NATO escalating Ukraine crisis with blatant lies, according to Germany

The title of this thread is a lie. Der Spiegel does not say:"NATO escalating Ukraine crisis with blatant lies." This distortion is in violation of T&C. Der Spiegel is the most "mainstream" of the European mainstream media, and the tenor of the article is not about whether or not Russian troops are in Ukraine. In fact, as far as that goes, here are the most important sentences from the article:

To be sure, neither Berlin's Russia experts nor BND intelligence analysts doubt that Moscow is supporting the pro-Russian separatists. The BND even has proof of such support.

But it is the tone of Breedlove's announcements that makes Berlin uneasy.

www.spiegel.de... [Emphasis mine. --DJW001]

This article is about the politics of dealing with the Russian invasion, not its materiality.

originally posted by: victor7
It is highly likely that Germany would walk out of the NATO alliance if it pushes for war with Russia. Germans know the actual horrors of war. Americans mostly know it from the cable news clips.

US nose out of many places in the world would bring immediate peace and long lasting solutions to the problems.

You realize that Russia is the one annexing Crimea right? Not the US? As you say, Germans "know the actual horrors of war," so they should also be able to recognize that sort of aggression as something that isn't peaceful or a lasting solution.

The Germans should also know all too well that appeasement is not going to stop a man bent on imperial conquest. a reply to: Pants3204

originally posted by: DJW001
The Germans should also know all too well that appeasement is not going to stop a man bent on imperial conquest. a reply to: Pants3204

Now you are delving into the realms of the delusional and deranged!

About that imperial conquest you talk about, how many countries does Russia have military bases and spy centres in? How many troops, aircraft, warships does Russia have stationed overseas? How many wars has Russia started and financed in the last couple of decades?
When compared to the US, the Russians appear very reasonable and peace loving! They seem to have been opting for trade and negotiation to get what they want, whereas the US model is destabilization, coups and death on a large scale.

Appeasement, as you put it, is one of those retarded slurs, right up with anti-semite and racist, used in order to stifle debate and paint those not willing to engage in mass death as somehow being weak.
Quite the opposite is true, as it takes a brave person to make a stand against those who would push us all to destruction. More so when those pushing for bloodshed are far removed from where the action will take place. That, of course, just shows the true cowardice of the war hawks, who never seem to have the guts to actually go fight themselves, but will happily order others to do so and don't care one bit how many don't come home or are maimed for life, simply to stoke some psychopaths self importance and make the bankers richer.

a reply to: Britguy

About that imperial conquest you talk about, how many countries does Russia have military bases and spy centres in?

It has military bases in Armenia, Belarus, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgystan, Transnistria, Syria, Tajikistan, Ukraine (Crimea is still legally Ukraine, sorry), Viet Nam. It has been kicked out of several others. Just because it has neither the quantity nor quality of American power projection, does not mean it does not have the desire. Of course, Russia has spies everywhere.

How many troops, aircraft, warships does Russia have stationed overseas?

5,000 in Armenia, 1,500 in Belarus, 3,500 occupying Abkhazia (legally Georgia), 4,00 in South Ossetia (legally Georgia), 1,500 occupying Transnistria (legally Moldova), 7,500 legally in Tajikistan, and over 26,000 in Crimea. The number of Russian troops actrvely fighting in Ukraine is unknown. There are also rumors of bases in Iran, Cuba and Venezuela, but I won't count secret bases if you won't.

How many wars has Russia started and financed in the last couple of decades?

In addition to two nearly genocidal wars in Chechniya, just run down the list of bases: Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine. Isn't that enough for one puny former superpower?

When compared to the US, the Russians appear very reasonable and peace loving!

The Russians, yes, Vladimir Putin, no.

They seem to have been opting for trade and negotiation to get what they want, whereas the US model is destabilization, coups and death on a large scale.

