If true,then Ukraine's government is getting ready to run

originally posted by: Dimithae
a reply to: Xcathdra

And how did the US become its own country? By people appointing themselves as heads of state and writing a constitution and declaring us free. If you look back in Crimea's history,you see that since the break up of the USSR Crimea has been trying to either go back to Russia or become independent. Its only illegal for the rest of the world.For Crimeans its what they have been wanting,and they still aren't sorry for it.

The comparison is faulty based on the fact the colonists revolted against English Rule over non representation. In the case of Crimea Russia invaded then held a vote.

The French supported the colonists and provided assistance, weapons etc. That came AFTER the revolution started. in order for your comparison to hold we would need to have France invaded the American colonies and then hold a referendum. Even then, for the comparison to work, the only options would be independent yet slaved to France or join France.


As with the Russians living in east Ukraine / Crimea - They can either stay on Ukrainian territory or they can move back to Russia. USSR and Russian law recognized the borders of Ukraine, including Crimea.

originally posted by: Nikola014
a reply to: Xcathdra

Seriously?

This coming from a guy who alone created over 10 threads that are EXTREMELY anti-Putin/Russia oriented? What's the impression, laughing out loud?

I see you failed to read the posts to put my comment into context. If you are not going to bother to read and understand the posts don't bother responding to them.

Secondly his claim was false.

So we have debunked the sources for the op claim.

We have debunked the same old tired arguments pro Russians used in this thread and others.

whats next?

a reply to: Xcathdra

You will note any changes to deployment must be submitted to Ukraine for review AND approval. Also note Russians are not allowed into the countryside with weapons.

You note changes to who? Ukraine didn't had a government at the time. It was the time of the civil war, where people were being murdered on the street. No laws nor rules were respected in Ukraine.

You can try and spin it all you want but the fact remains Russia invaded Ukraine and illegally occupied Crimea and parts of East Ukraine.

That's not what am i doing.

I'm saying what I've been saying since the beginning of the civil war, which you know very well, since you and I were having this kind of discussion way back. Again, for all of you who do not understand me.
Russia wanted to protect their people. As i've said previously, people were being murdered on the street. No one could guarantee safety for a vast number of Russians living in Eastern Ukraine. They had a referendum in Crimea. The people of Crimea decided that they wanted to join Russian Federation. If you ask me, that's the definition of democracy. People having a choice to decide in which country do they want to live in.

I mean, you've been saying that the rebels are going to be defeated way way back. And look at what's happening. They are beating Ukrainian army and pushing them back. After this war is over, Crimea will not be a part of Ukraine, weather you like it or not.

a reply to: Nikola014

Yes Ukraine had a government at that time.

had you followed along - If Russia wanted to change its force deployment to the Crimean base it had to be submitted to Ukraine and approved by the Ukraine government. Russia failed to do that when they invaded.

You can play dumb all you want on how Yanukovych was lawfully removed from office, it doesn't change the fact he was in fact lawfully removed.

As for the last part -
Hitler wanted to protect Ethnic Germans. He used that as a pretext for war, just as Russia is doing. just like hitler, Russia could not provide the evidence to support their false claims.

Since you missed it the rebels were beat way back. When Russian realized the rebels were losing they poured their troops over the border, the Ukraine military started having issues. even pro Russian leaders have stated Russians are now fighting with them.

originally posted by: Dimithae
I came across this article and all I can say is that if this is true, I guess they are all getting ready to bail out seeing the writing on the wall. They have done some very unpopular things lately. When people protest now,they get beat up,their pensions and wages have been cut in half,they are in a war against their own people that they don't want to fight,serve in,or anything else,the people protest daily against all the cuts and the war and are not being listened too.

This country is a recipe for disaster.It seems that it is going down and those in so called power now know it. Passports to other countries,dual citizenship? Yeah time to go Fred.

fortruss.blogspot.com...

A question about your article -

I have found nothing other than sites linked to fortrus discussing this issue. Do you have any other sources talking about it?

a reply to: Xcathdra

Since you missed it the rebels were beat way back. When Russian realized the rebels were losing they poured their troops over the border, the Ukraine military started having issues. even pro Russian leaders have stated Russians are now fighting with them.

Since you are the one who wants to talk about "evidence", care to show us one for this claim? The last time i checked, there is ZERO evidence that clearly shows the presence of the Russian military operating in Ukraine. All you guys have are some funny stories about some the guardians reporters seeing the troops crossing the borders but unfortunately they didn't take their cameras with them, and some other stories that cannot be verified.

Haven't you ever wondered how come we don't have , at least, NOT ONE amateur video + picture taken by the ordinary people living there of this famous or better called phantom Russian army that's supposedly operating in Ukraine?

Hitler wanted to protect Ethnic Germans. He used that as a pretext for war, just as Russia is doing. just like hitler, Russia could not provide the evidence to support their false claims.

You comparing Putin and Russia to Hitler and Nazi Germany yet again? Man...

I wanted to reply to the rest of your post, but it's just useless...

a reply to: derfreebie

When you see the top leaders of the 'government'
arranging their own families' escapes, you know it's getting bad.

Except they aren't, because the protest was to get Ukraine to change the way they are handling the problem in the east.

They only asked for one official to step down...nothing like what the OP video is trying to say...the real story.

www.newsweek.com...

originally posted by: Nikola014
Since you are the one who wants to talk about "evidence", care to show us one for this claim? The last time i checked, there is ZERO evidence that clearly shows the presence of the Russian military operating in Ukraine. All you guys have are some funny stories about some the guardians reporters seeing the troops crossing the borders but unfortunately they didn't take their cameras with them, and some other stories that cannot be verified.

