Christian University Chaplain Fired after Preaching Peace Over War

originally posted by: ketsuko

Part of the reason this man was able to preach what he preached is because a good many people over the years, many of them Christian, defended this country with their lives. Some of those people fought and died to establish it in the first place.

Had those people not been willing to take up arms, things would be very different and it is arguable whether or what type of pulpit this man would have had.

All of the wars you are referring to were fabricated manipulations of the populace for the benefit and profit of the elite few in control. Those who participated were either conscripted or brainwashed into killing, not at the behest of their God, but under orders from the state. This one is probably for another thread, although there are already numerous expositions of this all over ATS.

This is exactly the kind of nationalistic indoctrination that plagues American Christianity.

Some may say that there is no excuse for a Christian to ever fight for themselves and be Christian, but if that were true, them God would never had ordered the Israelites to take up arms in their own defense so many times either, even to the point of aggression.

God did not order the invasion of Panama. God did not order the invasion of Iraq. God did not order any of this nonsense.

The state did. Are you suggesting that every military endeavor the United States engages in is condoned by God?

That is frightening.

And of course, we spend so much time being told we cannot judge and to not be judgmental and I see a good deal of judgmentalism going on here starting with what came out of this man's mouth. Many of you are piling on because what he said is something you agree with. So much for a loving God who forgives ... not when it comes to this issue apparently.

How can anyone claim to follow a compassionate God while justifying violence and war?

a reply to: NthOther

God did not order the invasion of Panama. God did not order the invasion of Iraq. God did not order any of this nonsense.

by the same token you attribute more convenient miracles to his power, we may attribute such developments to his influence as well. can you prove he did not interfere?

originally posted by: TzarChasm

by the same token you attribute more convenient miracles to his power, we may attribute such developments to his influence as well. can you prove he did not interfere?

I'll rephrase that.

My God did not order those things. Someone else's may have. Touche, sir.

a reply to: NthOther


S+F


Remember Ron Paul’s anti war speech, which was initially hailed, as a return to Christian Ethics for America…or something along those lines…

Then look what happened after; he was press ganged at every turn, asked loaded questions, by various press interviewers, and taken out of context by the media…

Somebody somewhere, has a vested interest in keeping the “War Machine” going…IMO


- JC

All I can say is would jesus have joined the US armed forces and gone off to Iraq?



Would he have joined ANY armed forces?



NO

So those who call themselfs christians should not be so keen to take up arms.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: NthOther

So the Kansas City Star, which has a notable progressive bias in everything, says the guy was fired because of this sermon and everyone here leaps all over it? Typical.

For one thing, Selma is story about racism which has a narrative the country is fatigued about - whites bad, blacks good. America bad. IN a day and age where we only have to turn on the TV to get that same message yelled at us by the media every day. It's no surprise no one shelled out $20/person to see it in the theatre. I know I wouldn't.

And if I see American Sniper, it won't be because I'm addicted to war, guns, violence, etc. It will be because I tend to like the way Clint Eastwood puts a movie together. Although in all honesty, I don't imagine I'll see either.

Also, when he says that equating Christianity with patriotism? Where is that even implied by anything? It basically sounds to me like he is saying we aren't a Christian nation and shouldn't hold any loyalty to our country or even care about it. Hello ... shades of Reverand Wright.

Then he goes on to say some stuff that sounds OK, until he starts making the implication that if we want our country to stay free, we are somehow not being Christian. Doesn't he realize that if we lose our freedom, we also lose our ability to be Christian? Isn't he aware that Christians in other nations are dying, often horribly, because they don't have their freedom? That because we are willing to defend our freedom, he can stand up there and tell us we should lose our freedom because that really shows how much we love God.

Then he starts railing about persecution. For those of you who think Christians have a persecution complex ... you either want to persecute us or you didn't read the entirety of this man's sermon. HE WANTS PEOPLE TO PERSECUTE CHRISTIANS. Maybe that's why those of you reading this piece said spot one? You'd like to persecute us and load us on cattle cars?

One person said to me, but they didn’t have terrorists trying to kill them. THEY DID. THE ROMANS WERE AN OPPRESSIVE SUPER-POWER RULING OVER THEM, THEY CRUCIFIED HUNDREDS IN PUBLIC PLACES AS EXAMPLES TO THOSE WHO FELL OUT OF LINE.

Yes, he just stood up there and preached that we should all be persecuted and die.

No wonder so many of you love his sermon.

As I have said countless times before.....

There is a huge diffrence between defending yoyr freedoms and stomping round the globe bombing people and shooting # up for oil and money.