Funny... whenever a country starts to negotiate a trade treaty that favors America or Europe over Russia, there is destabilization, attempted coups and death on a large scale. The message is clear: if you do business with the West, Russia will ruin you.

Appeasement, as you put it, is one of those retarded slurs, right up with anti-semite and racist, used in order to stifle debate and paint those not willing to engage in mass death as somehow being weak.

Appeasement is not a slur, and it is very cheap of you comparing it to anti-semitism. If anything, your anti-american ranting is more akin to it. Angela Merkel foolishly believes that if she lets Putin keep Crimea, he will leave the rest of Ukraine (and the rest of its former SSRs and satellites alone.) History proves that this will never settle things. Crimea is useless without a viable overland route to supply it. Simple geography dictates that Putin must have all of Ukraine east of the Dnieper if Crimea is to be viable.

Quite the opposite is true, as it takes a brave person to make a stand against those who would push us all to destruction.

Exactly, which is why she must find the courage to stand up against Putin.

More so when those pushing for bloodshed are far removed from where the action will take place.

Putin is sending Russians to their death from his luxurious palaces.

That, of course, just shows the true cowardice of the war hawks, who never seem to have the guts to actually go fight themselves, but will happily order others to do so and don't care one bit how many don't come home or are maimed for life, simply to stoke some psychopaths self importance and make the bankers richer.

We are in complete agreement then! Vladimir Putin is a cowardly psychopath.

if there was no crisis nato would have no purpose! it all makes sense now!

a reply to: Britguy

Don't you love it when non propagandaresistant people accuse russia of things the US have been doing for centuries now?
Wonder if people like DJW001 were as upset as US invaded Iraq, destroyed Lybia or decided to arm rebels and drop bombs in Syria.
I guess not.

originally posted by: anticitizen
a reply to: Britguy

Don't you love it when non propagandaresistant people accuse russia of things the US have been doing for centuries now?
Wonder if people like DJW001 were as upset as US invaded Iraq, destroyed Lybia or decided to arm rebels and drop bombs in Syria.
I guess not.

YES! I marched against the US invading Iraq! Just because the US does something evil doesn't mean Russia can be evil too. (You don't believe me, check my posting history.)

a reply to: anticitizen

Wonder if people like DJW001 were as upset as US invaded Iraq, destroyed Lybia or decided to arm rebels and drop bombs in Syria.

Were/Are you?

originally posted by: JourneymanWelder
if there was no crisis nato would have no purpose! it all makes sense now!

If there were no crisis, Russia could not annex its old territories without being too obvious.

Oh hey look. This threads filled with huge epenises. Not a single person on these boards have any idea what's going on and most spew word vomit from crap sources. Until a Ukrainian comes on these boards, from the ground, no one can be taken seriously.

originally posted by: anticitizen
a reply to: Britguy

Don't you love it when non propagandaresistant people accuse russia of things the US have been doing for centuries now?
Wonder if people like DJW001 were as upset as US invaded Iraq, destroyed Lybia or decided to arm rebels and drop bombs in Syria.
I guess not.

Actually alot of us were upset over the SECOND ATTACK into Iraq. ALso the UN and NATO authorized Lybia and even helped do it. Now giving guns to the syrians was a total mistake i agree.

I dislike all governments that are self interested. That includes Russia.

ALso the UN and NATO authorized Lybia and even helped do it.

How are things in Libya nowadays? After you guys brought western democracy to them?

I dislike all governments that are self interested. That includes Russia.

I actually think that the Russians have something very very rare. A government that actually works for their country interests.

If there were no crisis, Russia could not annex its old territories without being too obvious.

Hm, but what territories? You mean territory?

Were/Are you?

'Murica!
I actually was pretty upset, because unlike many others here, I don't have double standards!

originally posted by: Flesh699
Oh hey look. This threads filled with huge epenises. Not a single person on these boards have any idea what's going on and most spew word vomit from crap sources. Until a Ukrainian comes on these boards, from the ground, no one can be taken seriously.