We have supplied it... Since you guys cant refute it you just ignore it and demand the same thing over and over -

@ Crimea - RT - Putin acknowledges Russian military serviceman were in Crimea

@ E. Ukraine - IBT - Russian Military Forces, Weapons Enter Ukraine, Confirms Prime Minister
* - NYT - Fears Rise as Russian Military Units Pour Into Ukraine
* - Bellingcat Investigations

originally posted by: Nikola014
Haven't you ever wondered how come we don't , at least, NOT ONE amateur video + picture taken by the ordinary people living there of this famous or better called phantom Russian army that's supposedly cooperating in Ukraine?

We have.. You guys ignore it.

originally posted by: Nikola014
You comparing Putin and Russia to Hitler and Nazi Germany yet again? Man...

If the Iron Cross fits, eh?

originally posted by: Nikola014
I wanted to reply to the rest of your post, but it's just useless...

Then reply and refute my arguments... It is as simple as that.

a reply to: Nikola014

The last time i checked, the are NONE evidence that clearly shows the presence of the Russian military operating in Ukraine.

Really...

But reports from Russia now acknowledge that Russian soldiers are part of the battle — though they are claimed to be volunteers, on leave from their army jobs.

The Russian TV channel NTV carried a report on the funerals of two Russian paratroopers who were killed while fighting in Ukraine. The men were buried with full military honors, including the Russian national anthem and a gun salute fired by fellow paratroopers.

www.npr.org...

I guess you should check again.

NOT ONE amateur video + picture taken by the ordinary people living there of this famous or better called phantom Russian army that's supposedly cooperating in Ukraine?

So you just expect them to have their uniforms on with insignias that show who they are?

You see that would show what most of us already know, and some keep trying to deny that Russia has troops in Ukraine. They also paint over any markings on their vehicles as not to raise suspicion especially with OSCE watching.

And you seriously wonder why do logical people ignore what you call "evidence"?
Bunch of random pictures, reports from msm, info's from social media and blogs prove absolutely nothing, because they show just that. Nothing.

We have.. You guys ignore it.

Untrue. Stop misleading people.

Then reply and refute my arguments... It is as simple as that.

Hate to break it for you man, but you don't have any arguments. You never really had any arguments, that's why were having same discussions like we did almost a year ago.
All you have is just some silly unverified stuff with only one goal and that is to push propaganda and completely mislead people with the lies( propaganda ) that you are presenting us and having the nerves in calling them proofs of anything.

I really don't have the strength in continuing discussions with you two Americans again...i will just back off and leave it to time to show people what's the true

a reply to: Nikola014

and not surprising your response has absolutely nothing in it to refute my position. Just dismissal with nothing to support your claims.

You know the saying, you can lead a horse to water...

moving on

a reply to: Xcathdra

I will see if I can find some more later. I am making dinner for us right now,sorry.
second line

originally posted by: Nikola014
And you seriously wonder why do logical people ignore what you call "evidence"?
Bunch of random pictures, reports from msm, info's from social media and blogs prove absolutely nothing, because they show just that. Nothing.

So you think a random blog, RT or a YouTube video that goes in your favor can be treated as gospel, but repeated photographic evidence of Russian tanks, open statements of Russian soldiers and rebels, plus the many thousands of secret graves of Russian soldiers and their many angry relatives all being reported through the press of all other countries BUT Russia, are all "evil west propaganda"?

None of you have yet to respond to the evidence of Russian involvement. All you do, over and over again is demand evidence, and then when it's presented you call it all propaganda.

None of you have once explained how Russian people are reporting the secret burials of their military friends and family. Please, we all know this is happening, there is a mountain of evidence showing all of this, STOP denying it, STOP ignoring it, STOP running away when these things are brought up.

The truth is you know all of this is happening and when you know you can't deny it convincingly you run away to another thread to bring up the same nonsense, until someone like the three of us challenge you with the same evidence.

Believe me, we are going to continue to ask you the same questions every time, and every time you're going to deny, deny, deny and attempt to distract away from having to respond to these questions. Nothing is going to change until you offer at least one credible response to the deaths and secret burials of Russians who are "supposedly" not fighting in Ukraine.

a reply to: Xcathdra

That makes no difference. If a group of people get together and decide "hey, lets form our own government",it doesn't matter whether you or I or anyone else likes it or not,or what the circumstances of that vote is,if it is the will of the people,then that is where its at. It is Democracy at its best. If you take that away from people or only allow it for some,then you deny people the right for self rule. Not what our country was based on,we should have no say in it for others.

a reply to: Xcathdra

You didn't help your case with this post. You may have even helped BornAgain make hers.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Why are you talking about Poroshenko? This isn't about the citizens being able to have dual citizenship,this is about their officials suddenly getting it for other countries.

originally posted by: Dimithae
a reply to: Xcathdra

That makes no difference. If a group of people get together and decide "hey, lets form our own government",it doesn't matter whether you or I or anyone else likes it or not,or what the circumstances of that vote is,if it is the will of the people,then that is where its at. It is Democracy at its best. If you take that away from people or only allow it for some,then you deny people the right for self rule. Not what our country was based on,we should have no say in it for others.

You just described exactly what happened in Kiev, but through some basic failure of logic you'll claim that Crimea was "self determination" while Kiev was "a fascist coup".

Really, give it up already. Crimea was INVADED BY A FOREIGN NATION.
Kiev saw a revolution by the people.

This is FACT.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

I know you aren't saying that I cherry picked,but the fact is anyway you cut it the citizens of Ukraine are not happy campers right now.And it will only get worse. This is what I was trying to show by the videos,irregardless of what they aren't happy about.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Why don't you call up Victoria Nuland and ask her what she thinks. Think you would get a truthfull answer out of her? I don't think so.

'F**k the EU': Snr US State Dept. official caught in alleged phone chat on Ukraine

rt.com...