeping alliance some here think it is.

That's not what it appears to be about. You have deliberately twisted an article in a conservative German magazine that is supportive of Angela Merkel's policies into an attempt to show that there is no Russian aggression in Ukraine. The head of NATO, not the entire alliance, of which Germany is a charter member, has been making exaggerated claims about the size of Russian forces. Yes, this is beating the war drum, but as I have said, war is inevitable.

The West's vain attempts at "economic pressure" and "peace negotiations" have only allowed the Russian forces to further secure their territorial gains. Some of the members here have the honesty to admit that they think that this Russian imperialism is a good thing.

Unfortunately there are two very important principles at stake: first the tacit principle established by the treaty of Westphalia, that internal affairs of state are not the business of other states. It is this principle that NATO, led by France, violated in North Africa, an engagement I condemn. Russia has historically violated this principle in Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary... and more recently in Georgia, Moldova and, now, Ukraine.

The second principle, and one that has ramifications far beyond Europe, is the effectiveness of the Budapest Memorandum. If the nations who agreed to those terms do not honor them, it throws all such agreements into doubt. Japan, a potential nuclear super-power, can no longer trust that the United States will come to its aid in the event of a conflict with China. Saudi Arabia, which has the potential to purchase nuclear arms on the grey market, may doubt that the United States will support it in a war with Iran.

Inaction by NATO now may lead to nuclear war later. Putin placed his bets on a lack of "heart" from the West; Breedlove is trying to compensate. Is that why some people want to demonize him?

If all you want to do is show that NATO is as capable of ill advised aggression as Russia, you have picked the wrong situation. Point, instead, to Sarko's cynical use of NATO aggression in North Africa to appeal to his domestic political base. In fact, that is an excellent parallel to what Putin is doing in Ukraine for similar reasons.

a reply to: DJW001

Any reason for not answering to my post on the previous page? Would really like to hear how would you try to justify it...

So far the West has not done enough. Both Russia and the United States signed the Budapest Memorandum, guaranteeing Ukraine's security and territorial integrity. Russia has flagrantly violated it, and the West has been too cowardly to enforce it.

Actually, i think the west did enough. Their causing/sparking the civil war in Ukraine, started all of this, remember? And just because legally elected president Yanuckovych did not wanted to join NATO!

Yes, this is beating the war drum, but as I have said, war is inevitable.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you, from your safe couch in the US, want for Europe to get into a war with Russia. Sorry to disappoint you, but most Europeans do not want that, and will not allow for that to happen.

The West's vain attempts at "economic pressure" and "peace negotiations" have only allowed the Russian forces to further secure their territorial gains. Some of the members here have the honesty to admit that they think that this Russian imperialism is a good thing.

Let's rephrase this.
The US vain attempts at/with( not sure ) "economic pressure" and German/France( Europe ) peace negotitations, which once again shows that the Europeans have got no intention in going to a war with Russia, and that the only one wishing for it is the US and it's citizens( not all, just a couple of them along side your government ).

Hey, if you ask me, i would accept Russian imperialism anytime over your democracy. But, it's too late for my country, we already got your democracy. Never been worst, so i doubt the Russian imperialism can be any worst.

Inaction by NATO now may lead to nuclear war later. Putin placed his bets on a lack of "heart" from the West; Breedlove is trying to compensate. Is that why some people want to demonize him?

"inaction" by NATO and the US?!?!?!?!?!?!?! WHAT?!
You guys alone completely ruined lives of many MILLIONS innocent people in so many past wars. You guys brought western democracy to many other countries by totally ruining them( but hey, at least they have democracy now ), you created ISIS, you fund terrorists that fight legally elected governments...If the WW3 breaks out, the only ones to blame for it, is NATO and the US. NO ONE ELSE.

No matter how hard you try to paint Russia as an evil state like your own country, the fact is, Russia is nowhere near it. If they all of the sudden start following the path that your country created it, then maybe, in a hundred years, they will be at the level of the US and NATO!

It's not that i love Russia, i just hate western foreign policy and their double standards. I hate their hypocrisy. If it was any other country in Russia's position right now, i'd defend it. I defended Libya, Iraq, Vietnam, my own country..

a reply to: DJW001

#1: Exactly what Nikola014 said!

#2: Der Spiegel was pretty much anti Putin before regarding the Ukraine crisis.

#3: You sound as if Russia would suddenly conquer all of Europe if we don't stop them now, preferably with full force. You obviously don't know much of the European-Russian relation which was pretty good befor the west messed around in Ukraine. Russia needs Europe and Europe needs Russia (economically). But it seems as if the two are getting divided by USA.

#4: Do you really believe Russia would have done the same it is doing now if the west didn't mess around in Ukraine's politics? The West started this crisis and isn't contributing to peace at all (see general Breedlove and other hawks) whereas Russia remains pretty calm (thank god!).

#5: Mess around in USA's backyard and you get a lesson.
Mess around in Russias backyard and you get a lesson.
Mess around in Chinas backyard and you get a lesson.

We weren't following this law so here's the quittance.

a reply to: anticitizen

#1: Exactly what Nikola014 said!

Do you agree with him about Fascism being preferable to Democracy?

#2: Der Spiegel was pretty much anti Putin before regarding the Ukraine crisis.

It is possible to be anti-Putin while being supportive of attempts to appease him.

#3: You sound as if Russia would suddenly conquer all of Europe if we don't stop them now, preferably with full force.

Putin does not intend to conquer Europe militarily; that would be too dangerous. Instead, he intends to undermine the integrity of the European Union by encouraging states like Greece to withdraw and traditional enemies like France and Germany to fall out. Compared to the EU, the Russian Federation is a shabby regional power. Compared to France, England and Germany standing singly, it is once again a potential global superpower.

You obviously don't know much of the European-Russian relation which was pretty good befor the west messed around in Ukraine. Russia needs Europe and Europe needs Russia (economically). But it seems as if the two are getting divided by USA.

Wrong, I understand their economic interdependence very well; that is why Putin has been able to get European politicians to placate, rather than confront him.

#4: Do you really believe Russia would have done the same it is doing now if the west didn't mess around in Ukraine's politics? The West started this crisis and isn't contributing to peace at all (see general Breedlove and other hawks) whereas Russia remains pretty calm (thank god!).

Wow. You have bought into Moscow's fiction so whole-heartedly that it will be impossible to reason with you. Russia can afford to remain calm: they have acquired prime real estate in Crimea without firing a shot, and once their proxy troops stop killing Ukrainians, they'll probably get away with adding Donbass to their "Federation."

#5: Mess around in USA's backyard and you get a lesson.
Mess around in Russias backyard and you get a lesson.
Mess around in Chinas backyard and you get a lesson.

We weren't following this law so here's the quittance.

Again, there is no point in discussing things if you believe this.

a reply to: Nikola014

Any reason for not answering to my post on the previous page? Would really like to hear how would you try to justify it...

Yes, it will require an entirely new thread. I'll start it in the morning when I'm fresh.

a reply to: Nikola014

So, I hope this proves that Putin is not waging a war against Europe, because that's simply not true.

Wrong.

originally posted by: DJW001


Again, there is no point in discussing things if you believe this.

Don't tell me to shut up in my thread.

Btw, your signature
"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
doesn't fit your behaviour.

originally posted by: anticitizen

originally posted by: DJW001


Again, there is no point in discussing things if you believe this.

Don't tell me to shut up in my thread.

Btw, your signature
"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
doesn't fit your behaviour.

I did not tell you to "shut up," I expressed my doubts that you were willing to consider anything I have to say with an open mind. Very big difference. You are welcome to say whatever you want; hopefully you will have something constructive to say.