We could discuss what this article says on its own merits, as I attempted to do. European politicians are leery of military confrontation with Putin's Russia; they have stronger trading ties with Russia and do not want to jeopardize them further. Consequently, any attempt by Breedlove to create a sense of urgency gets interpreted by them as saber rattling and dangerous peace threatening exaggerations.

They are blind to the fact that Putin is already waging war against the EU; he is supporting ultra-nationalist groups, many of which are shamelessly fascist or neo-Nazi, in an attempt to blow it apart from within. He is doing to Europe what he accuses the US of doing elsewhere.

Note that the BND (German CIA) does not deny that there are Russian troops in Eastern Ukraine; it actually claims to have positive evidence of their presence. They simply do not believe that the numbers are as great as Breedlove claims.

Personally, I agree with them; Breedlove is trying to scare them into acting so that the United States does not need to act itself. Nevertheless, appeasement is definitely not the route to take.

a reply to: Nikola014

Hm, but what territories? You mean territory?

Crisis in Georgia = Abkhazia & South Ossetia. Crisis in Moldova = Transniestria. Crisis in Ukraine = Crimea Oblast and future Donbass Oblast. The least you can do is applaud your hero's brilliant strategy.

a reply to: DJW001

They are blind to the fact that Putin is already waging war against the EU; he is supporting ultra-nationalist groups, many of which are shamelessly fascist or neo-Nazi, in an attempt to blow it apart from within. He is doing to Europe what he accuses the US of doing elsewhere

But this is not true.
I don't understand why's it this hard for you to acknowledge the fact that it's actually NATO that's been expanding their basses towards Russia, after the dissolution of the warsaw pact. Did you maybe think Russia will allow for NATO and the US to have military bases on their borders? I mean, what was Cuban Crisis then all about?

You obviously have a problem with this, but you have to grasp the fact that Russia will not allow for Ukraine to join NATO, nor to have NATO bases so close to their borders.

So, I hope this proves that Putin is not waging a war against Europe, because that's simply not true.

a reply to: Nikola014

How are things in Libya nowadays? After you guys brought western democracy to them?

They only "Introduced" Democracy.

The rest is up to the Citizens of Libya.

a reply to: xuenchen

Of course, my bad!

After NATO and the US bombed it for three months, completely tear it apart, made such collateral damage, overthrow the evil Gaddafi, and then, they left it that way for the people of Libya to deal with it!

How convenient.

Such off-topic!

originally posted by: Nikola014

ALso the UN and NATO authorized Lybia and even helped do it.

How are things in Libya nowadays? After you guys brought western democracy to them?

I dislike all governments that are self interested. That includes Russia.

I actually think that the Russians have something very very rare. A government that actually works for their country interests.

If there were no crisis, Russia could not annex its old territories without being too obvious.

Hm, but what territories? You mean territory?

Were/Are you?

'Murica!
I actually was pretty upset, because unlike many others here, I don't have double standards!

All countries who work for their self interest are selfish. Russia working for its interest IS self interested. Therefore ALL COUNTRIES ARE SELFISH. (caps for emphasis alone)

ALso ISnt Russia part of the UN? they didnt VETO the action that was taken in lybia either.

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: anticitizen
a reply to: Britguy

Don't you love it when non propagandaresistant people accuse russia of things the US have been doing for centuries now?
Wonder if people like DJW001 were as upset as US invaded Iraq, destroyed Lybia or decided to arm rebels and drop bombs in Syria.
I guess not.

YES! I marched against the US invading Iraq! Just because the US does something evil doesn't mean Russia can be evil too. (You don't believe me, check my posting history.)

so why are you blind on one eye now?
it's not just russia that did bad things in this crisis. it's also the west.
my thread had the purpose of pointing out that NATO is not the honest peace keeping alliance some here think it is.

personally, i don't trust either side. i'm with the poor people that just want to live and also would like to have some wealth just like their warmongering elite.