If you cant tell tne diffrence I think the west is done for.

a reply to: ketsuko

So the Kansas City Star, which has a notable progressive bias in everything, says the guy was fired because of this sermon and everyone here leaps all over it? Typical.

The guy was giving a speech about the words of Jesus in a religious university and gets fired for it? People should be leaping all over it especially Christians.

For one thing, Selma is story about racism which has a narrative the country is fatigued about - whites bad, blacks good. America bad. IN a day and age where we only have to turn on the TV to get that same message yelled at us by the media every day. It's no surprise no one shelled out $20/person to see it in the theatre. I know I wouldn't.

This part of his speech just went right over your head huh? This part just shows that people are more interested in people being murdered by a guy rather than watch a movie about the struggles of people seeking equality in America.

It basically sounds to me like he is saying we aren't a Christian nation and shouldn't hold any loyalty to our country or even care about it. Hello ... shades of Reverand Wright.

And he is right America isn't a Christian nation. Also he does say we have an obligation to protect ourselves when we are attacked.

Then he goes on to say some stuff that sounds OK, until he starts making the implication that if we want our country to stay free, we are somehow not being Christian.

And he is right. Look at all the nations we are attacking that have done nothing to America. A true follower of Christ in no way would kill someone that has done nothing to warrant being attacked.

HE WANTS PEOPLE TO PERSECUTE CHRISTIANS. Maybe that's why those of you reading this piece said spot one? You'd like to persecute us and load us on cattle cars?

You really need to stop making stuff up. The man said if you claim to be Christian then you should follow the words of Christ. These fake Christians today like the ones we have in our government that just keeps wanting America to go to war all over the world need to stop calling themselves Christians because they in no way follow the words of Jesus.

You really need to get someone to reread the speech to you at a level you can understand because it's obvious that in it's current form it's too complex for you.

originally posted by: NthOther
How can anyone claim to follow a compassionate God while justifying violence and war?

Isn't war and violence, at least of the defensive sort, justifiable?
Seems like sometimes the only options lead to more suffering and death.

originally posted by: crazyewok
All I can say is would jesus have joined the US armed forces and gone off to Iraq?
Would he have joined ANY armed forces?
NO
So those who call themselfs christians should not be so keen to take up arms.

I dunno. I rather think He would have served if He had been drafted or something. He never condemned soldiers.
Greed, arrogance, aggression, and placing hope in earthly political aims He certainly seemed to reject though. I can't very well see Him calling to invade other nations based on what they might or might not do.

Hard to make judgments based off of what Jesus would have done though...people still can't agree whether he's a socialist or a libertarian

originally posted by: StalkerSolent

Isn't war and violence, at least of the defensive sort, justifiable?

But America is not playing defense. It is on the offensive, instigating for-profit wars of preemption and manufacturing consent through propaganda and distraction.

In other words, it is lying, killing, and lying. If it only took up arms for purposes of defense, and reluctantly at that, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

The offense and the defense are totally confused with each other's roles, and that's a good way to lose the game.

a reply to: NthOther

originally posted by: NthOther
Spot on. And I think he was fired for it because the Christian establishment is in the same bed shared by the government and the corporations. That's why I put this in the religion conspiracy forum and not the general religion forum.

Yes, this does go back a few decades (since the late 1970s), when the Christian Right was courted politically to add the third leg to the Republican's stool of defense, economics, and social values.

Unfortunately, who they courted were religious extremists who favored authoritarianism and militarism.

The greatest moral error of the Moral Majority is its tendency toward a narrow, chauvinistic nationalism. ....its enthusiasm for the present military buildup is not tempered by a desire to control the arms race. It shows no concern about nuclear war and would only encourage the provocative elements in foreign policy that make nuclear war more likely.

Assessing the Concerns of the Religious Right (from 1981)

The above is well worth reading in its entirety. The author was a true prophet for his time. He warned us, but no one at the time could foresee the ability of this group to expand and the extant of the political power they would be given. Kind of like the pact the Saudis made with their religious extremists, the Wahhabists.

originally posted by: NthOther
But America is not playing defense. It is on the offensive, instigating for-profit wars of preemption and manufacturing consent through propaganda and distraction.

What? You clearly hate our freedoms and want the terrorists to win
No, I tend to agree with you. I'd be much happier if the US of A was fighting defensive wars, or just not fighting wars at all.

This is really something.

It is so obvious that those who forced this sermon giver out of place are serving two masters.

It is so clear cut that the US citizens have to support every war that its military engages in.

That anyone who can give light to those who are in darkness is muted, muddled, censored, moved, ridiculed, labeled and silenced. Thy shall not kill, very simple phrase yet SO many have not followed this simple rule and others are proud that they haven't. I pray that you may ask for forgiveness when you come to your senses.

Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

Christianity and peace? Can you find a bigger oxymoron?

We all know people have carried out all kinds of fun activities under the metaphorical flag of Christianity throughout the years. But have you taken a real good look at the end game of Christianity and thought long and hard about it?

It revolves around a huge planet/universe-ending battle that will be waged, and of course the "good" guys will win and the "bad" guys will be defeated at last. And it will be a happily ever after type story from then on out. Presumably forever?

Not to mention it's all about fighting "Satan" or "evil" every step of the way. Weather it be mentally, psychologically, physically, or anything inbetween.

This is not rhetorical: Let me ask the hardcore Christians of ATS this;
(I'm talking about the bible-thumpers. Not exactly the ones who follow Jesus' teachings only.)

If your god is all powerful, all wise, all knowing, all creating, and so on. Why would he/she/it even need to wage a war against anything? Or even encourage it. Wouldn't resistance be futile regardless? Wouldn't god have the power to ensure Satan had absolutely no chance in winning/corrupting from the start? It is apart of your prophecy after all. It clearly says that god and his followers ultimately win in the end. What are you trying to prove?

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: NthOther

So the Kansas City Star, which has a notable progressive bias in everything, says the guy was fired because of this sermon and everyone here leaps all over it? Typical.

For one thing, Selma is story about racism which has a narrative the country is fatigued about - whites bad, blacks good. America bad. IN a day and age where we only have to turn on the TV to get that same message yelled at us by the media every day. It's no surprise no one shelled out $20/person to see it in the theatre. I know I wouldn't.

Your white defensiveness is strange. I'm Spanish, and I've never taken a history class that didn't mention Spain's past. I never felt like mentioning historic fact meant that people hated me.

Do you honestly believe in your heart that blacks are always portrayed as good? If you do, you may have on black thug stereotype blinders.

You also seem bothered by black history, but they weren't the ones with the power to write it that way lol. From the time they where brought here, to the civil rights era (if we are being naive) they where heavily oppressed. I'm sorry you identify with the people on the other side, but blacks can't really tell the story of their history in America with out mentioning it in some way. Civil Rights activists are still alive today, and they lived lives worth telling a story about. It's natural and unavoidable. Why does that bother you so much? I feel like I'm watching inspiring people that have strong character, so why do you feel under attack? You are identifying with the wrong people if criticism toward racists hit you hard enough to activate defenses.

Also, when he says that equating Christianity with patriotism? Where is that even implied by anything? It basically sounds to me like he is saying we aren't a Christian nation and shouldn't hold any loyalty to our country or even care about it. Hello ... shades of Reverand Wright.

You don't have any room for a balanced message? Why should the war side be the only side with representation? The bible has war, and it has peace, so why can't we have both if this is indeed a Christian nation? Why do people who assert we are a christian nation with the most passion, also defend the option for violence as if it's the only one? I'm failing to understand how a priest giving a sermon for peace is at all controversial. Is that not expected of priests? If it's not expected, then you can't be offended when people start to question if it is truly a religion of peace.

You can do some things to make it peaceful, but lashing out in anger isn't one of them.

Then he goes on to say some stuff that sounds OK, until he starts making the implication that if we want our country to stay free, we are somehow not being Christian. Doesn't he realize that if we lose our freedom, we also lose our ability to be Christian? Isn't he aware that Christians in other nations are dying, often horribly, because they don't have their freedom? That because we are willing to defend our freedom, he can stand up there and tell us we should lose our freedom because that really shows how much we love God.

I'm not in favor of losing freedom, but I'm not willing to say our wars are always fought to protect them. I'd love it if our wars where to only stop genocide and for self preservation, but that's not the case. Our state of endless war is the main cause for our loss of freedoms. I'd love it if our government quit putting us in situations that will only make enemies. All war isn't bad, but it's not always good either, and I'd like to have some voices of peace when that's the case.

Then he starts railing about persecution. For those of you who think Christians have a persecution complex ... you either want to persecute us or you didn't read the entirety of this man's sermon. HE WANTS PEOPLE TO PERSECUTE CHRISTIANS. Maybe that's why those of you reading this piece said spot one? You'd like to persecute us and load us on cattle cars?

No wonder so many of you love his sermon.

Wow,he was canned for actually practicing what Jesus preached? Is the administration of this university that tied in with the military or that blinded by nationalism?